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These Japan threads are always so fascinating to read. When pressed, everyone seems to roughly agree on two main ideas: 1. Japan has extremely low levels of m

These Japan threads are always so fascinating to read. When pressed, everyone seems to roughly agree on two main ideas: 1. Japan has extremely low levels of many of the problems that we have in Western nations. 2. The reason WHY they're so unaffected by problems that arise in racially-divided societies with fluctuating gender roles, is because they are a deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles. #1 plays into the common impulse on HN, Reddit, etc to dunk on the U.S. and the West in general. But #2 undercuts that, because Japan is far WORSE than us on many of the factors for which people dunk on us. They're MAGA Republicans with Pokemon! People tiptoe around this without really engaging with it in depth. Either because the cognitive dissonance is too strong, or else they're afraid of what people will think if they look at it directly rather than askance from the corner of their eye. For what it's worth, I'll take the messiness of modern Western society. Extreme fasciation with the Japanese way of life has always struck me as roundabout white supremacy or misogyny cloaked in a cosmopolitan facade.

kjkjadksj 4y ago
The argument that Japan is successful because its a monoculture is absurd. Some of the most corrupt or impoverished countries are also monocultural.
- manuel_w 4y ago
  > Some of the most corrupt or impoverished countries are also monocultural. Which ones are you talking about? Are you sure they just didn't end up being monocultural ones just because their impoverishedness contributed to a former multicultural country disintegrating along cultural lines? Not a historian, but that would make sense to me.
nemo44x 4y ago
> because they are a deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles. I think far more people than you’re probably comfortable with would say that’s a feature, not a bug.
- honeybadger1 4y ago
  [flagged]
- gadders 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    America is no more diverse than Singapore because every country is made of individuals each of which is unique and therefore perfectly diverse. We have chosen other arbitrary things which is weird since we say we are a melting pot.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Like, perhaps, Japanese people?
sofixa 4y ago
> 1. Japan has extremely low levels of many of the problems that we have in Western nations. > 2. The reason WHY they're so unaffected by problems that arise in racially-divided societies with fluctuating gender roles, is because they are a deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles. I agree, mostly on 1, but 2? I don't think many people would say their misoginy is in any way responsible for e.g. the order and low crime rates. Xenophobia maybe - it's easier to keep everything clean and orderly if everyone who lives there was born there and was indoctrinated in school to be a good orderly citizen. However, one of the problems they share with many "Western" nations but much worse, is the birth rate. They're looking at a massive demographic crisis because of their misoginy, and not helped by their xenophobia (e.g. some countries are relying on migrants to "fix" the low birth rates). > Extreme fasciation with the Japanese way of life has always struck me as roundabout white supremacy cloaked in a cosmopolitan facade. That is the impression I get frequently too, especially when it's put in a "it's clean and there's no crime because they're racially homogenous" way, which is quite disgusting. Singapore and Switzerland are also clean and with low crime rates, yet they're quite diverse in every possible aspect (cultural, ethnic descent, languages, religions). Haiti is in anarchy, yet relatively culturally, ethnically and religiously homogenous.
- mlindner 4y ago
  > However, one of the problems they share with many "Western" nations but much worse, is the birth rate. They're looking at a massive demographic crisis because of their misoginy, and not helped by their xenophobia (e.g. some countries are relying on migrants to "fix" the low birth rates). This argument about misogny being the cause of low birth rates kind of falls on it's face when you go back in history to when these countries had higher levels of misogny yet much higher birth rates. If you're JUST looking at the correlation, misogny rates correlates with HIGHER birth rates, not lower ones. (Correlation does not necessarily imply causation and all that, but there's a possible argument that could be made here but I won't make it.) Low birth rates the world over have a much higher degree of correlation with urban versus rural living ratios rather than anything else. When property costs per square meter/foot are high and you can't use your children to help your business there's a VERY strong incentive to not have children for economic reasons. (Historically most Japanese either had children working with their parents on farms part time or children helping run the family shop part time that was underneath the living area. That changed with the post-war economic boom.)
honeybadger1 4y ago
As someone who has traveled many places, and also an American.. I have no loyalty to America and would leave the moment my career allowed for it; straight to Japan. They just have higher standards.
- have_faith 4y ago
  An extreme but mean't in good faith question: would you fight for Japan if asked? assuming you lived there.
  - innocentoldguy 4y ago
    I would. My family is there.
    - pokepim 4y ago
      [dead]
  - olegious 4y ago
    Not OP but I wouldn’t fight for any country. I’d fight for my family and close friends.
  - honeybadger1 4y ago
    It is an extreme, but it's fair. I would not fight unless I was forced to fight. I am quite passive even though I own guns for sport purposes. If I was forced to enlist because of something traumatic, I would have to be in a indirect combat position(drones, communications,etc). The crux of what I was trying to say is that Japan, with all of it's modern cultural failings(harder life for women, heavy drinking culture, endless work hours) is still much closer to my idea of a modern utopia than anything else the world has to offer. This is 100% an opinion.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > They just have higher standards. To me it’s amazing how much people will contort themselves to find disqualifying fault in Japan or Singapore, etc but not also hold their own Western country to a standard. It’s line no one is saying Japan is perfect in every way. But if you’ve been there then it’s plainly obvious how much higher their standards are and their expectations for each other. It took about a day of being there to see they have the most fundamental quality any decent place has - order. And this is why their society is much nicer because from a foundation of order you can build amazing social systems. Look to Norway for a Western example. Or even a place like Denmark who accept the anarchists but keep them cordoned off and made into a tourism curiosity.
mrtksn 4y ago
I think this is a false equivalence as result of the attempt to fit what's happening there in Western mental models. I don't know anything specific about Japan but I see it happening all the time with Middle Eastern or Eastern European nations. The problem is, when you say something like that you start attaching other features of the western version and that often doesn't reflect the reality and doesn't have the historical context of the western version. For example, Turks are much more openly homophobes and antisemitic than people in the West but at the same time Turks were not exterminating the Jews and were not castrating the homosexuals a few decades ago. If anything Turkish academia was practically founded by the Jewish refugees when the west was busy fighting world wars. The same goes for the Eastern Europeans, a typical Eastern European would be much more racist and macho that a westerner but Eastern Europeans don't have a history of colonisation and slavery. Also, women have much older history of workforce participation and equal rights with men so for an Eastern European men the western culture wars and attempts to "make it right" through affirmative action don't rhyme at all(They are like "Men and women have equal rights? Duh? What's the fuss about"). You will also not find anti-abortion politics, gun rights stuff or anti-tax, anti-government libertarian stuff which you might attribute to typical right winger in the US. The similarities are very superficial. Just because you can identify a characteristic or two in a foreign person, doesn't mean that they are the same as the group of people from your society who have those treats. What’s even funnier is that western right wingers sometimes will mistake these things as Eastern Europeans being fascist and will preach how Eastern Europe is the land of the free speech. I attribute their affection for Russia and Putin to this. I had a smirking smile when one of the Chan board admins was disappointed when found out that Russia is not a free speech land, he was able to act however he likes only because it wasn’t bothering the Russians. The moment he touched a local hot button he leaned about the free speech in Russia.
- xorcist 4y ago
  I get the feeling you are trying to simplify the world so massively it ends up being non recognizable. Colonialism brought oppression, but oppression isn't necessarily colonialist. Only some countries has been colonial powers, but Turkey certainly was one of them. The holocaust was a specific event and not directly taking part doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Still, thousands of jews were deported to death camps. Wikipedia, as can be expected, has an article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_and_the_Holocaust . But every minority has their own story. There are yezidis, kurds, armenians and others. It is far beyond simplification to say that eastern Europe did not have colonialism and oppression. I don't think I need to go into details. The events of the past century are well documented.
piazz 4y ago
> Extreme fasciation with the Japanese way of life has always struck me as roundabout white supremacy or misogyny cloaked in a cosmopolitan facade. You're not wrong about the xenophobic tendencies and obvious monoculture, but the situation is far more complicated and nuanced that you're allowing. An example: I have a black American friend who's lived in Tokyo for 30 years and plans to be buried in Japan. He lives in Japan because he never has to fear for his physical safety due to the color of his skin, like he does in America. While he will never be seen as "Japanese", for him your xenophobia is more typically represented as wariness or caution around foreigners, people not sitting next to him on the train because he is tall and looks different, versus in America having to contend with actual white supremacy, racist police, and hate crimes. His story is far from unique. (As an aside, I think this is part of why these discussions about upsides/downsides of Japan are so interesting - it defies any simple explanation and the closer you look the more nuanced it becomes)
- prottog 4y ago
  I'm a visibly nonwhite minority here in the deep south of America with friends of every skin tone, including those who are black. Not once has anyone younger than 40 been afraid of his physical safety due to the color of his skin, other than being in places where physical safety was questionable to begin with. Perhaps the true point here is that in Japan it is very rare that anyone has to fear for his physical safety for any reason. I'd much rather live someplace where "actual white supremacy", to the degree it exists, is denounced by polite company, than a place where it is accepted in polite company that you're avoided for looking physically different and "no foreigners allowed" in businesses are common. As one who only came to the States as an adult, it's really confounding to me the degree to which it's understood that America is a racist and white supremacist country. I just don't get it at all.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    I'm not american so I have no experience with it myself. But I thought for example the birth of black lives matter movement was directly linked to black people feeling physically unsafe.
up2isomorphism 4y ago
You really can not simply categorize asking people to do good work/not legalizing drug/keeping a valid border as MAGA. "I'll take the messiness of modern Western society" until you get pushed into train tracks or become a victim of fentanyl overdose, you are actually not taking it, sitting somewhere in Colorado typing these thing is not part of the messiness.
- odessacubbage 4y ago
  describing a highly competent, domestically popular & highly trusted government as 'MAGA' is perhaps one of the most pro MAGA statements i have ever heard. the fact that in spite of all of it's problems and what is essentially at this point a whole generation of recession, japan continues to be a high trust society with civil services and infrastructure that is the rival of the rest of the world speaks very highly of the japanese system's integrity. consider that at the peak of our prior recession, many us state & local governments essentially ceased to function.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    > highly competent, domestically popular & highly trusted government Current approval rating of the Kishida cabinet is about 25%. The disapproval rating is 50%. To be fair, people are never happy with the government here, and come election time they’re always happy enough to not bother voting at all.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Japanese people complain about everything, especially when it's anonymous. Just look at Google maps reviews, or product reviews on amazon.co.jp: you'll see 1-star reviews for stuff just because something wasn't quite perfect. It's probably the same for the politicians; they complain, but the alternatives are worse in their minds. Plus, much of the population is elderly, and their preferences are quite different than the younger people you hear more from.
- riversflow 4y ago
  > become a victim of fentanyl. Fentanyl poisoning is >99.9% a result of the war on drugs. If you could purchase any drug OTC at a fair price, virtually no one would be risking their life on dodgy street drugs.
yibg 4y ago
1. Is verifiable from data, but 2. Isn’t obvious. It’s also a bit of a leap to equate Japan with MAGA, or at least in totality. Stance on immigration sure, but other aspects not really. Japan isn’t trying to ban abortion, or make a push for laws based on religion for example.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  Most of all, it isn't part of the global populist, reactionary conservative movement.
medo-bear 4y ago
> They're MAGA Republicans with Pokemon! ... and without all the war stuff ;)
- threadweaver34 4y ago
  That's just because America castrated their war machine.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- sattoshi 4y ago
  MAGA Republicans were always anti-war.
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
#2 undercuts #1 because what’s the point of all of it then?
yongjik 4y ago
> deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles Keep in mind that this doesn't just describe the modern Japan, it also describes South Korea, North Korea, China, and Japan of the past (with various militant/feudalistic governments). Just like any other region of the world, East Asia has a long history of unrests, rebellions, caste systems, and civil wars going back to the dawn of history. If your thesis is that a xenophobic monoculture society with traditional gender roles prevents "Western problems," maybe you should be more explicit about these Western problems and examine if the evidences really support that.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
flippinburgers 4y ago
Roundabout white supremacy? They are asians.

kjkjadksj 4y ago

The argument that Japan is successful because its a monoculture is absurd. Some of the most corrupt or impoverished countries are also monocultural.

manuel_w 4y ago
> Some of the most corrupt or impoverished countries are also monocultural. Which ones are you talking about? Are you sure they just didn't end up being monocultural ones just because their impoverishedness contributed to a former multicultural country disintegrating along cultural lines? Not a historian, but that would make sense to me.

nemo44x 4y ago

> because they are a deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles. I think far more people than you’re probably comfortable with would say that’s a feature, not a bug.

honeybadger1 4y ago
[flagged]
gadders 4y ago
[flagged]
- nemo44x 4y ago
  America is no more diverse than Singapore because every country is made of individuals each of which is unique and therefore perfectly diverse. We have chosen other arbitrary things which is weird since we say we are a melting pot.
adam_arthur 4y ago
Like, perhaps, Japanese people?

sofixa 4y ago

> 1. Japan has extremely low levels of many of the problems that we have in Western nations. > 2. The reason WHY they're so unaffected by problems that arise in racially-divided societies with fluctuating gender roles, is because they are a deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles. I agree, mostly on 1, but 2? I don't think many people would say their misoginy is in any way responsible for e.g. the order and low crime rates. Xenophobia maybe - it's easier to keep everything clean and orderly if everyone who lives there was born there and was indoctrinated in school to be a good orderly citizen. However, one of the problems they share with many "Western" nations but much worse, is the birth rate. They're looking at a massive demographic crisis because of their misoginy, and not helped by their xenophobia (e.g. some countries are relying on migrants to "fix" the low birth rates). > Extreme fasciation with the Japanese way of life has always struck me as roundabout white supremacy cloaked in a cosmopolitan facade. That is the impression I get frequently too, especially when it's put in a "it's clean and there's no crime because they're racially homogenous" way, which is quite disgusting. Singapore and Switzerland are also clean and with low crime rates, yet they're quite diverse in every possible aspect (cultural, ethnic descent, languages, religions). Haiti is in anarchy, yet relatively culturally, ethnically and religiously homogenous.

mlindner 4y ago
> However, one of the problems they share with many "Western" nations but much worse, is the birth rate. They're looking at a massive demographic crisis because of their misoginy, and not helped by their xenophobia (e.g. some countries are relying on migrants to "fix" the low birth rates). This argument about misogny being the cause of low birth rates kind of falls on it's face when you go back in history to when these countries had higher levels of misogny yet much higher birth rates. If you're JUST looking at the correlation, misogny rates correlates with HIGHER birth rates, not lower ones. (Correlation does not necessarily imply causation and all that, but there's a possible argument that could be made here but I won't make it.) Low birth rates the world over have a much higher degree of correlation with urban versus rural living ratios rather than anything else. When property costs per square meter/foot are high and you can't use your children to help your business there's a VERY strong incentive to not have children for economic reasons. (Historically most Japanese either had children working with their parents on farms part time or children helping run the family shop part time that was underneath the living area. That changed with the post-war economic boom.)

honeybadger1 4y ago

As someone who has traveled many places, and also an American.. I have no loyalty to America and would leave the moment my career allowed for it; straight to Japan. They just have higher standards.

have_faith 4y ago
An extreme but mean't in good faith question: would you fight for Japan if asked? assuming you lived there.
- innocentoldguy 4y ago
  I would. My family is there.
  - pokepim 4y ago
    [dead]
- olegious 4y ago
  Not OP but I wouldn’t fight for any country. I’d fight for my family and close friends.
- honeybadger1 4y ago
  It is an extreme, but it's fair. I would not fight unless I was forced to fight. I am quite passive even though I own guns for sport purposes. If I was forced to enlist because of something traumatic, I would have to be in a indirect combat position(drones, communications,etc). The crux of what I was trying to say is that Japan, with all of it's modern cultural failings(harder life for women, heavy drinking culture, endless work hours) is still much closer to my idea of a modern utopia than anything else the world has to offer. This is 100% an opinion.
nemo44x 4y ago
> They just have higher standards. To me it’s amazing how much people will contort themselves to find disqualifying fault in Japan or Singapore, etc but not also hold their own Western country to a standard. It’s line no one is saying Japan is perfect in every way. But if you’ve been there then it’s plainly obvious how much higher their standards are and their expectations for each other. It took about a day of being there to see they have the most fundamental quality any decent place has - order. And this is why their society is much nicer because from a foundation of order you can build amazing social systems. Look to Norway for a Western example. Or even a place like Denmark who accept the anarchists but keep them cordoned off and made into a tourism curiosity.

mrtksn 4y ago

I think this is a false equivalence as result of the attempt to fit what's happening there in Western mental models. I don't know anything specific about Japan but I see it happening all the time with Middle Eastern or Eastern European nations. The problem is, when you say something like that you start attaching other features of the western version and that often doesn't reflect the reality and doesn't have the historical context of the western version. For example, Turks are much more openly homophobes and antisemitic than people in the West but at the same time Turks were not exterminating the Jews and were not castrating the homosexuals a few decades ago. If anything Turkish academia was practically founded by the Jewish refugees when the west was busy fighting world wars. The same goes for the Eastern Europeans, a typical Eastern European would be much more racist and macho that a westerner but Eastern Europeans don't have a history of colonisation and slavery. Also, women have much older history of workforce participation and equal rights with men so for an Eastern European men the western culture wars and attempts to "make it right" through affirmative action don't rhyme at all(They are like "Men and women have equal rights? Duh? What's the fuss about"). You will also not find anti-abortion politics, gun rights stuff or anti-tax, anti-government libertarian stuff which you might attribute to typical right winger in the US. The similarities are very superficial. Just because you can identify a characteristic or two in a foreign person, doesn't mean that they are the same as the group of people from your society who have those treats. What’s even funnier is that western right wingers sometimes will mistake these things as Eastern Europeans being fascist and will preach how Eastern Europe is the land of the free speech. I attribute their affection for Russia and Putin to this. I had a smirking smile when one of the Chan board admins was disappointed when found out that Russia is not a free speech land, he was able to act however he likes only because it wasn’t bothering the Russians. The moment he touched a local hot button he leaned about the free speech in Russia.

xorcist 4y ago
I get the feeling you are trying to simplify the world so massively it ends up being non recognizable. Colonialism brought oppression, but oppression isn't necessarily colonialist. Only some countries has been colonial powers, but Turkey certainly was one of them. The holocaust was a specific event and not directly taking part doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Still, thousands of jews were deported to death camps. Wikipedia, as can be expected, has an article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_and_the_Holocaust . But every minority has their own story. There are yezidis, kurds, armenians and others. It is far beyond simplification to say that eastern Europe did not have colonialism and oppression. I don't think I need to go into details. The events of the past century are well documented.

piazz 4y ago

> Extreme fasciation with the Japanese way of life has always struck me as roundabout white supremacy or misogyny cloaked in a cosmopolitan facade. You're not wrong about the xenophobic tendencies and obvious monoculture, but the situation is far more complicated and nuanced that you're allowing. An example: I have a black American friend who's lived in Tokyo for 30 years and plans to be buried in Japan. He lives in Japan because he never has to fear for his physical safety due to the color of his skin, like he does in America. While he will never be seen as "Japanese", for him your xenophobia is more typically represented as wariness or caution around foreigners, people not sitting next to him on the train because he is tall and looks different, versus in America having to contend with actual white supremacy, racist police, and hate crimes. His story is far from unique. (As an aside, I think this is part of why these discussions about upsides/downsides of Japan are so interesting - it defies any simple explanation and the closer you look the more nuanced it becomes)

prottog 4y ago
I'm a visibly nonwhite minority here in the deep south of America with friends of every skin tone, including those who are black. Not once has anyone younger than 40 been afraid of his physical safety due to the color of his skin, other than being in places where physical safety was questionable to begin with. Perhaps the true point here is that in Japan it is very rare that anyone has to fear for his physical safety for any reason. I'd much rather live someplace where "actual white supremacy", to the degree it exists, is denounced by polite company, than a place where it is accepted in polite company that you're avoided for looking physically different and "no foreigners allowed" in businesses are common. As one who only came to the States as an adult, it's really confounding to me the degree to which it's understood that America is a racist and white supremacist country. I just don't get it at all.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  I'm not american so I have no experience with it myself. But I thought for example the birth of black lives matter movement was directly linked to black people feeling physically unsafe.

up2isomorphism 4y ago

You really can not simply categorize asking people to do good work/not legalizing drug/keeping a valid border as MAGA. "I'll take the messiness of modern Western society" until you get pushed into train tracks or become a victim of fentanyl overdose, you are actually not taking it, sitting somewhere in Colorado typing these thing is not part of the messiness.

odessacubbage 4y ago
describing a highly competent, domestically popular & highly trusted government as 'MAGA' is perhaps one of the most pro MAGA statements i have ever heard. the fact that in spite of all of it's problems and what is essentially at this point a whole generation of recession, japan continues to be a high trust society with civil services and infrastructure that is the rival of the rest of the world speaks very highly of the japanese system's integrity. consider that at the peak of our prior recession, many us state & local governments essentially ceased to function.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > highly competent, domestically popular & highly trusted government Current approval rating of the Kishida cabinet is about 25%. The disapproval rating is 50%. To be fair, people are never happy with the government here, and come election time they’re always happy enough to not bother voting at all.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Japanese people complain about everything, especially when it's anonymous. Just look at Google maps reviews, or product reviews on amazon.co.jp: you'll see 1-star reviews for stuff just because something wasn't quite perfect. It's probably the same for the politicians; they complain, but the alternatives are worse in their minds. Plus, much of the population is elderly, and their preferences are quite different than the younger people you hear more from.
riversflow 4y ago
> become a victim of fentanyl. Fentanyl poisoning is >99.9% a result of the war on drugs. If you could purchase any drug OTC at a fair price, virtually no one would be risking their life on dodgy street drugs.

yibg 4y ago

1. Is verifiable from data, but 2. Isn’t obvious. It’s also a bit of a leap to equate Japan with MAGA, or at least in totality. Stance on immigration sure, but other aspects not really. Japan isn’t trying to ban abortion, or make a push for laws based on religion for example.

wolverine876 4y ago
Most of all, it isn't part of the global populist, reactionary conservative movement.

medo-bear 4y ago

> They're MAGA Republicans with Pokemon! ... and without all the war stuff ;)

threadweaver34 4y ago
That's just because America castrated their war machine.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sattoshi 4y ago
MAGA Republicans were always anti-war.

LudwigNagasena 4y ago

#2 undercuts #1 because what’s the point of all of it then?

yongjik 4y ago

> deeply xenophobic monoculture society that restricts immigration and promotes traditional gender roles Keep in mind that this doesn't just describe the modern Japan, it also describes South Korea, North Korea, China, and Japan of the past (with various militant/feudalistic governments). Just like any other region of the world, East Asia has a long history of unrests, rebellions, caste systems, and civil wars going back to the dawn of history. If your thesis is that a xenophobic monoculture society with traditional gender roles prevents "Western problems," maybe you should be more explicit about these Western problems and examine if the evidences really support that.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

flippinburgers 4y ago

Roundabout white supremacy? They are asians.