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Tech companies are quietly defunding diversity pledges
- troynd 4y ago[flagged]
- ebbp 4y agoI also agree that drug misuse should be a capital offence, without due process.
- threadweaver34 4y ago[flagged]
- eropple 4y agoNobody picked Floyd as a "hero". He died, on camera, as a police officer joked around with his buddy while that officer killed him through undue force. Turns out being able to show it on the nightly news does stick a little.
- mynameishere 4y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> people who run the media made him a martyr specifically because he was a vile sort If “vile sorts” have no rights, none of us do. Injustice anywhere, may disagree with what you say but defend your right to say it; this is a common refrain across millennia on justice.
- ummonk 4y agoAnd he was murdered
- Tade0 4y ago> Industry Layoffs Are Hitting Black And Brown Workers Hardest Pardon the tangent, but I've always thought "brown" was a derogatory term. Is it not?
- hn_throwaway_99 4y agoNo, it is not.
- maxfurman 4y agoIt's often used to include people of color who aren't necessarily Black
- prepend 4y agoBut aren’t South Asians people of color? And overrepresented in tech companies. I’m not sure that brown people are underrepresented in tech or that these layoffs hit them harder. In fact, the article doesn’t share any data that the layoffs hit black people more than any other so if they are underrepresented in tech companies at only 7%, doesn’t that mean they would also be underrepresented in layoffs? So there are actually fewer impacted by these layoffs than non-black. In the US, black is a race so I think I understand the usage. But not sure what brown means unless it’s some offensive term for Latino. I don’t really think that people who have brown skin share many socioeconomic characteristics as they are many different races and ethnicities and cultures.
- Tade0 4y agoThat's what I was trying to get at - brown isn't terribly specific. Just about anyone living close to the equator is going to be at least brown in skin tone. I've only seen this term used to lump all these people together and deem them insignificant.
- 3pac 4y agoI think the author took a shot by capitalizing it. Capitalizing Black to change it from a race to an ethnicity is one of the best things to come out of the George Floyd/Black Lives Matter time. Making Brown a capitalized "other" though does not really make sense to me.
- newaccount2021 4y ago[dead]
- Gigachad 4y agoWouldn't this be expected when companies are pruning the lowest performers? They got an extra boost to get in the door, but naturally, some won't take advantage of that and will be dropped when times get tough.
- nivenkos 4y agoIt's not "lowest performers", these people aren't developers. They're literally hired as diversity leaders, etc. to write race-based PR pieces, etc.
- threadweaver34 4y agoThe FAANG I'm at bends over backwards to find diamonds in the rough, but for the most part, they weren't at even a second-tier tech firm for a reason. It reminds me of how Cal graduation rates went up when they couldn't use racial quotas.
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoProbably because to have a real impact in this problem, you need to start in elementary school. Otherwise, you are just fighting for a limited amount of talent rather than growing how much of that talent is available.
- threadweaver34 4y agoTrue. It's absolutely a pipeline problem, and "tech" isn't even the solution as much as improving educations overall. I also thing home environment has something to do with it, and there's only so much public schools can do there.
- nullfield 4y agoThere are only five companies in that list, and they’re all big enough that it should be possible for you to safely name-especially when you’re saying a good thing. We’d all benefit from your inside view of positive support for people with potential at some of the largest, sometimes hated for their perceived indifference/profit-above-all, tech companies.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deltree7 4y agoAlthough DEI is started with good intentions, it always, 100% results in rent-seeking activities and roles within an organization. DEI is cancer for firms and they can ill afford it during increased AI disruption and high interest rates age
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y agoThere's an implication here that 7% of the tech workforce being Black is an obvious indication of disparate treatment. Taking programmers as an example, the claim is that the industry is actively discriminating against Black workers for a 1:2 ratio, while at the same time fetishizing Asian employees by having them over-represented 4:1. Whites are also underrepresented. Is anybody investigating that? I'd be perfectly happy to support their cause if they provided evidence of discrimination to back their claims, but these accusations come off as sensationalist, statistically innumerate and lazy. Some U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers for reference: https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
- jasonjei 4y agoOn the flip side, aren’t Asians underrepresented in the NBA?
- teej 4y agoA professional sports organization that employs ~500 players total is irrelevant to corporate hiring practices.
- ergocoder 4y agoWhy not? An organization/team of 500 people should be expected to be diverse, especially in a desirable career path.
- ericmay 4y agoBecause the implication here is that the reason that diversity metrics are what they are is because of innate genetic talent for working at tech company which is nonsense. Relating that to the NBA wouldn’t make sense whatsoever.
- ohCh6zos 4y agoWhy would exclusive spots for top tier talent in an industry not include a genetic component when exclusive spots for top tier talent in a sport clearly does?
- nivenkos 4y agoGood, skin colour should be as irrelevant as eye colour. No room for racism.
- RangerScience 4y agoStrongly agree! That's why it's necessary to find the places where it does matter, and apply effort to changing that.
- dang 4y agoOk, but please don't post unsubstantive/flamebait comments to HN. This is a classic generic-ideological comment (i.e. reflexive repetition of common talking point on divisive topic, with zero new information). https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
- oa335 4y agoThe comments section of any article posted to HN that is related to race and diversity has become a predictable echo-chamber. Is there a way to filter these articles out? It’s honestly depressing.
- tempsy 4y agoDEI was a product of a zero interest rate environment
- nxm 4y agoI always saw it as a form of virtue signaling. Keep dividing people so that they don’t focus on the corporate profits and economic equality
- thedailymail 4y agoCould be a somewhat expensive form of signalling subsidized by cheap / easy money under ZIRP.
- version_five 4y agoI'd say more generally the product of not enough market competition. It's the equivalent of animals that evolve to signal fitness through useless plumage or ornamental antlers. The Canadian banks are a good case study in this regard (not just with respect to diversity). They have no competition and are completely undifferentiated so instead just focus on irrelevant fitness signalling that has no relation with the actual services they offer (which consist of exploiting monopoly power to a screw their customers). The same has been in effect true in tech, so we end up with initiatives like the one under discussion instead of focusing on a product or service
- threadweaver34 4y agoWhen you've got a hiring freeze and your stock is beat up, you don't need to recruit more talent (BIPOC or otherwise), and you don't need to tell the world how progressive you are. You need to prioritize projects and execute with strong teams. As an initiative, diversity distracts from that. Coinbase isn't in the business of being a platform for progressive politics. It's a platform for exchanging crypto, and it's explicit about it. Other companies aer quietly following suit.
- kelseyfrog 4y agoDespite the "World's Dumbest Idea[1]," the legal construction of corporations exist to provide net positive social benefit. This is a collective and subjective judgement, but when, in aggregate, the public's perception is that corporations aren't living up to their end of the bargain, the social contract is broken and a raging public is the last thing anyone needs. It typically ends very poorly for the targets of said outrage. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/06/26/the-origin-of-the-worlds-dumbest-idea-milton-friedman/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/06/26/the-ori...
- fallingknife 4y agoAnd racial discrimination is breaking that social contract because it is explicitly banned by the constitution and civil rights statutes.
- kelseyfrog 4y agoYep, that's my point. Buckling down because of market forces isn't a valid excuse. Social obligations don't have an off switch.
- Dalewyn 4y ago>(BIPOC or otherwise) This is going to be kind of tangential and I apologize for that, but allow me to say that as a person of Japanese heritage I fucking hate the term "BIPOC" and any related terms thereof. I'm a man, not a political object of convenience. If you must refer to my race for actually practical reasons, you can just refer to that than use a stupid term stemming from identity politics. If you need some generic way to refer, just refer to us as the minority because that's an objective fact. "BIPOC" is insulting, both to the individuals and their heritage.
- 56friends 4y agoNot sure how to interpret this conclusion: "Despite loud commitments of solidarity and support for Black communities after the murder of George Floyd, the tech industry, by and large, seems content to quietly overlook the business case for retaining employees of color and prioritizing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging." What is the business case for retaining employees of color other than having them as employees that benefit the company? This reads like companies should keep employees of color no matter what, essentially discriminating against everyone else and just virtue signalling.
- mshake2 4y ago"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth" - African proverb
- ohCh6zos 4y agoI'm glad I don't believe in that proverb or I'd be much more guarded against out groups.
- MattPalmer1086 4y agoSeems like a perfectly good proverb to me. It's saying don't create out groups that have no sympathy for you by excluding them from society. Not that you should increase your distrust of out groups!
- mnhn1 4y ago> According to a McKinsey report, nurturing organizational diversity leads to higher profit margins. The most diverse companies outperform their less diverse peers by 36% in profitability. >"DEIB leads to employee retention, which means there are actually savings on keeping employees in the company longer versus spending money on recruitment to fill those roles..." These are two points contained within the article, in the paragraphs leading up to the conclusion.
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- mshake2 4y ago>Some have sunset employee resource groups Worked at a place with ERGs. I had never heard of them before. In our company wiki, they were listed as places where people of the protected group could "share career opportunities" and help each other out. Seemed mega illegal to me. I asked HR how is this not discriminatory, and they said anyone could join the group, not just people of the protected group. But nowhere was that written down or communicated. Pretty sure I was put on a "list" for that line of questioning.
- Macha 4y agoERGs in the companies I've been in has been a way to redirect the organising types into something that is probably cost-neutral after considering the PR wins rather than have them focus on union-type things they might otherwise get into that are just straight up cost to the company.
- kitanata 4y agoI was fired from Panorama Education for being autistic after being told I didn’t belong there because I have trouble controlling my tone. The same people shouting off diversity initiatives and renaming “master” branches to “main” because they care about inclusivity ignore and marginalize those around them when it actually matters. It’s performative at best. Despite being very “out” as on the spectrum, despite presentations and knowledge sharing on neurodiversity and despite organizing and participating in a resource group they stood by nothing of what they preached. And yes, this is legit and yes I am suing them and yes my attorney is working completely on contingency. Panorama Education, a company dedicated to and attacked by the GOP for being “woke” is itself an ableist organization. Even the emperor wears no clothes. Most of these companies don’t actually care at all about any sort of DEIB initiatives… even the supposedly “woke” ones. It’s all a sham. Edit: This was a few months back. I lead an entire engineering organization now for a company who despite having no DEIB program is truely the most inclusive work culture I’ve ever seen.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gbanfalvi 4y agoYou might wanna consult with your lawyer about public posting while you're suing them. Otherwise, good luck.
- kitanata 4y agoIf they want to counter with a SLAPP or disparagement lawsuit they’ll only dig their grave deeper. I am not the least bit worried. The laws and the facts are on my side.
- sokoloff 4y agoGP was giving generally accepted as sound advice. Regardless of how things ought to be, seeking and considering the advice of your counsel while in a lawsuit is a good idea.
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- root_axis 4y agoDEI isn't measurable by counting the number of marginalized people in the room. It's totally possible and also extremely likely that demographics in any particular organization won't match proportions of the general population regardless of how the business operates.
- dwighttk 4y ago>For all the industry’s talk of representation, the tech sector has always been one of the least diverse. Black workers accounted for just 7% of the workforce in 2021. With recent cutbacks, that number has undoubtedly diminished. begging the question
- AndyNemmity 4y agoI'm certainly willing to accept the argument, however I cannot find the evidence of what they linked. "Recent research shows Black and Brown employees were disproportionately impacted in those layoffs." Links to https://www.zippia.com/advice/diversity-in-high-tech-statistics/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/diversity-in-high-tech-statist... Which doesn't even include the word layoff, is from 2022, and doesn't seem to address the issue at all. As I go through, this is consistent in the article. Make an argument, link to evidence, which doesn't include anything about your argument. I'd really like to read a better put together article on the topic. I think it's a very reasonable discussion, but I'm dissuaded to try and sort out it when they cite details that have no evidence i can see.
- epicureanideal 4y agoI can only hope this is true! DEI has been an increasing cause of active discrimination against majority-population groups, and gives powerful roles to the most jealous, historically uneducated, politics playing people in each company. It has made working on tech almost unbearable for many years. The sooner it’s over the better, and I hope we never go back to it. Not to mention that the longer DEI lasts, it will discredit any future attempts to address any actual issues with the distribution of opportunity in our society.
- paulryanrogers 4y agoWhat should future attempts look like?
- version_five 4y agoIgnoring irrelevant personal characteristics
- paulryanrogers 4y agoSo don't even try to address systemic discrimination? Future attempts should look like giving up?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- animitronix 4y agoThere would be no systemic racism if everyone ignored irrelevant personal differences, that's the point.
- _-david-_ 4y agoWhy just stop being racist when you can enforce racism as a means to not have racism?
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- deanCommie 4y agoImproving diversity was an investment - a long-term bet. This is what most people who were criticizing it (including elsewhere in this thread) never seemed to understand. It was never just "Lower the bar to hire more black people"). In an economic slow-down, investment in big long term bets invariably gets decreased. This is one of them.
- amalgamated_inc 4y agoName checks out :)
- adenozine 4y agoLet's just keep it real... In a practical, engineering environment, the talk of race and status has no place. If you want to code for a living, write good code, and do your best to find somewhere that will pay you adequately for your skillset. Once you're there, improvise and collaborate with your coworkers and use the resources at your disposal to get tasks/tickets done to the best of your ability. Nobody on earth can rightfully ask for any more of you than that. The more time you spend talking to your employer about your skin color, the less work is getting done, and in the long run that equates 1:1 to money. Do the work, take the money, and keep it simple. I think people need better mentors. They don't need diversity pledges and social justice initiatives in the workplace, I think they just need people to guide them along their path to becoming the best X that they can be, without judgment. That way the relationship is collaborative and nurturing, rather than threatening and adversarial like with these diversity movements. Keeping it skill-based is better for everyone.
- paulryanrogers 4y agoThis assumes everyone is starting from the same place. And that tribalism isn't an inherent human trait, or is so mild it needs no conscious effort to counteract. Some of us are born into privilege, and those who aren't do need some help to level the playing field. And that's likely at every stage of life, from forced integration of schools to extra grace for oppressed groups in the workplace.
- adenozine 4y agoI agree with most of this, however in practice, it doesn’t really go down this way. These large corporations often turn diversity goals into pseudo-business number games. To put it bluntly, they’ll hire a certain number of brown folks and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. I’m all for extra grace. I really, truly am. I don’t talk about this much, but my grandfather was murdered by a burglar many years ago. My dad visited that man over a dozen times that I can remember when I was growing up, and there’s a lot of other details and lessons surrounding this, but my point is that I understand what I believe to be the true nature of grace. Giving someone a job they don’t deserve because of their skin color is not grace, it’s tokenizing and patronizing, whilst simultaneously reinforcing the power structures that create the situation in the first place. No, a person should be given a job they don’t deserve because of the belief that they will be grateful to learn to do it well, and led to do so by a competent and compassionate mentor. It’s this weird quantification that holds back people’s understanding when it comes to race and status in the workplace. It’s about people, and it can’t be captured or comprehended by any form of spreadsheet or business initiative. If we want the situation for our neighbors to improve, we need to be good neighbors and help them, rather than saying “oh, well we should find sixteen more black neighbors to make our diversity quota.” If you’re one of those future neighbors, you suddenly realize that all you are is just some black person to fill a space, for numerical purposes.
- stbenjam 4y agoI’m sure I’ll be downvoted to oblivion but I enjoy working on diverse teams rather than a bunch of people exactly like me. The comments about DEI here are largely negative about the premise but there are legitimate benefits to having teams mirror the populations they write software for. It’s a shame people don’t do a little critical thinking about why it matters and instead spout right wing talking points. In practice though it’s all theater. When I asked if we could at least interview some people from under-represented groups for a new position I got a “we’ll look into it.” And they didn’t.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago> there are legitimate benefits to having teams mirror the populations they write software for. I've heard that claim, but I don't know of many concrete examples. Can you share some?
- secondcoming 4y agoSome UI designs might not work for people who are colour-blind, or have poor eyesight, for one example.
- luckylion 4y agoThat's not the kind of 'diversity' that's being encouraged though.
- emj 4y agoEDIT: I have no idea how this was seen as an attack comment. First of all your question is terse and I think you need to expand a bit more so we can understand exactly what you want to know. For example are there any of the very few examples in this thread that you do not agree with? As always when this is discussed people get into the "holier than thou" argument some thing like: "they are not for diversity because they do not think my aspects are important enough". Feel free to use them as good examples of why diversity is needed. I think you can find at least four arguments for diversity by reading the negative comments in this thread.
- iLoveOncall 4y agoThis article is so laughably transparent. None of those people care about diversity or inclusivity, they want more for themselves and found a trick to get it. Surprisingly they don't seem to mind that in my UK team of 15 people we only have two British citizens (I am not one of them myself) and 11 people of color, while White British represent 75% of the population of the UK. DEI is an absolute cancer for society.
- spoiler 4y agoI'm not sure how anecdotal this is, but I've probably interviewed at least 50+ candidates at companies I worked at before, and IIRC only one of them was black. It's not like my previous companies didn't want to hire people of colour, but there just weren't any around? The only black dev I know personally is my ex, and he was the only black person on his old team (of devs I mean, there were other black people at his company; it was a big media company) and is the only black dev at the new company he's at. So, these programmes seem to artificially increase the number of PoC in the industry by having a few large companies have diversity programmes, without actually affecting their market share (for a lack of better word) in the industry itself? Is this just the wrong way of thinking about it?
- spoiler 4y agoThe irony is that DEIs prioritising one group over all others is inherently racist, IMO. Also, it probably creates contempt among the discriminated groups, as the system is unjust towards them. Ie, there's no longer an equal equal opportunity at landing the job, since one side has an unfair advantage. So, instead of bringing people together, these forced quotas just push people more apart. I do understand that until 20 years ago black people probably had less chances to land these jobs due being disadvantaged by educational systems, but I think that's kinda behind us since universities also prioritised PoC admissions for a while now. I'm lucky to not have been affected by this personally, and don't know many who have. So, maybe it's irrational to think they discriminate against other groups (because it's difficult to find people to fill diversity roles in the first place). I don't know. It's a very complicated world we created for ourselves.
- mozman 4y agoGood.. this cancer should have not have spread so much. I hire my team from Eruope as DEI is illegal. All of this is rooted in racism.
- fallingknife 4y agoIt's illegal here too, but they just don't enforce it as long as you discriminate in the way they want you to.
- iLoveOncall 4y agoMy (huge) company has a whole DEI department in Europe, and they have many programs that are extremely racist and probably illegal, such as giving a special referral bonus to the person that referred the most Black people.
- drblastoff 4y ago(Redacted)
- MacsHeadroom 4y ago>57% in 2020 You're forgetting that most of that demographic shift are children. The white population over 25 is closer to 75% still.
- foverzar 4y agoA bit off-topic, but how do people actually feel about being diversity hires? Doesn't that feel... Demeaning? I've once had a talk with a CEO (a very technical one) of an ML/CV company, who told me a story of how some American company wanted to hire her as a female manager. She was super offended by this and declined. When asked why, she said that she wanted to be hired for her skills, rather than for her set of genitalia. So my question is: don't diversity hires feel devaluated? Or maybe I just underestimate the level of day-to-day discrimination in the US and the alternative is worse? P.S. I don't live in a western country so excuse me if any of this sounds insensitive.
- Dalewyn 4y agoI'm Japanese-American and have, thankfully, never experienced being a diversity hire. If I were presented with such a situation though, I would take that as an insult and refuse the offer or quit ASAP because I want to be judged for who I am rather than what I am.
- version_five 4y agoThis is just my opinion, there is a group of "professional diversity hires" - usually very well off but with some trendy ethnicity in their background that play it up and use their heritage to further their career. This diversity stuff basically pushes these people to the front of the line. There are also of course (as a majority) legit people from whatever trendy background that just want to do their job, and see all the fawning over "diversity" either as something to ignore (like most of us do). And then there are a few that choose to engage with it and see it as actively offensive, which it is when you think about it. So bottom line, my feeling is that the way "diverse" - trendily ethnic or genedered etc people feel about it is about the same as everyone feels about it
- jasongi 4y agoI don’t see this as any different to traditional office politics and the self serving “dark triad” personalities you come across. The key component of Machiavellianism is using whatever means you have. That could be in-group status OR out-group status, the result is the same. The label of “professional diversity hire” is harmful to those in the majority group you identified who aren’t playing that game. So just call it for what it is rather than enabling discrimination with a dog whistle.
- emj 4y agoI learned early on that you need people from many aspects from life in a workplace, it is just a lot better with more diversity in it for me. It is always an loosing battle because people usually employ people they understand, and that is going to be the closest to their own mold as possible. The only place I professionally did not fit in was a place where I had no one that shared my story no one to relate to. I know I could have given a lot to that place, but fitting in as a minority is really hard work. If you actively work on widening the type of people you employ it's going to be easier to fit in.
- braingenious 4y ago[flagged]
- woooooo 4y agoHow many of your coworkers, historically, would have freaked out at having to sit next to a black guy?
- braingenious 4y agoLiterally none. The same number of my coworkers that post online about diversity hiring being equivalent to a particularly insidious fatal disease! edit: I’ll add that as someone that has been in the room when my family had to make the decision to move a loved one with cancer into hospice more than once, I’m sure what you’ve (the posters talking about race cancer or whatever other grievance) seen is definitely the same thing!
- woooooo 4y agoSo I didn't post anything about cancer. And nobody posted that they really hope they don't sit next to a black guy. Maybe this tendency to demand total fealty or level accusations of racism is alienating people from your movement?
- braingenious 4y agoI clarified who I was referring to before you responded. Thanks for weighing in though! Have you heard of any studies about diversity being akin to a fatal disease or… are you just here to say you don’t like my post? edit: Can you point out what “my movement” is? I posted about how I thought some posts are silly. edit 2: I’ll respond to your response here! “ I think the DEI movement is full of grifters and dummies who think saying intersectional a lot of times makes something right, is what I think. It's a jobs program for humanities majors where we pay them to tell us how awful we are” Okay, so I’m part of “the DEI movement” (this isn’t something I’ve ever heard of but ok) Since all posts are motivated by movements, can you describe your movement?
- RestlessMind 4y agoI recollect tech co's touting their diversity efforts at least since 2016 US elections. What do they have to show for 6 years of efforts? Any objective improvement so far? If not, better to end this performative theater and let's do something which will actually move the needle.
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