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First car manufacturer. Waymo, Cruise, and probably others have had this for years.

by treis 4y ago

cogman10 4y ago
And what they are approved for is, frankly, pretty lame. It's lane keeping in stop and go traffic (under 40mph). Essentially, Tesla's EAP. Waymo is WAY beyond this, as is cruise.
- gerad 4y ago
  Honestly, I think this is pretty amazing. Stop and go traffic is the most annoying part of driving to me. Level 2 isn’t helpful as you need to pay constant attention with your foot over the brake in case the autopilot does something stupid. I don’t know why more manufacturers don’t focus on this.
  - cogman10 4y ago
    I have a Tesla with FSD from 2018 and it is indeed really nice in stop and go traffic. There are definitely situations where I don't trust the car, but keeping a lane on the interstate and creeping forward it does really well. It seems like something that other manufactures could also easily obtain with fairly little innovation.
    - MBCook 4y ago
      Lots of cars can do that, but the driver is still in charge. This system doesn’t require that, the driver can pay attention to other things.
    - newaccount74 4y ago
      Tesla and Mercedes are playing a totally different game. The Mercedes system only operates in narrow conditions, but you can watch Youtube videos while the car is driving. The Tesla system operates in almost any conditions, but you have to watch it like a hawk, and when FSD crashes the car Tesla will claim it was an operator error.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        Also just to be clear - Mercedes also has a system that operates in almost any conditions and up to 120mph, the system in question here that got certified as Level 3 is specifically up to 40mph where Mercedes accepts legal liability. You can still use their advanced cruise control systems above that but Mercedes won't accept legal responsibility and you have to pay full attention(same as in a Tesla).
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  Just posted and already people who don't really understand AVs are comparing Apples to Oranges (this to Waymo/Cruise) and Oranges to plastic Oranges meant for a doll house (Tesla) Waymo, Cruise and co are working with sensor stacks worth more than these vehicles with the idea that their vehicles will first be used for ridesharing. That already precludes most comparisons: it's a completely different model with completely different challenges. Meanwhile Tesla does not have a single product that allows you to do other things without liability. Their product is downright primitive compared to what Mercedes is shipping with this. When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. - Maybe people are misunderstanding because Mercedes says you need to be awake and able to take over? They don't mean Tesla's joke steering jiggle to indicate you're watching the road: they literally mean you only need to be awake and able to take over in 10 seconds. Other than that you can be checking your email, playing Candy Crush, even whip out your laptop and code. This is the first time you can legally use your time in traffic for something other than driving. If 30 minutes of your 60 minute commute are in rush hour traffic, you can now spend 30 minutes doing something else. (Also for those who won't read the article, Mercedes has a separate lane keeping product that activates above 40 mph, the distinction is that below 40 mph, Mercedes is taking full responsibility of the vehicle's actions and letting you take your eyes off the road)
  - cogman10 4y ago
    > When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. Look, I know this is a trope that people like to bring up a lot when hating on tesla. However, you have to consider a two points. * This happened in 2019, 4 years ago. Quiet a bit of development has gone into telsa's autopilot stack since then. * The car was going 70MPH. Mercedes's system only works up to 40MPH. For good reason. A telsa keeping the lane at 40MPH is fairly safe. These are not "miles ahead" systems, they are comparable. Now, what I'm not saying is whether one system is better/safer than the other. IDK because mercedes hasn't released their yet (I suspect you don't either). Mercedes being the "first" to apply for this in NV doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. The fact that they are limiting it to low speeds (40MPH) where a wreck will pretty much just be a fender bender should also tell you something about how confident they are in the system. Tesla has been reckless with the way they've managed their autopilot program. No doubt about that. They've also lied about being able to turn their cars into robotaxis (not a chance of that happening). However, their system is fairly comparable to what Mercedes is doing. Looking at the hardware Mercades is putting in the cars, the main difference is the forward facing LIDAR. That gives Merc an edge that telsa doesn't have, they can pretty confidently handle things like underpasses (where telsa STILL struggles and is a major issue with their hardware stack). My main critique of tesla is their hardware stack and dogged approach here to keeping it cheap (not enough redundancy, poor cameras). But that doesn't mean it's not still in a pretty similar league compared to merc.
- snotrockets 4y ago
  Tesla requires the driver’s full attention. Mercedes do not.
- timeon 4y ago
  > Essentially, Tesla's EAP Tesla has no Level 3.
vsskanth 4y ago
Full autonomy is different from level 3. Also it's important to note that they assume liability when L3 is in use. https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/mercedes-benz-takes-legal-responsibility-its-level-3-technology#:~:text=In%20March%202022%2C%20Mercedes%2DBenz,malfunctions%20in%20the%20manufacturer's%20vehicles https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/mercedes-benz-takes-....
amacneil 4y ago
Waymo and Cruise have level 4, but in tightly geofenced areas. Tesla have no geofence, but only level 2 (requires constant supervision). Which makes this is an impressive achievement! I believe it's the first level 3 system that you can purchase outright and not limited to specific cities. https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update
- tpmx 4y ago
  Yeah, I thought people here would celebrate something actually shipping, but instead there's so much moaning about this and that. Nationalism at its worst, IMHO.
- numpad0 4y ago
  > level 4, but in tightly geofenced areas. Tesla have no geofence Can we get past this? Practically none of SDCs rely on geofence, not like precomputed routes and paths are necessary. Those are just for safety and for managing complexity for experiments. It’s like trying to ridicule someone in a yellow vest for having to mind safety. Just pathetic.
akmarinov 4y ago
Great, where can I buy a Waymo car?

First car manufacturer. Waymo, Cruise, and probably others have had this for years.

by treis 4y ago

First car manufacturer. Waymo, Cruise, and probably others have had this for years.

And what they are approved for is, frankly, pretty lame. It's lane keeping in stop and go traffic (under 40mph). Essentially, Tesla's EAP. Waymo is WAY beyond this, as is cruise.

gerad 4y ago
Honestly, I think this is pretty amazing. Stop and go traffic is the most annoying part of driving to me. Level 2 isn’t helpful as you need to pay constant attention with your foot over the brake in case the autopilot does something stupid. I don’t know why more manufacturers don’t focus on this.
- cogman10 4y ago
  I have a Tesla with FSD from 2018 and it is indeed really nice in stop and go traffic. There are definitely situations where I don't trust the car, but keeping a lane on the interstate and creeping forward it does really well. It seems like something that other manufactures could also easily obtain with fairly little innovation.
  - MBCook 4y ago
    Lots of cars can do that, but the driver is still in charge. This system doesn’t require that, the driver can pay attention to other things.
  - newaccount74 4y ago
    Tesla and Mercedes are playing a totally different game. The Mercedes system only operates in narrow conditions, but you can watch Youtube videos while the car is driving. The Tesla system operates in almost any conditions, but you have to watch it like a hawk, and when FSD crashes the car Tesla will claim it was an operator error.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      Also just to be clear - Mercedes also has a system that operates in almost any conditions and up to 120mph, the system in question here that got certified as Level 3 is specifically up to 40mph where Mercedes accepts legal liability. You can still use their advanced cruise control systems above that but Mercedes won't accept legal responsibility and you have to pay full attention(same as in a Tesla).
BoorishBears 4y ago
Just posted and already people who don't really understand AVs are comparing Apples to Oranges (this to Waymo/Cruise) and Oranges to plastic Oranges meant for a doll house (Tesla) Waymo, Cruise and co are working with sensor stacks worth more than these vehicles with the idea that their vehicles will first be used for ridesharing. That already precludes most comparisons: it's a completely different model with completely different challenges. Meanwhile Tesla does not have a single product that allows you to do other things without liability. Their product is downright primitive compared to what Mercedes is shipping with this. When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. - Maybe people are misunderstanding because Mercedes says you need to be awake and able to take over? They don't mean Tesla's joke steering jiggle to indicate you're watching the road: they literally mean you only need to be awake and able to take over in 10 seconds. Other than that you can be checking your email, playing Candy Crush, even whip out your laptop and code. This is the first time you can legally use your time in traffic for something other than driving. If 30 minutes of your 60 minute commute are in rush hour traffic, you can now spend 30 minutes doing something else. (Also for those who won't read the article, Mercedes has a separate lane keeping product that activates above 40 mph, the distinction is that below 40 mph, Mercedes is taking full responsibility of the vehicle's actions and letting you take your eyes off the road)
- cogman10 4y ago
  > When a Tesla murdered a man by slamming him into a highway barrier, the fact his phone had run Candy Crush at some point during the drive was dragged out against him. Look, I know this is a trope that people like to bring up a lot when hating on tesla. However, you have to consider a two points. * This happened in 2019, 4 years ago. Quiet a bit of development has gone into telsa's autopilot stack since then. * The car was going 70MPH. Mercedes's system only works up to 40MPH. For good reason. A telsa keeping the lane at 40MPH is fairly safe. These are not "miles ahead" systems, they are comparable. Now, what I'm not saying is whether one system is better/safer than the other. IDK because mercedes hasn't released their yet (I suspect you don't either). Mercedes being the "first" to apply for this in NV doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. The fact that they are limiting it to low speeds (40MPH) where a wreck will pretty much just be a fender bender should also tell you something about how confident they are in the system. Tesla has been reckless with the way they've managed their autopilot program. No doubt about that. They've also lied about being able to turn their cars into robotaxis (not a chance of that happening). However, their system is fairly comparable to what Mercedes is doing. Looking at the hardware Mercades is putting in the cars, the main difference is the forward facing LIDAR. That gives Merc an edge that telsa doesn't have, they can pretty confidently handle things like underpasses (where telsa STILL struggles and is a major issue with their hardware stack). My main critique of tesla is their hardware stack and dogged approach here to keeping it cheap (not enough redundancy, poor cameras). But that doesn't mean it's not still in a pretty similar league compared to merc.
snotrockets 4y ago
Tesla requires the driver’s full attention. Mercedes do not.
timeon 4y ago
> Essentially, Tesla's EAP Tesla has no Level 3.

vsskanth 4y ago

Full autonomy is different from level 3. Also it's important to note that they assume liability when L3 is in use. https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/mercedes-benz-takes-legal-responsibility-its-level-3-technology#:~:text=In%20March%202022%2C%20Mercedes%2DBenz,malfunctions%20in%20the%20manufacturer's%20vehicles https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/mercedes-benz-takes-....

amacneil 4y ago

Waymo and Cruise have level 4, but in tightly geofenced areas. Tesla have no geofence, but only level 2 (requires constant supervision). Which makes this is an impressive achievement! I believe it's the first level 3 system that you can purchase outright and not limited to specific cities. https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update

tpmx 4y ago
Yeah, I thought people here would celebrate something actually shipping, but instead there's so much moaning about this and that. Nationalism at its worst, IMHO.
numpad0 4y ago
> level 4, but in tightly geofenced areas. Tesla have no geofence Can we get past this? Practically none of SDCs rely on geofence, not like precomputed routes and paths are necessary. Those are just for safety and for managing complexity for experiments. It’s like trying to ridicule someone in a yellow vest for having to mind safety. Just pathetic.

akmarinov 4y ago

Great, where can I buy a Waymo car?