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I wonder how big the market is for this. Despite being an actually nice language, Swift is not that popular outside Apple's ecosystem, so I guess most developer

by d12bb 4y ago

I wonder how big the market is for this. Despite being an actually nice language, Swift is not that popular outside Apple's ecosystem, so I guess most developers would use XCode for it's integration (with Apple Developer, SwiftUI/preview etc).

ianbutler 4y ago
I am more likely to try Swift, if I can use it in my existing tools. So maybe the play is to make it more popular.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
Slowly but surely things are getting better in terms of cross-platform, with the latest in that realm being Apple itself committing to an open source rewrite of Foundation, which will fill in some holes and improve consistency on non-apple platforms. Swift on server has been usable for a while now too. I think the next big bottleneck on popularity will be tooling, and a solid VS Code extension is a small step forward in addressing that issue. As someone who’s been using Swift for years on iOS/macOS, I’d love to use it for desktop development on Windows and Linux. I think the language is well suited for that purpose, and it strikes a nice balance between safety, speed, features, ease of writing, and clean syntax which isn’t matched by too many other languages.
isodev 4y ago
The use case is mainly for writing packages, command line tools or server side components where the Swift toolchains are quite nice to work with. The experience is very much like using Rust or Go.
n0us 4y ago
For me XCode is just so so bad for actual code editing so I edit the code in VSCode and run it through XCode
- russellbeattie 4y ago
  I agree. I personally find XCode absolutely bewildering. The several times I've tried to do anything with it, I just gave up and found an alternative. My guess is that if you've been using Apple tools for years, then it makes sense, but to me it's indecipherable. The menu options don't seem to match with the GUI, resource views don't seem to match the files, random panels appear with unnecessary information, resources are needed for unclear reasons and more. It's all very Apple, but in the worst way possible. It's like the IDE version of AppleScript - seemingly useable but based on a logic which totally escapes me.
adenozine 4y ago
It’s such a shame, i really envy some of the features in Swift but I just can’t justify the risk with how Apple-centric it is. Too many times I’ve been bitten by ducks that quacked just like that one, I suppose. I’d love to see like a gccSwift the way there’a a gccRust coming together. I think that would be really cool.
tomashubelbauer 4y ago
I don't think XCode is exactly popular or viewed as anything other than necessary evil by many Swift app developers. Like a sibling comment mentioned, many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff because it is just so ass. Get the compiler invocation experience and maybe even the Apple Developer integration to a decent enough shape in a VS Code extension and XCode can start counting its days methinks.
- jalino23 4y ago
  this is what I do with visual studio for unreal engine as well. I only use it to compile and edit my code with helix
- yakubin 4y ago
  I’ve only started learning Swift, so I don’t know how it performs on bigger projects, but so far I’ve been loving playgrounds, if not for the dog-slow compilation, but that’s in-character for all LLVM-based compilers, so maybe not exactly XCode’s fault.
- alexashka 4y ago
  > many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff If by many, you mean less than 1%, then yes. :)
  - yinser 4y ago
    Did you survey developers or care to qualify your statement?
    - sbuk 4y ago
      Equally wouldn’t it have been better had the OP backed up their claim?
- marcellus23 4y ago
  > many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff I've never met anyone who actually does this. JetBrains is even discontinuing AppCode, which as far as I know was the only real alternative IDE (and it had a lot of holes in its functionality). Xcode lacks decent refactoring tools but otherwise it's a perfectly fine IDE, and has some really powerful debugging abilities. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Apple is giving it the attention it deserves, but in my experience most people hate it just because it isn't IntelliJ or VSCode.
comprev 4y ago
Developers rarely use XCode out of choice, at least from the iOS devs I know. It also opens up the potential for development on non-Apple equipment if the CI can handle builds.
- akmarinov 4y ago
  You can already develop Swift code on non-Apple equipment You can’t develop for iOS as their frameworks are as of now (this is changing, they’re rewriting Foundation) tied to macOS, so this doesn’t change much
mrtksn 4y ago
Well, with WASM everywhere I think that it might realize some of its potential as tooling improves. Don't you want to write your algorithms and data structures in such a nice language? Slap the native UI, when in iOS its SwiftUI and when on the web its ReactJS or something and when its on Android its whatever Android uses but have your actual processing of the user inputs in Swift. The traditional cross platform approach is to write it in JS and use the native UI framework API, which works but its not native anywhere and you have to write JS. So instead of doing that, you can start with Apple platforms and port to the other platform where porting would mean just UI and device specific API implementation as the Swift can be portable. You wouldn't be trying to build native UI with Swift but you would use the Swift code as a service which handles everything except the UI where the UI implementation will communicate with your Swift code. The advantages are: 1) Working with Swift, which is pleasant to work with. 2) Apple's all platforms are on the same architecture and as a result, running your code for mobile on your dev machine works at full speed. This means, even the cheapest Apple Silicon device provides great performance on your workflow. No more sluggish emulators. 3) Preserve the data structures across all platforms and these data structures are not JS data structures. You have integers for example :). Categories of bugs and work to make things fit vanish.
- scns 4y ago
  KotlinNative might offer the same, don't know how mature it is though.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    It is so mature that JetBrains is using Rust instead for Fleet.
lockhouse 4y ago
Fun fact, Swift is actually available in Fedora Linux’s default repos. It’s just “dnf install swift” and you’re all set. I would love to see more Swift adoption, I know at one point IBM was investing in it for server-side programming, but I think they’ve abandoned that. It seems to be a nice sweet spot of relatively easy to code, expressive, powerful, memory safe, and performant.

by d12bb 4y ago

ianbutler 4y ago

I am more likely to try Swift, if I can use it in my existing tools. So maybe the play is to make it more popular.

kitsunesoba 4y ago

Slowly but surely things are getting better in terms of cross-platform, with the latest in that realm being Apple itself committing to an open source rewrite of Foundation, which will fill in some holes and improve consistency on non-apple platforms. Swift on server has been usable for a while now too. I think the next big bottleneck on popularity will be tooling, and a solid VS Code extension is a small step forward in addressing that issue. As someone who’s been using Swift for years on iOS/macOS, I’d love to use it for desktop development on Windows and Linux. I think the language is well suited for that purpose, and it strikes a nice balance between safety, speed, features, ease of writing, and clean syntax which isn’t matched by too many other languages.

isodev 4y ago

The use case is mainly for writing packages, command line tools or server side components where the Swift toolchains are quite nice to work with. The experience is very much like using Rust or Go.

n0us 4y ago

For me XCode is just so so bad for actual code editing so I edit the code in VSCode and run it through XCode

russellbeattie 4y ago
I agree. I personally find XCode absolutely bewildering. The several times I've tried to do anything with it, I just gave up and found an alternative. My guess is that if you've been using Apple tools for years, then it makes sense, but to me it's indecipherable. The menu options don't seem to match with the GUI, resource views don't seem to match the files, random panels appear with unnecessary information, resources are needed for unclear reasons and more. It's all very Apple, but in the worst way possible. It's like the IDE version of AppleScript - seemingly useable but based on a logic which totally escapes me.

adenozine 4y ago

It’s such a shame, i really envy some of the features in Swift but I just can’t justify the risk with how Apple-centric it is. Too many times I’ve been bitten by ducks that quacked just like that one, I suppose. I’d love to see like a gccSwift the way there’a a gccRust coming together. I think that would be really cool.

tomashubelbauer 4y ago

I don't think XCode is exactly popular or viewed as anything other than necessary evil by many Swift app developers. Like a sibling comment mentioned, many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff because it is just so ass. Get the compiler invocation experience and maybe even the Apple Developer integration to a decent enough shape in a VS Code extension and XCode can start counting its days methinks.

jalino23 4y ago
this is what I do with visual studio for unreal engine as well. I only use it to compile and edit my code with helix
yakubin 4y ago
I’ve only started learning Swift, so I don’t know how it performs on bigger projects, but so far I’ve been loving playgrounds, if not for the dog-slow compilation, but that’s in-character for all LLVM-based compilers, so maybe not exactly XCode’s fault.
alexashka 4y ago
> many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff If by many, you mean less than 1%, then yes. :)
- yinser 4y ago
  Did you survey developers or care to qualify your statement?
  - sbuk 4y ago
    Equally wouldn’t it have been better had the OP backed up their claim?
marcellus23 4y ago
> many people already use other IDEs to write the code and just use XCode to compile stuff I've never met anyone who actually does this. JetBrains is even discontinuing AppCode, which as far as I know was the only real alternative IDE (and it had a lot of holes in its functionality). Xcode lacks decent refactoring tools but otherwise it's a perfectly fine IDE, and has some really powerful debugging abilities. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Apple is giving it the attention it deserves, but in my experience most people hate it just because it isn't IntelliJ or VSCode.

comprev 4y ago

Developers rarely use XCode out of choice, at least from the iOS devs I know. It also opens up the potential for development on non-Apple equipment if the CI can handle builds.

akmarinov 4y ago
You can already develop Swift code on non-Apple equipment You can’t develop for iOS as their frameworks are as of now (this is changing, they’re rewriting Foundation) tied to macOS, so this doesn’t change much

mrtksn 4y ago

Well, with WASM everywhere I think that it might realize some of its potential as tooling improves. Don't you want to write your algorithms and data structures in such a nice language? Slap the native UI, when in iOS its SwiftUI and when on the web its ReactJS or something and when its on Android its whatever Android uses but have your actual processing of the user inputs in Swift. The traditional cross platform approach is to write it in JS and use the native UI framework API, which works but its not native anywhere and you have to write JS. So instead of doing that, you can start with Apple platforms and port to the other platform where porting would mean just UI and device specific API implementation as the Swift can be portable. You wouldn't be trying to build native UI with Swift but you would use the Swift code as a service which handles everything except the UI where the UI implementation will communicate with your Swift code. The advantages are: 1) Working with Swift, which is pleasant to work with. 2) Apple's all platforms are on the same architecture and as a result, running your code for mobile on your dev machine works at full speed. This means, even the cheapest Apple Silicon device provides great performance on your workflow. No more sluggish emulators. 3) Preserve the data structures across all platforms and these data structures are not JS data structures. You have integers for example :). Categories of bugs and work to make things fit vanish.

scns 4y ago
KotlinNative might offer the same, don't know how mature it is though.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  It is so mature that JetBrains is using Rust instead for Fleet.

lockhouse 4y ago

Fun fact, Swift is actually available in Fedora Linux’s default repos. It’s just “dnf install swift” and you’re all set. I would love to see more Swift adoption, I know at one point IBM was investing in it for server-side programming, but I think they’ve abandoned that. It seems to be a nice sweet spot of relatively easy to code, expressive, powerful, memory safe, and performant.