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When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some rea

When I moved to Canada, at age 16-17 I initially failed a lot of job applications at places like Staples, Future Shop, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc. For some reason, many of them had a type of "Corporate Personality Test" on their application, and asked the same "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". Apparently this was an automatic deal-breaker; there was no follow-up - no "HAVE you ever stolen" or "WOULD you ever steal from your employer", or "why were you considering it" or anything like that. My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" (as in, thought about, crossed my mind, evaluated, etc). Similarly, years later it actually took my Canadian therapist a little while to adjust as well when he asked if I ever considered suicide and I cheerfully replied "Yes!" (I'm not suicidal, in the least, by any of the normal metrics; but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). I don't know what other people do with their brains; my wife falls asleep within 30 seconds of her head hitting the pillow, my mind insists on spending an hour or three "considering" things I apparently shouldn't put on a job application lol :-)

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Probably because you were overthinking it. You're thinking in terms of grey while they're testing to ensure that you have at least a basic understanding of black and white.
voisin 4y ago
Mindfulness meditation may help calm the racing mind.
- geomark 4y ago
  I did that while taking a polygraph administered by a representative of a three letter agency. He said I was being deceptive.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Did you explain that you were just pretending to be deceptive, b it were in fact fully cooperating?
    - geomark 4y ago
      It was clear the examiner had no sense of humor. So no. But when he said I was being deceptive I asked "In what way?" And he said "You tell me." And so we ended in a standoff.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Thanks, I've heard that over time; I've tried a bit of mindfulness over the years and I see the value in it, I just haven't been able to harness it yet. I've tried some guided audio body focus mindfulness/meditation and 1. Most of it tries too hard and loses me with "Third Eye" and "Spirit world" "and chakra energy frequency balance" 2. Most of it starts from toes and turns out I need to start from center (ridiculous preference but apparently true for me:) and 3. Most importantly, unsurprisingly, I suck at it. I keep trying every now and then; maybe I'll give it another go :)
  - hackingthelema 4y ago
    Abandon guided meditations and audio-based meditations, and focus to a simple programme of breath-focus. You just: 1. sit quietly and comfortably 2. breathe through your nose 3. find the feeling of air moving in and out of your nose 4. observe that feeling of air 5. if your mind starts observing other thoughts instead of the breath feeling -- 'I have an itch', 'this sitting position is uncomfortable', 'what about my meeting tomorrow' -- you notice your observation has left the air-in-your-nose feeling, and you gently redirect it back to focusing on that instead of the thoughts. 6. Repeat. You'll slowly increase from 2-3 seconds of focus to minutes at a time. > 3. Most importantly, unsurprisingly, I suck at it. I keep trying every now and then; maybe I'll give it another go :) You're better off with 3-5 minutes daily, regularly, than with longer sessions sporadically. It's a matter of practice and getting the knack of concentration down. Slowly increase to 10-15 minutes a day over a month or two, and really focus on getting the technique mastered more than anything. The book Mindfulness in Plain English is both available freely online, and my favourite guide to getting it right.
    - ufmace 4y ago
      This is basically the idea. Exact techniques vary, but the point is to keep gently re-focusing on something minor and physical. It doesn't really matter what it is, scan direction vs breath flow vs something else, none of it matters, just pick one and work on focusing.
      - 4y ago
screamingninja 4y ago
I would think that you have been using the word "considered" rather lightly. To me, it means careful thought and deliberation, not just "the thought crossed my mind at some point".
- threatofrain 4y ago
  And there are many who do use “considered” to mean that a thought crossed their mind. Surely this does not shock you. The problem is not the interpretation of a word. The problem is how the ocean of other people answered this question. There comes a point when being honest is completely stupid, and when most people use the word honesty they don’t mean to cross into the completely stupid territory. That being said I’d consider such a person to be a fine candidate for friendship.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    Perhaps filtering out stupid people is the goal of the question. No one is completely honest. Courtesy is the art of lying.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- rcfox 4y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. If you spend a lot of time mentally disengaged, (walking, exercising, commuting, etc.) you have lots of opportunities to deeply consider many things that you have no intention of doing.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Yes and No. I have "Considered" stealing from my employer several times. When I was 15 I was a refugee and worked in a Radio-Shack-like store in Croatia. We built PCs in back and sold them in the front. The front and back were separated by a curtain, and highest value items (ram sticks) happened to be stashed on the shelf on the side of the entrance. I realized it would take literally 5 seconds for a customer to reach through the curtain and grab them. That got me thinking on whether as an insider I would have higher or lower risk than a random customer. How could I reduce the risk? What's a simple, non-overly-elaborate method that would let me accomplish this? So I did spend some time considering this problem space (and then next day suggested to my boss to move the RAM further inside:) Similarly with suicide. Everybody's life is hard and has ups and downs. I've "considered" suicide in several different ways many times in my life, sometimes at "obvious" times of hardship, otherwise at simply slow, boring times. I'm largely a cheerful optimistic person FWIW, but I find everything interesting even fascinating, including that particular life (ending) choice. Talking to couple of my closest oldest friends, who are most similar to me, they have few mental taboos. But talking to most other people, at least as far as they're willing to be honest with me and/or themselves, they have never considered SO MANY topics, virtually regardless of how light or heavy we define the word.
werdnapk 4y ago
In a similar vein... while driving down the road, have you ever "considered" just pulling into the opposing lane? I'd never ever do that, but I've considered others driving into my lane, which leads me to consider myself doing that to their lane. Lots of other similar "I'd never do that" situations I've definitely considered. I admire your honesty though. 99% of people would lie.
- jat850 4y ago
  L'appel du vide in one of its more commonly manifested forms.
- Jerrrry 4y ago
  The call of the void is a natural instinct evolved to help judge possibly (dis)advantageous choices. As long as you label it as an "intrusive thought," and it isn't incredibly (daily) common, that is perfectly normal.
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    I always figured that the "call of the void" was to illustrate to us what a careless movement could lead to. So that we will shy away from the edge or constantly second guess our movements for danger while we remain.
- ShroudedNight 4y ago
  "Uh-uh-uh - Turning the car into oncoming traffic ... is counter productive!" has been a Jim Carrey tag-line for decades: https://youtu.be/4YnslaUd4VY https://youtu.be/4YnslaUd4VY
- devin 4y ago
  At a family gathering we were all sharing we've considered this while driving. Not specifically veering into oncoming traffic but "what if" things like letting go of the wheel, intentionally driving into a ditch at high speed, etc. One person in my family claims they've never had this thought ever, and it truly baffles me.
foobarbecue 4y ago
I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?
- SpaceL10n 4y ago
  I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    [Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!
    - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
      Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.
      - foobarbecue 4y ago
        Vouching for this. It's off-topic and a little inflammatory but I started that, and it taught me the word kayfabe. Thanks to dang for introducing me to the vouch feature.
    - foobarbecue 4y ago
      I'm sad that Slava_Propanei's comment below is dead. I'm stoked to learned the word "keyfabe."
      - 4y ago
frogpelt 4y ago
On the word “consider”: A friend of mine tells a story about his dad and his appreciation for the practicality of a brick house. Someone once asked him “Would you ever consider putting any other siding on your house besides brick?” His answer: “I’d consider it. And then I’d brick it.”
- robocat 4y ago
  Bricks have bad failure modes in earthquake prone areas. Worst case: falling over and killing people in an earthquake (happened especially with many commercial properties in my hometown, Christchurch, in 2011 earthquake). Even with very minor damage you end up with fine mortar cracks so sealing fails, and wind blows water through cracks. Nobody fixes cracks properly so the problem is hidden by the repointing and painting over, and also cracks reopen on minor aftershocks years later. I like bricks, but I would avoid them in say California.
  - IIsi50MHz 4y ago
    Tangent: Some historic brick-built structurer in Cali are reinforced by apply fiberglass resin (just the resin, no fibers) to the surface of the bricks. This usually manifests as a glossy clear layer completely covering brickwork of the ground floor, followed by narrower and narrower strips of resin for the next floors. It can be applied to interior, exterior, or both surfaces, depending on assessment of the structure.
gpcz 4y ago
Instead, the companies want people willing to lie on forms.
- myself248 4y ago
  5+ years experience in a language/technology that only appeared 2 years ago! Congratulations, you will only hire liars. Which I think describes 90% of hiring these days.
  - anticensor 4y ago
    No, that actually means they want a specific person, indeed not mentioned in the listing. When the right person applies, all those unsatisfiable requirements are suddenly ignored.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  Indeed. If you insist on only hiring people who answer the question a certain way, don't be surprised when you hire a bunch of liars.
the_af 4y ago
> My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" One piece of advice my mom gave me which I always follow is: don't tell them (a company/job/boss) anything that could be used against you. There's no need to be truthful here, this isn't a consultation with your doctor. So lie, tell them you're healthy, you never had any problems with anyone ever, never admit to anything. Truth is for your doctor or your therapist (and your mom!). (There's also a fun related video that sometimes makes the rounds, "never talk to cops" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE). I suppose it's specific to US law, but I find it interesting nonetheless).
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I've watched that video several times; as somebody "largely" honest, I need it to pragmatically re-adjust my perspective every few years - because I TOTALLY am the person who would inherently monologue for 3 hours when asked a simple question by a cop :) The other piece of advice is trickier, and I personally do not follow it too closely (everything in life is circumstantial:). Two aspects to mention: 1. Often, a lie is more harmful than a slightly harmful truth. And opportunities to get caught in a lie start with the application process - some applications have multiple seemingly unrelated or different questions that aim to reinforce the validity of your claims; this will also sometimes be reinforced with interviews, reference checks, etc. And then if you get the job or grant or whatever, there's still the risk of getting caught at virtually any point in the future. My wife and a few of her friends have been HR managers at quite varied corporations, and universally they lament that people get fired over an insignificant lie. What they lied about might've been a verbal "Hey don't do that" or a formal reprimand, but lie got them immediately fired. 2. Variation of that but, perfection and/or fakeness can stand out. Not to say there aren't people who can lie/fake perfectly, and sometimes many of us think that we can pull it off better than we can. But while I cannot claim that I have never fibbed or concealed in my life, last few decades I've been lucky enough that I didn't need to. And luck is an important word; I've been lucky professionally since I came to Canada, which enabled me to have good success going counter to that advice: e.g. to every new manager, I proactively indicate explicitly that I "Attended university but have not graduated", I came extremely upfront when I started photography business even though it had nothing to do with my IT dayjob, etc. I find one's experience at large companies is partially shaped by formal policies written by people far away from you, but also hugely by the actual people surrounding you, and I've been lucky / chosen well over the years. Milleage most definitely WILL vary, and I've been in sufficiently different / more precarious or dangerous situations to be fairly aware of my current privilege.
harpiaharpyja 4y ago
> What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). Honestly I think it may just be semantics. When I think about the usage of the word "to consider," there does seem to be two different and distinct meanings. When people use it in the sense of "to consider a course of action" it actually has a different meaning than when the same word is used in other contexts.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
FireBeyond 4y ago
I had to write a letter in support of my immigration application, explaining my situation and circumstances. I gave it to my attorney and she read over it and handed it back to me. "You already have an attorney. My letter will read like an attorney wrote it. Yours should instead look like a human wrote it."
duped 4y ago
I think you're misunderstanding the difference between answering questions truthfully and how your answers are received.
CapmCrackaWaka 4y ago
I can't pretend to know what the original test writers had in mind. However, I actually think this question serves a different purpose than to determine if you had actually considered stealing from an employer. These types of questions are better suited to determine if someone can walk the corporate walk and talk the corporate talk. They don't want a low level employee to go off on a customer, or make rude remarks, or otherwise say "between you and me, fuck this company lmaoooo", because that opens them up to litigation. On that front, I would say they achieved their goal. The _obvious_ answer to this question, if you want a job, is "no". Anyone that answers "yes" is a liability, regardless of their actual intention to steal.
- idopmstuff 4y ago
  Yeah, seems like if you're hiring for a low-level retail employee, it's not necessarily a plus if they're the kind of person who deeply analyzes this sort of question instead of giving the superficially correct response. Particularly if this was in an employer-friendly time from a hiring perspective, and they had an endless supply of candidates.
  - applejacks 4y ago
    > they're the kind of person who deeply analyzes this sort of question Clearly they didn't deeply analyze the question in the relevant context. Answering "yes" to this is high school level "edginess". One needn't condescend, as there are equivalent questions at all levels of hiring, all with equally obvious (in)correct answers. No, you shouldn't answer "what is your biggest challenge" with "not showing up to work drunk", even if it is indeed your biggest challenge, and one that you work hard to successfully overcome every day. Another commenter refers to this as "walking the corporate walk" but I think it's more "having an understanding of context and appropriate levels of sharing" and it applies at all times in life.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      Some cultures, and strongly correlated thus nationalities, are more brutally honest than others. So it may just be a test to see if you're an apple pie white American, which could be unlawful discrimination.
nlnn 4y ago
Many people use "considered" to actually mean "seriously considered acting upon", rather than "idly considered hypothetically" in this context. Plus when screening many applicants with few differentiators, this might be an easy question to reject on.
giaour 4y ago
Did you methodically weigh the pros and cons of stealing from your employer? Was there a real possibility that you would have emerged from the consideration having decided to go ahead with the theft? If not, what you're describing sounds like "theft ideation," which I'm sure employers wouldn't be thrilled about but wouldn't warrant a question on the application.
m3047 4y ago
I mean, there's a whole book that's popular dedicated to saying "yes" to every opportunity you're offered to improve your "luck"...
gr4yb34rd 4y ago
that's how i knew 'voice stress analysis' tests were trash. when i was a teenager, it was all the rage for companies to put candidates through these and i'd sit there lying all the way through it and still get the job every time. now, any of my ex's can agree, i'm the worst liar in the world and if that test thought i was being honest, there's definitely something busted with it.
Tangurena2 4y ago
One book that describes these tests, and how they've come to dominate low-level jobs is titled Punching In [0]. The philosophy is that what sort of personality that would be successful at, say, Home Depot, would be completely different from American Eagle. At many retail companies, you cannot get into the payroll system unless the personality test system approves your application. My experience with the same sort of personality tests that you've described is somewhat similar. When trying to get hired (I was desperate for anything at that time) at WalMart, the personality tests seemed to ask 3 basic questions - but about 20 different ways to approach each question - (a) do you get into fights at work? (b) do you steal? and (c) do you care if your boss steals? 0: - https://www.amazon.com/Punching-Frontlines-New-Brand-Cultu-ebook/dp/B000W939RK/ https://www.amazon.com/Punching-Frontlines-New-Brand-Cultu-e...
nkrisc 4y ago
This gave me a good chuckle, and definitely speaks to the imprecision of language and how shared cultural context and understanding does a lot of heavy lifting. Context and understanding that everyone takes for granted but may not be apparent to some, even those in the culture. Almost certainly HR and your therapist were not interested in every infinite possible though you may have ever had, but whether it was something you seriously considered or planned and may have even made intent towards actually completing. > but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). Having an intrusive though pop into my head ("You could totally just jump in front of the train!") is not the same as actually considering the steps towards actually planning suicide. I have had intrusive thoughts, but I would say I've never "considered" suicide.
ALittleLight 4y ago
Personality tests aren't about a test of your personality, but your ability to project the ideal personality for an employee. That has some value because it shows you'll know how you're supposed to act on the job.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
peeters 4y ago
When I was in the security clearance process, the first step in the process was a 500 question multiple choice psychological exam (randomized order). The test is designed to have some level of error checking to make sure participants are taking it seriously (e.g. questions that would be expected to correlate). Near the start of the exam was a question "do you have back pain", I answered "no". Near the end was the same question phrased slightly differently, I answered "yes". When in my subsequent interview to discuss the results, the interviewer questioned why I didn't answer consistently. She seemed to accept my answer of "I had been sitting in an uncomfortable chair for 2.5 hours by the time I got to the second question".
Natsu 4y ago
People are using a different version of 'considered' where it's not just a passing fancy, but something you would be likely to do.
shagie 4y ago
A retail company that I worked for (I worked in the general office and we got a bit of a chuckle talking about the test) had a test that was very much in the same vein - though it wasn't a "have you ever considered" but rather put on a "agree to disagree" spectrum. It is ok to get into fights during your break as long as you aren't at the store It is ok to take office supplies home if they aren't valued more than $10 It is ok to not clock out for a smoke break if it is less than five minutes long There were other questions that were ones you were supposed to agree with too - just those weren't as memorable. Apparently, there were people who failed the test. The other part of the test is that it is on record. So when someone does get into a fight during their break the GM can pull the test out and say "see, you knew this."
kadoban 4y ago
> how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). I don't think people block their minds. I think they just lie on forms more. I also sometimes struggle with which lies are expected.
sleton38234234 4y ago
just be very careful with how you respond to questions from a therapist. they're "legally" required to report certain things. You have to know, what you're allowed to say and what you're not, if you don't want govt institutions getting involved.
jemmyw 4y ago
There's a difference between thinking about something and seriously entertaining it. Like you, I think about a lot of things, but I'd take "considering" to mean more than that. I've thought about all kinds of ways to commit fraud, but I'd never consider doing it. I think you've misunderstood the word in context.
moistly 4y ago
I think the question is used to weed out those people who do not want the job. It is a synonym for “so you want this job?” What mental fences do you have that prevented you from interpreting the question correctly, or that encourage you to self-sabotage (assuming you needed the job; if you knew you didn’t want the job, the question provides an easy out)? Or not, I dunno you nor what the test designer intended.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
> "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". I absolutely do not mean this as an insult and I a honestly curious, but could you be chance be on the autism spectrum? I know I am, but not so much that I don't know that you must lie to that question. Though I did have to learn the hard way that you should not tell romantic partners that you wish your loud neighbors would die, because it would objectively improve your life. Or like when we learned about illegal slash-and-burn agriculture destroying the rain forests and hurting the global climate and I asked my teacher why the government wouldn't just shoot the farmers, to his intense horror and revulsion. > but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? I fully agree and think the same way, but neurotypical people generally scare away from thought experiments that make them uncomfortable because of their, as you said, mental fences.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

Probably because you were overthinking it. You're thinking in terms of grey while they're testing to ensure that you have at least a basic understanding of black and white.

voisin 4y ago

Mindfulness meditation may help calm the racing mind.

geomark 4y ago
I did that while taking a polygraph administered by a representative of a three letter agency. He said I was being deceptive.
- brookst 4y ago
  Did you explain that you were just pretending to be deceptive, b it were in fact fully cooperating?
  - geomark 4y ago
    It was clear the examiner had no sense of humor. So no. But when he said I was being deceptive I asked "In what way?" And he said "You tell me." And so we ended in a standoff.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Thanks, I've heard that over time; I've tried a bit of mindfulness over the years and I see the value in it, I just haven't been able to harness it yet. I've tried some guided audio body focus mindfulness/meditation and 1. Most of it tries too hard and loses me with "Third Eye" and "Spirit world" "and chakra energy frequency balance" 2. Most of it starts from toes and turns out I need to start from center (ridiculous preference but apparently true for me:) and 3. Most importantly, unsurprisingly, I suck at it. I keep trying every now and then; maybe I'll give it another go :)
- hackingthelema 4y ago
  Abandon guided meditations and audio-based meditations, and focus to a simple programme of breath-focus. You just: 1. sit quietly and comfortably 2. breathe through your nose 3. find the feeling of air moving in and out of your nose 4. observe that feeling of air 5. if your mind starts observing other thoughts instead of the breath feeling -- 'I have an itch', 'this sitting position is uncomfortable', 'what about my meeting tomorrow' -- you notice your observation has left the air-in-your-nose feeling, and you gently redirect it back to focusing on that instead of the thoughts. 6. Repeat. You'll slowly increase from 2-3 seconds of focus to minutes at a time. > 3. Most importantly, unsurprisingly, I suck at it. I keep trying every now and then; maybe I'll give it another go :) You're better off with 3-5 minutes daily, regularly, than with longer sessions sporadically. It's a matter of practice and getting the knack of concentration down. Slowly increase to 10-15 minutes a day over a month or two, and really focus on getting the technique mastered more than anything. The book Mindfulness in Plain English is both available freely online, and my favourite guide to getting it right.
  - ufmace 4y ago
    This is basically the idea. Exact techniques vary, but the point is to keep gently re-focusing on something minor and physical. It doesn't really matter what it is, scan direction vs breath flow vs something else, none of it matters, just pick one and work on focusing.
    - 4y ago

screamingninja 4y ago

I would think that you have been using the word "considered" rather lightly. To me, it means careful thought and deliberation, not just "the thought crossed my mind at some point".

threatofrain 4y ago
And there are many who do use “considered” to mean that a thought crossed their mind. Surely this does not shock you. The problem is not the interpretation of a word. The problem is how the ocean of other people answered this question. There comes a point when being honest is completely stupid, and when most people use the word honesty they don’t mean to cross into the completely stupid territory. That being said I’d consider such a person to be a fine candidate for friendship.
- cm2187 4y ago
  Perhaps filtering out stupid people is the goal of the question. No one is completely honest. Courtesy is the art of lying.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rcfox 4y ago
I'm not so sure about that. If you spend a lot of time mentally disengaged, (walking, exercising, commuting, etc.) you have lots of opportunities to deeply consider many things that you have no intention of doing.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Yes and No. I have "Considered" stealing from my employer several times. When I was 15 I was a refugee and worked in a Radio-Shack-like store in Croatia. We built PCs in back and sold them in the front. The front and back were separated by a curtain, and highest value items (ram sticks) happened to be stashed on the shelf on the side of the entrance. I realized it would take literally 5 seconds for a customer to reach through the curtain and grab them. That got me thinking on whether as an insider I would have higher or lower risk than a random customer. How could I reduce the risk? What's a simple, non-overly-elaborate method that would let me accomplish this? So I did spend some time considering this problem space (and then next day suggested to my boss to move the RAM further inside:) Similarly with suicide. Everybody's life is hard and has ups and downs. I've "considered" suicide in several different ways many times in my life, sometimes at "obvious" times of hardship, otherwise at simply slow, boring times. I'm largely a cheerful optimistic person FWIW, but I find everything interesting even fascinating, including that particular life (ending) choice. Talking to couple of my closest oldest friends, who are most similar to me, they have few mental taboos. But talking to most other people, at least as far as they're willing to be honest with me and/or themselves, they have never considered SO MANY topics, virtually regardless of how light or heavy we define the word.

werdnapk 4y ago

In a similar vein... while driving down the road, have you ever "considered" just pulling into the opposing lane? I'd never ever do that, but I've considered others driving into my lane, which leads me to consider myself doing that to their lane. Lots of other similar "I'd never do that" situations I've definitely considered. I admire your honesty though. 99% of people would lie.

jat850 4y ago
L'appel du vide in one of its more commonly manifested forms.
Jerrrry 4y ago
The call of the void is a natural instinct evolved to help judge possibly (dis)advantageous choices. As long as you label it as an "intrusive thought," and it isn't incredibly (daily) common, that is perfectly normal.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  I always figured that the "call of the void" was to illustrate to us what a careless movement could lead to. So that we will shy away from the edge or constantly second guess our movements for danger while we remain.
ShroudedNight 4y ago
"Uh-uh-uh - Turning the car into oncoming traffic ... is counter productive!" has been a Jim Carrey tag-line for decades: https://youtu.be/4YnslaUd4VY https://youtu.be/4YnslaUd4VY
devin 4y ago
At a family gathering we were all sharing we've considered this while driving. Not specifically veering into oncoming traffic but "what if" things like letting go of the wheel, intentionally driving into a ditch at high speed, etc. One person in my family claims they've never had this thought ever, and it truly baffles me.

foobarbecue 4y ago

I'm like you. An ex of mine claimed that most people never even think about committing suicide. It's hard for me to understand how anyone could avoid such an obvious thought, but I have since seen a lot of evidence that some people's minds really don't explore the possibility space, and when they do it's only along prescribed paths... So I guess it's possible?

SpaceL10n 4y ago
I find this concept fascinating, where can I read more?
- foobarbecue 4y ago
  [Fox News joke removed since upon further reflection it wasn't funny] Seriously though, I suppose I was misusing the word "evidence" here... I haven't actually studied this beyond observing and talking to people I know. I would also be interested in reading on the topic if anyone can suggest something!
  - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
    Ah yes, Fox News. The source of all bad thought is not the global liberal hegemony, but rather its kayfabe opposition.
    - foobarbecue 4y ago
      Vouching for this. It's off-topic and a little inflammatory but I started that, and it taught me the word kayfabe. Thanks to dang for introducing me to the vouch feature.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    I'm sad that Slava_Propanei's comment below is dead. I'm stoked to learned the word "keyfabe."
    - 4y ago

frogpelt 4y ago

On the word “consider”: A friend of mine tells a story about his dad and his appreciation for the practicality of a brick house. Someone once asked him “Would you ever consider putting any other siding on your house besides brick?” His answer: “I’d consider it. And then I’d brick it.”

robocat 4y ago
Bricks have bad failure modes in earthquake prone areas. Worst case: falling over and killing people in an earthquake (happened especially with many commercial properties in my hometown, Christchurch, in 2011 earthquake). Even with very minor damage you end up with fine mortar cracks so sealing fails, and wind blows water through cracks. Nobody fixes cracks properly so the problem is hidden by the repointing and painting over, and also cracks reopen on minor aftershocks years later. I like bricks, but I would avoid them in say California.
- IIsi50MHz 4y ago
  Tangent: Some historic brick-built structurer in Cali are reinforced by apply fiberglass resin (just the resin, no fibers) to the surface of the bricks. This usually manifests as a glossy clear layer completely covering brickwork of the ground floor, followed by narrower and narrower strips of resin for the next floors. It can be applied to interior, exterior, or both surfaces, depending on assessment of the structure.

gpcz 4y ago

Instead, the companies want people willing to lie on forms.

myself248 4y ago
5+ years experience in a language/technology that only appeared 2 years ago! Congratulations, you will only hire liars. Which I think describes 90% of hiring these days.
- anticensor 4y ago
  No, that actually means they want a specific person, indeed not mentioned in the listing. When the right person applies, all those unsatisfiable requirements are suddenly ignored.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Indeed. If you insist on only hiring people who answer the question a certain way, don't be surprised when you hire a bunch of liars.

the_af 4y ago

> My mind never stops and there's virtually nothing in the world I have not "considered" One piece of advice my mom gave me which I always follow is: don't tell them (a company/job/boss) anything that could be used against you. There's no need to be truthful here, this isn't a consultation with your doctor. So lie, tell them you're healthy, you never had any problems with anyone ever, never admit to anything. Truth is for your doctor or your therapist (and your mom!). (There's also a fun related video that sometimes makes the rounds, "never talk to cops" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE). I suppose it's specific to US law, but I find it interesting nonetheless).

NikolaNovak 4y ago
I've watched that video several times; as somebody "largely" honest, I need it to pragmatically re-adjust my perspective every few years - because I TOTALLY am the person who would inherently monologue for 3 hours when asked a simple question by a cop :) The other piece of advice is trickier, and I personally do not follow it too closely (everything in life is circumstantial:). Two aspects to mention: 1. Often, a lie is more harmful than a slightly harmful truth. And opportunities to get caught in a lie start with the application process - some applications have multiple seemingly unrelated or different questions that aim to reinforce the validity of your claims; this will also sometimes be reinforced with interviews, reference checks, etc. And then if you get the job or grant or whatever, there's still the risk of getting caught at virtually any point in the future. My wife and a few of her friends have been HR managers at quite varied corporations, and universally they lament that people get fired over an insignificant lie. What they lied about might've been a verbal "Hey don't do that" or a formal reprimand, but lie got them immediately fired. 2. Variation of that but, perfection and/or fakeness can stand out. Not to say there aren't people who can lie/fake perfectly, and sometimes many of us think that we can pull it off better than we can. But while I cannot claim that I have never fibbed or concealed in my life, last few decades I've been lucky enough that I didn't need to. And luck is an important word; I've been lucky professionally since I came to Canada, which enabled me to have good success going counter to that advice: e.g. to every new manager, I proactively indicate explicitly that I "Attended university but have not graduated", I came extremely upfront when I started photography business even though it had nothing to do with my IT dayjob, etc. I find one's experience at large companies is partially shaped by formal policies written by people far away from you, but also hugely by the actual people surrounding you, and I've been lucky / chosen well over the years. Milleage most definitely WILL vary, and I've been in sufficiently different / more precarious or dangerous situations to be fairly aware of my current privilege.

harpiaharpyja 4y ago

> What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). Honestly I think it may just be semantics. When I think about the usage of the word "to consider," there does seem to be two different and distinct meanings. When people use it in the sense of "to consider a course of action" it actually has a different meaning than when the same word is used in other contexts.

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FireBeyond 4y ago

I had to write a letter in support of my immigration application, explaining my situation and circumstances. I gave it to my attorney and she read over it and handed it back to me. "You already have an attorney. My letter will read like an attorney wrote it. Yours should instead look like a human wrote it."

duped 4y ago

I think you're misunderstanding the difference between answering questions truthfully and how your answers are received.

CapmCrackaWaka 4y ago

I can't pretend to know what the original test writers had in mind. However, I actually think this question serves a different purpose than to determine if you had actually considered stealing from an employer. These types of questions are better suited to determine if someone can walk the corporate walk and talk the corporate talk. They don't want a low level employee to go off on a customer, or make rude remarks, or otherwise say "between you and me, fuck this company lmaoooo", because that opens them up to litigation. On that front, I would say they achieved their goal. The _obvious_ answer to this question, if you want a job, is "no". Anyone that answers "yes" is a liability, regardless of their actual intention to steal.

idopmstuff 4y ago
Yeah, seems like if you're hiring for a low-level retail employee, it's not necessarily a plus if they're the kind of person who deeply analyzes this sort of question instead of giving the superficially correct response. Particularly if this was in an employer-friendly time from a hiring perspective, and they had an endless supply of candidates.
- applejacks 4y ago
  > they're the kind of person who deeply analyzes this sort of question Clearly they didn't deeply analyze the question in the relevant context. Answering "yes" to this is high school level "edginess". One needn't condescend, as there are equivalent questions at all levels of hiring, all with equally obvious (in)correct answers. No, you shouldn't answer "what is your biggest challenge" with "not showing up to work drunk", even if it is indeed your biggest challenge, and one that you work hard to successfully overcome every day. Another commenter refers to this as "walking the corporate walk" but I think it's more "having an understanding of context and appropriate levels of sharing" and it applies at all times in life.
  - notch656c 4y ago
    Some cultures, and strongly correlated thus nationalities, are more brutally honest than others. So it may just be a test to see if you're an apple pie white American, which could be unlawful discrimination.

nlnn 4y ago

Many people use "considered" to actually mean "seriously considered acting upon", rather than "idly considered hypothetically" in this context. Plus when screening many applicants with few differentiators, this might be an easy question to reject on.

giaour 4y ago

Did you methodically weigh the pros and cons of stealing from your employer? Was there a real possibility that you would have emerged from the consideration having decided to go ahead with the theft? If not, what you're describing sounds like "theft ideation," which I'm sure employers wouldn't be thrilled about but wouldn't warrant a question on the application.

m3047 4y ago

I mean, there's a whole book that's popular dedicated to saying "yes" to every opportunity you're offered to improve your "luck"...

gr4yb34rd 4y ago

that's how i knew 'voice stress analysis' tests were trash. when i was a teenager, it was all the rage for companies to put candidates through these and i'd sit there lying all the way through it and still get the job every time. now, any of my ex's can agree, i'm the worst liar in the world and if that test thought i was being honest, there's definitely something busted with it.

Tangurena2 4y ago

One book that describes these tests, and how they've come to dominate low-level jobs is titled Punching In [0]. The philosophy is that what sort of personality that would be successful at, say, Home Depot, would be completely different from American Eagle. At many retail companies, you cannot get into the payroll system unless the personality test system approves your application. My experience with the same sort of personality tests that you've described is somewhat similar. When trying to get hired (I was desperate for anything at that time) at WalMart, the personality tests seemed to ask 3 basic questions - but about 20 different ways to approach each question - (a) do you get into fights at work? (b) do you steal? and (c) do you care if your boss steals? 0: - https://www.amazon.com/Punching-Frontlines-New-Brand-Cultu-ebook/dp/B000W939RK/ https://www.amazon.com/Punching-Frontlines-New-Brand-Cultu-e...

nkrisc 4y ago

This gave me a good chuckle, and definitely speaks to the imprecision of language and how shared cultural context and understanding does a lot of heavy lifting. Context and understanding that everyone takes for granted but may not be apparent to some, even those in the culture. Almost certainly HR and your therapist were not interested in every infinite possible though you may have ever had, but whether it was something you seriously considered or planned and may have even made intent towards actually completing. > but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). Having an intrusive though pop into my head ("You could totally just jump in front of the train!") is not the same as actually considering the steps towards actually planning suicide. I have had intrusive thoughts, but I would say I've never "considered" suicide.

ALittleLight 4y ago

Personality tests aren't about a test of your personality, but your ability to project the ideal personality for an employee. That has some value because it shows you'll know how you're supposed to act on the job.

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peeters 4y ago

When I was in the security clearance process, the first step in the process was a 500 question multiple choice psychological exam (randomized order). The test is designed to have some level of error checking to make sure participants are taking it seriously (e.g. questions that would be expected to correlate). Near the start of the exam was a question "do you have back pain", I answered "no". Near the end was the same question phrased slightly differently, I answered "yes". When in my subsequent interview to discuss the results, the interviewer questioned why I didn't answer consistently. She seemed to accept my answer of "I had been sitting in an uncomfortable chair for 2.5 hours by the time I got to the second question".

Natsu 4y ago

People are using a different version of 'considered' where it's not just a passing fancy, but something you would be likely to do.

shagie 4y ago

A retail company that I worked for (I worked in the general office and we got a bit of a chuckle talking about the test) had a test that was very much in the same vein - though it wasn't a "have you ever considered" but rather put on a "agree to disagree" spectrum. It is ok to get into fights during your break as long as you aren't at the store It is ok to take office supplies home if they aren't valued more than $10 It is ok to not clock out for a smoke break if it is less than five minutes long There were other questions that were ones you were supposed to agree with too - just those weren't as memorable. Apparently, there were people who failed the test. The other part of the test is that it is on record. So when someone does get into a fight during their break the GM can pull the test out and say "see, you knew this."

kadoban 4y ago

> how do you block & limit your mind? What mental fences do you have that you have never "considered" such an obvious course of action in the likely billion of seconds of thinking?). I don't think people block their minds. I think they just lie on forms more. I also sometimes struggle with which lies are expected.

sleton38234234 4y ago

just be very careful with how you respond to questions from a therapist. they're "legally" required to report certain things. You have to know, what you're allowed to say and what you're not, if you don't want govt institutions getting involved.

jemmyw 4y ago

There's a difference between thinking about something and seriously entertaining it. Like you, I think about a lot of things, but I'd take "considering" to mean more than that. I've thought about all kinds of ways to commit fraud, but I'd never consider doing it. I think you've misunderstood the word in context.

moistly 4y ago

I think the question is used to weed out those people who do not want the job. It is a synonym for “so you want this job?” What mental fences do you have that prevented you from interpreting the question correctly, or that encourage you to self-sabotage (assuming you needed the job; if you knew you didn’t want the job, the question provides an easy out)? Or not, I dunno you nor what the test designer intended.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

> "Have you ever considered stealing from your employer?" to which I would cheerfully answer "Yes". I absolutely do not mean this as an insult and I a honestly curious, but could you be chance be on the autism spectrum? I know I am, but not so much that I don't know that you must lie to that question. Though I did have to learn the hard way that you should not tell romantic partners that you wish your loud neighbors would die, because it would objectively improve your life. Or like when we learned about illegal slash-and-burn agriculture destroying the rain forests and hurting the global climate and I asked my teacher why the government wouldn't just shoot the farmers, to his intense horror and revulsion. > but I genuinely don't understand people who have "never considered" it - how do you block & limit your mind? I fully agree and think the same way, but neurotypical people generally scare away from thought experiments that make them uncomfortable because of their, as you said, mental fences.