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China's made an entire business of expanding their territory by putting airfields on top of half-underwater islands. The Spratlys are horseshoe shaped atolls bu

China's made an entire business of expanding their territory by putting airfields on top of half-underwater islands. The Spratlys are horseshoe shaped atolls but have proven it can be done effectively and defensibly. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-fully-militarized-three-islands-in-south-china-sea-us-admiral-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-full...) You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as well. Portugal has been working on staking out an enormous chunk of the north atlantic for the last decade or so using similar strategy.

bell-cot 4y ago
What China - a superpower with a very confrontational and combative attitude - can get away with in its own back yard might be quite different from what modest little Norway can or would try to do in the Greenland Sea. Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water active volcanoes. (Vs. China is building on shallow, solid, inactive atolls.)
- klyrs 4y ago
  > Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water active volcanoes. Discount plane parking/moorage/incineration?
  - toast0 4y ago
    Moorage with built-in incineration solves the problem of what to do with the boats when the owners disappear.
- zardo 4y ago
  And Norway has plenty of EEZ, China is short on it.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  I think we need to understand that China is not "confrontational and combative" in a negative way. Think of it more like the kid who's been bullied for years and years and when puberty hits is finally able to stand his ground. That's China, and they're not the only ones who have been bullied over the last centuries and who may be able to stand their ground soon.
  - karatinversion 4y ago
    Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller, younger victims of the bullies.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the US control and ask why that is. The difference is that China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong.
      - rnk 4y ago
        Trying to excuse your bullying behavior by pointing at someone else's behavior isn't actually justifying your own.
      - sklargh 4y ago
        "Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html
        4y ago
spookie 4y ago
Portugal has a ton of actual islands though
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jcranmer 4y ago
> You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as well. You don't get those for artificial lands or for insufficiently substantial islands. And an international arbitration under UNCLOS already ruled against Chinese claims in this regard.
- Stevvo 4y ago
  You're correct, but it's a bit of a moot point because nobody can fish in these areas without being harassed by Chinese military.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    They dont need islands to do that.
    - Georgelemental 4y ago
      Conveniently placed supply bases sure help
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    It's a twisted sense of appreciation, but I appreciate the likes of China and Russia for calling the west's bluffs and proving time and time again that all those nice words written on stacks of paper are just stacks of paper.
    - tim333 4y ago
      Sometimes the words get backed up. Russia is finding ignoring the bits of paper agreeing Ukraines borders is not quite as easy as they thought.
    - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
      Did Russia call the West’s bluff? Because it seems like they’ve found themselves in a war far worse than Vietnam with far worse prospects. If anything I would think that Russia did not expect the degree of support and coordination the US would be willing to provide. Similarly Biden has said that US troops would defend Taiwan in the event of an invasion. I don’t think that’s a bluff. Do you?
mlindner 4y ago
Well the territory hasn't really expanded as no one recognizes them.

bell-cot 4y ago

What China - a superpower with a very confrontational and combative attitude - can get away with in its own back yard might be quite different from what modest little Norway can or would try to do in the Greenland Sea. Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water active volcanoes. (Vs. China is building on shallow, solid, inactive atolls.)

klyrs 4y ago
> Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water active volcanoes. Discount plane parking/moorage/incineration?
- toast0 4y ago
  Moorage with built-in incineration solves the problem of what to do with the boats when the owners disappear.
zardo 4y ago
And Norway has plenty of EEZ, China is short on it.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
I think we need to understand that China is not "confrontational and combative" in a negative way. Think of it more like the kid who's been bullied for years and years and when puberty hits is finally able to stand his ground. That's China, and they're not the only ones who have been bullied over the last centuries and who may be able to stand their ground soon.
- karatinversion 4y ago
  Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular, are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller, younger victims of the bullies.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    China has been claiming the South China Sea since before the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same: the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not the 'correct' narrative to say that... Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the US control and ask why that is. The difference is that China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being strong.
    - rnk 4y ago
      Trying to excuse your bullying behavior by pointing at someone else's behavior isn't actually justifying your own.
    - sklargh 4y ago
      "Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world goes, is only in question between equal power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html
      - 4y ago

spookie 4y ago

Portugal has a ton of actual islands though

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jcranmer 4y ago

> You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as well. You don't get those for artificial lands or for insufficiently substantial islands. And an international arbitration under UNCLOS already ruled against Chinese claims in this regard.

Stevvo 4y ago
You're correct, but it's a bit of a moot point because nobody can fish in these areas without being harassed by Chinese military.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  They dont need islands to do that.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    Conveniently placed supply bases sure help
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  It's a twisted sense of appreciation, but I appreciate the likes of China and Russia for calling the west's bluffs and proving time and time again that all those nice words written on stacks of paper are just stacks of paper.
  - tim333 4y ago
    Sometimes the words get backed up. Russia is finding ignoring the bits of paper agreeing Ukraines borders is not quite as easy as they thought.
  - AbrahamParangi 4y ago
    Did Russia call the West’s bluff? Because it seems like they’ve found themselves in a war far worse than Vietnam with far worse prospects. If anything I would think that Russia did not expect the degree of support and coordination the US would be willing to provide. Similarly Biden has said that US troops would defend Taiwan in the event of an invasion. I don’t think that’s a bluff. Do you?

mlindner 4y ago

Well the territory hasn't really expanded as no one recognizes them.