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Apple deserve more market share. "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfTXYa36f4 http

Apple deserve more market share. "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfTXYa36f4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfTXYa36f4

mikedelago 4y ago
I would prefer a Linux machine with similar hardware features over a Mac. Honestly, if they just said "alright, we'll let you install linux and make it easy and the hardware should work fine", I'd probably buy one right now.
- iillexial 4y ago
  Mac with Linux support would be the best tech product ever.
  - JoshTko 4y ago
    Anyone know the market size of folks who want linux support on Mac hardware?
    - mikedelago 4y ago
      I think it's less of Mac hardware specifically, and more of the quality of their hardware. The best Linux users can do (for a laptop) is a Thinkpad (as they officially have support from Lenovo) or one of the more boutique brands (system76, starlabs, purism) and at best (my opinion, Thinkpads) they trade blows with Apple hardware. As far as desktops go, building a computer for Linux is simple and easy and doesn't really have that many problems in my experience.
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    What is the advantage of Apple supported Linux over XNU?
- gtirloni 4y ago
  Don't they already? Asahi Linux, etc. It just doesn't have the greatest support (drivers). I think you'd like Apple to provider proper documentation or even their own Linux drivers. That'd cannibalize macOS so I don't see that happening.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    You answered your own question. And GPU is still not fully working iirc.
  - johngalt_ 4y ago
    That would probably have either a negligible effect on sales or have a small upside overall. People who would buy a Mac to use with Linux are people who are not using macOS already. I would love to use the Mac hardware but I ain't giving up on Linux. The question is whether there are enough of us for them to make it worth providing support to Linux. Unfortunately, probably not.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      I can do almost anything on a Mac terminal that I can do in a Linux terminal. So to _me_ there is nothing that a dedicated Linux environment can give me that OSX can't.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        How about a usable package manager, or a usable window manager? Brew is extremely slow and cannot do versioning (as in, installing a package will result in random other packages upgraded across major versions), and for window managers there are only two non-paid versions which are OK but still poorer than alternatives available on Linux.
        factsarelolz 4y ago
        Versioning is done through the package maintainers. If there is no versioning for the package it's not Apple's fault (you could argue it's brews fault for not requiring it). If you think Brew should require versioning then open a request. If you don't think there is enough free windows managers perhaps you should create one yourself or contribute to a non paid project to ensure your wants are addressed. It appears your problems are with 3rd parties and not Apple.
- msk-lywenn 4y ago
  Well, they kind of let you. They don't port linux, but the firmware is open to it. https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/109676836655086299 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/109676836655086299
- amelius 4y ago
  Yeah, it's basically the tethering by the vendor that's making me run away from them. If I could buy an Apple laptop and then immediately break all my ties with Apple, still being able to use the machine, then I would certainly buy one. Apple doesn't seem able to decide whether they are offering a service or a product.
  - D13Fd 4y ago
    It was this way for Windows for 1.5 decades with Boot Camp. On Intel chips they provided strong support for running Windows natively. In the end it seems like few people used it.
- ericlewis 4y ago
  You are in luck: https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/ And GPU drivers are getting pretty good. The builders of this are pretty amazing.
highwaylights 4y ago
Maybe when they stop crippling their already expensive hardware to gouge customers. Where's my multiple display outputs, Apple? I paid way more than any competing device, every one of which allowed for more than one extra display. I'm not a video editor, I don't want to buy an M1 Max just to get triple monitor support back.
- zwily 4y ago
  What machine are you referring to? I can hook 3 displays up to my MBP M1.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    The problem is that the normal M1 only allows one external DisplayLink screen on macOS (Linux can get more screens out of the same hardware, I believe, as long as the I/O bandwidth doesn't get exceeded). In the end, the problem is that the first M1 chips simply didn't have the I/O capacity to drive multiple screens normally like the Intel machines before them could. Higher end and more recent chips have added more I/O (two screens for M1 Pro, four to five for M1 Max, five on M1 Ultra) DisplayLink, a proprietary protocol that sends video over USB, was never a problem. The quality and performance of DisplayLink is far below DisplayPort, though, because the video needs to go through software and an additional layer of compression to fit within the USB data speeds. You can see the limitations per model on Apple's website: https://support.apple.com/en-asia/HT202351 https://support.apple.com/en-asia/HT202351
    - esskay 4y ago
      If you need more than 1 external display you go with an M1 Pro or M1 Max. They support 2 and 4 screens respectively. Buying an entry level model and expecting it to come with higher end features is a user issue, not a product issue.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        Higher end features that any other OS on the same hardware supports (this includes DP daisy chaining over non-Thundrbolt)?
nickpp 4y ago
They're also the only ones maintaining and improving a desktop OS with native apps in your language of choice. Microsoft’s focus is now Azure, with Windows 11 development only recommended in .NET
- newaccount2021 4y ago
  [dead]
kache_ 4y ago
maybe once they allow me to actually own my hardware (let me install whatever software I want (linux))
- prepend 4y ago
  Apple does allow this. It’s just the issue of finding software to install.
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  I'm sorry how is Apple not allowing you? You are free to run whatever YOU want on it. Just because something YOU want isn't created, well that isn't apple or anyone else's problem. You should build what you need instead of expecting someone else to do it for you just because you demand it.
- esskay 4y ago
  It's not really Apples job to build a copy of Linux for their hardware. You want it, you build it. There's nothing stopping it running.
- vehemenz 4y ago
  You're using the term "own" in a non-standard way to make your point. When you buy a Mac, part of the deal is that it runs macOS. However, you still own the Mac. You can loan it to others or sell it. You can sleep with it under your pillow. If you don't like the deal, then don't buy it.
sofixa 4y ago
> Apple deserve more market share. If their OS wasn't a dumpster fire of mindbogglingly poor UX hidden inbetween good and shiny UI/UX (if anyone wants examples, not having the option to have different scroll directions between mouse and trackpad even if the UX implies you do, and useless undebuggable error messages such as "A USB device is consuming too much power and has been shut down, reinsert it to use it again" without any indication which device it's talking about, with all of them still working), and if their hardware wasn't utterly unmaintainable I would have shared your opinion, but hélas that isn't the case.

Apple deserve more market share. "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfTXYa36f4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfTXYa36f4

mikedelago 4y ago

I would prefer a Linux machine with similar hardware features over a Mac. Honestly, if they just said "alright, we'll let you install linux and make it easy and the hardware should work fine", I'd probably buy one right now.

iillexial 4y ago
Mac with Linux support would be the best tech product ever.
- JoshTko 4y ago
  Anyone know the market size of folks who want linux support on Mac hardware?
  - mikedelago 4y ago
    I think it's less of Mac hardware specifically, and more of the quality of their hardware. The best Linux users can do (for a laptop) is a Thinkpad (as they officially have support from Lenovo) or one of the more boutique brands (system76, starlabs, purism) and at best (my opinion, Thinkpads) they trade blows with Apple hardware. As far as desktops go, building a computer for Linux is simple and easy and doesn't really have that many problems in my experience.
- jonhohle 4y ago
  What is the advantage of Apple supported Linux over XNU?
gtirloni 4y ago
Don't they already? Asahi Linux, etc. It just doesn't have the greatest support (drivers). I think you'd like Apple to provider proper documentation or even their own Linux drivers. That'd cannibalize macOS so I don't see that happening.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  You answered your own question. And GPU is still not fully working iirc.
- johngalt_ 4y ago
  That would probably have either a negligible effect on sales or have a small upside overall. People who would buy a Mac to use with Linux are people who are not using macOS already. I would love to use the Mac hardware but I ain't giving up on Linux. The question is whether there are enough of us for them to make it worth providing support to Linux. Unfortunately, probably not.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    I can do almost anything on a Mac terminal that I can do in a Linux terminal. So to _me_ there is nothing that a dedicated Linux environment can give me that OSX can't.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      How about a usable package manager, or a usable window manager? Brew is extremely slow and cannot do versioning (as in, installing a package will result in random other packages upgraded across major versions), and for window managers there are only two non-paid versions which are OK but still poorer than alternatives available on Linux.
      - factsarelolz 4y ago
        Versioning is done through the package maintainers. If there is no versioning for the package it's not Apple's fault (you could argue it's brews fault for not requiring it). If you think Brew should require versioning then open a request. If you don't think there is enough free windows managers perhaps you should create one yourself or contribute to a non paid project to ensure your wants are addressed. It appears your problems are with 3rd parties and not Apple.
msk-lywenn 4y ago
Well, they kind of let you. They don't port linux, but the firmware is open to it. https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/109676836655086299 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/109676836655086299
amelius 4y ago
Yeah, it's basically the tethering by the vendor that's making me run away from them. If I could buy an Apple laptop and then immediately break all my ties with Apple, still being able to use the machine, then I would certainly buy one. Apple doesn't seem able to decide whether they are offering a service or a product.
- D13Fd 4y ago
  It was this way for Windows for 1.5 decades with Boot Camp. On Intel chips they provided strong support for running Windows natively. In the end it seems like few people used it.
ericlewis 4y ago
You are in luck: https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/ And GPU drivers are getting pretty good. The builders of this are pretty amazing.

highwaylights 4y ago

Maybe when they stop crippling their already expensive hardware to gouge customers. Where's my multiple display outputs, Apple? I paid way more than any competing device, every one of which allowed for more than one extra display. I'm not a video editor, I don't want to buy an M1 Max just to get triple monitor support back.

zwily 4y ago
What machine are you referring to? I can hook 3 displays up to my MBP M1.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  The problem is that the normal M1 only allows one external DisplayLink screen on macOS (Linux can get more screens out of the same hardware, I believe, as long as the I/O bandwidth doesn't get exceeded). In the end, the problem is that the first M1 chips simply didn't have the I/O capacity to drive multiple screens normally like the Intel machines before them could. Higher end and more recent chips have added more I/O (two screens for M1 Pro, four to five for M1 Max, five on M1 Ultra) DisplayLink, a proprietary protocol that sends video over USB, was never a problem. The quality and performance of DisplayLink is far below DisplayPort, though, because the video needs to go through software and an additional layer of compression to fit within the USB data speeds. You can see the limitations per model on Apple's website: https://support.apple.com/en-asia/HT202351 https://support.apple.com/en-asia/HT202351
  - esskay 4y ago
    If you need more than 1 external display you go with an M1 Pro or M1 Max. They support 2 and 4 screens respectively. Buying an entry level model and expecting it to come with higher end features is a user issue, not a product issue.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      Higher end features that any other OS on the same hardware supports (this includes DP daisy chaining over non-Thundrbolt)?

nickpp 4y ago

They're also the only ones maintaining and improving a desktop OS with native apps in your language of choice. Microsoft’s focus is now Azure, with Windows 11 development only recommended in .NET

newaccount2021 4y ago
[dead]

kache_ 4y ago

maybe once they allow me to actually own my hardware (let me install whatever software I want (linux))

prepend 4y ago
Apple does allow this. It’s just the issue of finding software to install.
factsarelolz 4y ago
I'm sorry how is Apple not allowing you? You are free to run whatever YOU want on it. Just because something YOU want isn't created, well that isn't apple or anyone else's problem. You should build what you need instead of expecting someone else to do it for you just because you demand it.
esskay 4y ago
It's not really Apples job to build a copy of Linux for their hardware. You want it, you build it. There's nothing stopping it running.
vehemenz 4y ago
You're using the term "own" in a non-standard way to make your point. When you buy a Mac, part of the deal is that it runs macOS. However, you still own the Mac. You can loan it to others or sell it. You can sleep with it under your pillow. If you don't like the deal, then don't buy it.

sofixa 4y ago

> Apple deserve more market share. If their OS wasn't a dumpster fire of mindbogglingly poor UX hidden inbetween good and shiny UI/UX (if anyone wants examples, not having the option to have different scroll directions between mouse and trackpad even if the UX implies you do, and useless undebuggable error messages such as "A USB device is consuming too much power and has been shut down, reinsert it to use it again" without any indication which device it's talking about, with all of them still working), and if their hardware wasn't utterly unmaintainable I would have shared your opinion, but hélas that isn't the case.