10 ms·

For occasional commutes, 115km one way is ok (not for me, but it's not unthinkable). But 115km each way (230km round trip) 5 days per week is a problem. We sh

For occasional commutes, 115km one way is ok (not for me, but it's not unthinkable). But 115km each way (230km round trip) 5 days per week is a problem. We should not be doing this, at least not in individual cars. That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road, not to mention its contribution to general traffic. The focus should be on how to reduce the commute distance (or eliminate it as often as possible), and to build/use efficient mass transit systems. So much of our intellectual and financial energy seems to be directed toward overclocking the horse and buggy - with diminishing returns. At some point it's time to step back and rethink the greater system. (I believe that point was 20+ years ago, when it became clear that cities would continue to become the population growth centers.)

Tade0 4y ago
> That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road I hear this a lot, but how much pollution is it really? It surely doesn't register on any municipal particulate measurement station.
- replygirl 4y ago
  https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Interesting that driving style has such an outsized impact. Perhaps aggressive driving and tire composition should be regulated.
    - xnx 4y ago
      or tax tires
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        According to the linked article excluding some compounds would be lower hanging fruit. Though I agree tires could use a higher tax given how much of a problem they produce.
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        CA does have a tire tax of $1.75 per tire.
    - replygirl 4y ago
      probably more effective to regulate the weight of vehicles by use than to broaden the definition of reckless driving. for safety, too
    - dashundchen 4y ago
      I think auto infrastructure should be designed around lower steady speeds with roundabouts and stop signs and lights, at least in the US. Right now we have high speed limits, wide roads which encourage speeding, but a lot of stop signs, long stop lights and driveway filled stroads that are terrible for everyone. I'd like narrower lanes, bump outs raised intersections and crosswalks to slow traffic. Reduce curb cuts and driveways to cut down on conflicts - thinking Dutch style access streets and alleys that connect to the less interrupted travel lane. The added benefit of lower speeds would make it safer for bikes and pedestrians and reduce auto crash fatalities. Slower steady speeds would reduce stooa go, dropping noise and particulate emission from acceleration.
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Cars should be smart enough to automatically adapt the allowed driving style to their surroundings. There is no reason why cars should be able to accelerate at maximum torque on normal city roads. Or go their max speed.
    - xracy 4y ago
      There is no way to regulate aggressive driving other than to take people off of the roads.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Driving is a privilege. Acceleration could be recorded (in vehicle or from intersections) then tickets mailed to vehicle owners.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  I worked in a temporary office for a summer next to a large overpass. It had no AC so we had the windows open most afternoons. The amount of particulate that would coat everything in just a single afternoon shocked me.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  I had a link once to a government paid for study that claimed tire and brake dust were about 5-10% of the dust produced by light cars. The rest being tailpipe emissions. Of course brake dust, tire dust, and exhaust PM2.5 aren't the same types of dust. So feels to me like grasping for straws especially considering no one makes the same arguments against large SUV's and trucks.
ogzk 4y ago
[flagged]
- replygirl 4y ago
  proximity to public transportation is one of the strongest indicators of economic mobility
- hammock 4y ago
  > We’ll never have public transport because Wait, we…do…have public transport. Effective and useful public transport. In NYC 60% of people commute with it. Boston, DC, SF, Chicago, Philadelphia… You might have a specific gripe because it doesn’t take you exactly where you want to go with exactly the comfort you think you need, but these places have public transit that is good enough for hundreds of thousands or even millions to use every day
  - ericd 4y ago
    Having lived in a few of those cities, I’d say NYC is very much the exception. It’d be great if every major city’s public transit was as good, but it’s inadequate or barely adequate for a large percentage of the area of those other cities.
- r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
  If you look outside of the USA lots of cities have good public transport systems that aren't plagued by poverty, crime, homelessness and mental illness. Just because Americans have decided to optimize their society to maximize misery of a minority for the benefit of an even smaller minority doesn't make it necessary.
  - blfr 4y ago
    It's the other way round: cities that aren't plagued by homelessness, rampant drug use, and criminality can have good public transit. Middle class people simply won't pay (in taxes or directly) for public transit that acts as a homeless shelter and routinely features crimes against them.
hammock 4y ago
> That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road And brake dust, which includes a lot of metal
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  EVs make substantially less of that, due to regenerative braking.
  - hammock 4y ago
    What portion of drivers use one pedal?
    - gambiting 4y ago
      You don't need to have the one pedal driving enabled to reap the benefits. In all EVs and PHEVs you brake with the electric motors first even when using the actual pedal - normal brakes are engaged only past a certain threshold. Also to give a personal anecdote, in my Volvo XC60 PHEV, I've just had the inspection done and after 24k miles the brake pads are 5% worn. That's insane for a 2.2 tonne SUV with 400bhp. If it wasn't a PHEV I can guarantee that the pads would be nearly worn by now.
      - potatochup 4y ago
        > you brake with the electric motors first This is not true. At least for Teslas, the brake pedal only controls the friction brakes (they are hydraulically coupled). Same with a Chevy bolt. Unsure on other EVs
        josephcsible 4y ago
        In Teslas, any time your foot is completely off the accelerator, you're getting maximum regenerative braking. If you then press the brake pedal too, you're getting maximum regenerative braking plus friction braking.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> So much of our intellectual and financial energy seems to be directed toward overclocking the horse and buggy I don't personally think it's realistic to expect everybody/all people (who mainly work for a living/work hard) to ask them to give up the luxury of spending their hard earned money on being able to transport themselves (to and from their job) in something other than the comfort of their own car. I think you're suggesting "we should all be doing public transport, it's more efficient." You aren't wrong, but there's a human/emotional element/aspect here.
- JimtheCoder 4y ago
  Personally, my time in my car is some of the only pure "me" time I have, and I would hazard a guess that it is the same for many others. A car to me is a personal, climate controlled cocoon, where I can turn on whatever music I want, have a coffee or a snack, and escape for the 30 minutes or however long it takes to reach my destination...without the chance of being bothered by anyone else, much less any of the other belligerents that you are sure to find on public transit from time to time. I will continue to own and drive my own car for this simple fact...
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    I love driving as much as the next person but being on the roads at commuting time is hell on earth. Battling all of the other sleep deprived idiots to travel 3 miles in an hour. It's awful.
    - dzikimarian 4y ago
      For me it's 15 minutes in pretty relaxed traffic and music/audiobook. Garage to office door + easy detour to shop if necessary. In the summer bike is nice alternative, but during bad weather there's nothing comparable to the comfort of car. Please remember not everyone lives in bay area with long commute and mild weather all year long :-)
      - michaelteter 4y ago

Tade0 4y ago

> That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road I hear this a lot, but how much pollution is it really? It surely doesn't register on any municipal particulate measurement station.

replygirl 4y ago
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Interesting that driving style has such an outsized impact. Perhaps aggressive driving and tire composition should be regulated.
  - xnx 4y ago
    or tax tires
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      According to the linked article excluding some compounds would be lower hanging fruit. Though I agree tires could use a higher tax given how much of a problem they produce.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      CA does have a tire tax of $1.75 per tire.
  - replygirl 4y ago
    probably more effective to regulate the weight of vehicles by use than to broaden the definition of reckless driving. for safety, too
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    I think auto infrastructure should be designed around lower steady speeds with roundabouts and stop signs and lights, at least in the US. Right now we have high speed limits, wide roads which encourage speeding, but a lot of stop signs, long stop lights and driveway filled stroads that are terrible for everyone. I'd like narrower lanes, bump outs raised intersections and crosswalks to slow traffic. Reduce curb cuts and driveways to cut down on conflicts - thinking Dutch style access streets and alleys that connect to the less interrupted travel lane. The added benefit of lower speeds would make it safer for bikes and pedestrians and reduce auto crash fatalities. Slower steady speeds would reduce stooa go, dropping noise and particulate emission from acceleration.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Cars should be smart enough to automatically adapt the allowed driving style to their surroundings. There is no reason why cars should be able to accelerate at maximum torque on normal city roads. Or go their max speed.
  - xracy 4y ago
    There is no way to regulate aggressive driving other than to take people off of the roads.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      Driving is a privilege. Acceleration could be recorded (in vehicle or from intersections) then tickets mailed to vehicle owners.
jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
I worked in a temporary office for a summer next to a large overpass. It had no AC so we had the windows open most afternoons. The amount of particulate that would coat everything in just a single afternoon shocked me.
Gibbon1 4y ago
I had a link once to a government paid for study that claimed tire and brake dust were about 5-10% of the dust produced by light cars. The rest being tailpipe emissions. Of course brake dust, tire dust, and exhaust PM2.5 aren't the same types of dust. So feels to me like grasping for straws especially considering no one makes the same arguments against large SUV's and trucks.

ogzk 4y ago

[flagged]

replygirl 4y ago
proximity to public transportation is one of the strongest indicators of economic mobility
hammock 4y ago
> We’ll never have public transport because Wait, we…do…have public transport. Effective and useful public transport. In NYC 60% of people commute with it. Boston, DC, SF, Chicago, Philadelphia… You might have a specific gripe because it doesn’t take you exactly where you want to go with exactly the comfort you think you need, but these places have public transit that is good enough for hundreds of thousands or even millions to use every day
- ericd 4y ago
  Having lived in a few of those cities, I’d say NYC is very much the exception. It’d be great if every major city’s public transit was as good, but it’s inadequate or barely adequate for a large percentage of the area of those other cities.
r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
If you look outside of the USA lots of cities have good public transport systems that aren't plagued by poverty, crime, homelessness and mental illness. Just because Americans have decided to optimize their society to maximize misery of a minority for the benefit of an even smaller minority doesn't make it necessary.
- blfr 4y ago
  It's the other way round: cities that aren't plagued by homelessness, rampant drug use, and criminality can have good public transit. Middle class people simply won't pay (in taxes or directly) for public transit that acts as a homeless shelter and routinely features crimes against them.

hammock 4y ago

> That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road And brake dust, which includes a lot of metal

ceejayoz 4y ago
EVs make substantially less of that, due to regenerative braking.
- hammock 4y ago
  What portion of drivers use one pedal?
  - gambiting 4y ago
    You don't need to have the one pedal driving enabled to reap the benefits. In all EVs and PHEVs you brake with the electric motors first even when using the actual pedal - normal brakes are engaged only past a certain threshold. Also to give a personal anecdote, in my Volvo XC60 PHEV, I've just had the inspection done and after 24k miles the brake pads are 5% worn. That's insane for a 2.2 tonne SUV with 400bhp. If it wasn't a PHEV I can guarantee that the pads would be nearly worn by now.
    - potatochup 4y ago
      > you brake with the electric motors first This is not true. At least for Teslas, the brake pedal only controls the friction brakes (they are hydraulically coupled). Same with a Chevy bolt. Unsure on other EVs
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        In Teslas, any time your foot is completely off the accelerator, you're getting maximum regenerative braking. If you then press the brake pedal too, you're getting maximum regenerative braking plus friction braking.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> So much of our intellectual and financial energy seems to be directed toward overclocking the horse and buggy I don't personally think it's realistic to expect everybody/all people (who mainly work for a living/work hard) to ask them to give up the luxury of spending their hard earned money on being able to transport themselves (to and from their job) in something other than the comfort of their own car. I think you're suggesting "we should all be doing public transport, it's more efficient." You aren't wrong, but there's a human/emotional element/aspect here.

JimtheCoder 4y ago
Personally, my time in my car is some of the only pure "me" time I have, and I would hazard a guess that it is the same for many others. A car to me is a personal, climate controlled cocoon, where I can turn on whatever music I want, have a coffee or a snack, and escape for the 30 minutes or however long it takes to reach my destination...without the chance of being bothered by anyone else, much less any of the other belligerents that you are sure to find on public transit from time to time. I will continue to own and drive my own car for this simple fact...
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  I love driving as much as the next person but being on the roads at commuting time is hell on earth. Battling all of the other sleep deprived idiots to travel 3 miles in an hour. It's awful.
  - dzikimarian 4y ago
    For me it's 15 minutes in pretty relaxed traffic and music/audiobook. Garage to office door + easy detour to shop if necessary. In the summer bike is nice alternative, but during bad weather there's nothing comparable to the comfort of car. Please remember not everyone lives in bay area with long commute and mild weather all year long :-)
    - michaelteter 4y ago