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Wyoming senators want to phase out sales of EVs
- luma 4y agoPerformative legislation by the party you think would do such a thing but imagine if they actually passed it. What happens when it's illegal to buy the only cars that are available for sale?
- superkuh 4y agoDefinitely performative, just like the similar legislation by nation states and US states trying to make internal combustion cars illegal. California has the infrastructure and population all squeezed into valleys/coastlines combined with very temperate climate making it perfect for EVs. Wyoming has it's population spread out equally everywhere and has little EV infrastructure and terribly cold climate. But neither of these states should be trying to pass these silly laws just to highlight their respective situations.
- JohnBooty 4y agoCalifornia Ever been to LA? No, obviously. But I assure you the smog there is not "performative."
- hef19898 4y agoDoesn't matter, most big car OEMs are going to stop ICE production somewhere around he 2035 mark anyway, whether there are laws or not. Doesn't mean it illegal to own old ICE vehicles so, just that there won't any new ones being sold anymore.
- rsj_hn 4y agoI very much doubt this will happen. Toyota announced it will continue to produce ICE cars, and other major manufacturers will walk back their vague "goals" once the utopian goals are revealed to be impractical. Or perhaps the goals will just keep getting pushed forward and there will be lip service paid to them during the annual Davos conferences. Several US automakers may not make it, though. They are long past their sell by date anyways, and will probably go out of business after abandoning ICE production.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoScroll down to the part of my below citation where each jurisdiction is identified with new combustion vehicle sales bans. This forces auto supply chains to reconfigure or die. Some jurisdictions might walk their bans back, but you only require a critical mass of the total addressable market to stick to it for it to remain effective. “As California goes, so goes the nation.” and all the jazz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...
- rsj_hn 4y agoScroll down to the part where something was actually enacted as opposed to being promised to be enacted long after the legislators leave office. These "plans", "pledges" are about as reliable as carbon net zero promises. It is purely performative. You may not have noticed, but carbon emissions keep going up. As does coal use [https://www.iea.org/news/the-world-s-coal-consumption-is-set-to-reach-a-new-high-in-2022-as-the-energy-crisis-shakes-markets https://www.iea.org/news/the-world-s-coal-consumption-is-set...]. But lets have another pledge, it will all be phased out in 2040! Also, the part about California leading the nation has stopped being true a long time ago. California is an object lesson in government dysfunction, wacky ideas, a crazy, utopian electorate that is disconnected from reality and a shrinking population as people flee to more sane jurisdictions where things actually work. It is by far the most hated state in the nation, and is generally used as a slur.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoCalifornia is the world’s fourth largest economy and has 12% of the US population (39 million compared to the 600k folks living in Wyoming). It’ll continue to be an economic powerhouse long after people complaining online about the state are gone. If complaining makes you feel better, do so, but it doesn’t change the facts. It’s certainly not going to hurt California [1]. Edit: I have never lived in California. [1] https://youtu.be/LlOSdRMSG_k https://youtu.be/LlOSdRMSG_k
- 4y ago
- oceanplexian 4y agoIt will take several decades to upgrade the grid to handle EVs. Look at places like California where the grid can’t even keep up with air conditioners, and they want to charge tens of millions of cars with it? Building power plants and electric infrastructure takes decades. And if electricity is less reliable and more expensive than gasoline (which is what will inevitably happen in any market where demand is greater than supply), then there’s no economic incentive for anyone to buy EVs.
- edmundsauto 4y agoThe funny part is that Wyoming is too small a market to change automakers strategy. If they enacted this, It would result in their citizens just not being able to buy new cars in 15 years.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoCombustion emissions are terrible in California due to them being held over population centers, caused by mountain geography and prevailing winds. It makes sense for them to encourage EV uptake and outlaw new combustion vehicle sales. Air pollution kills, this science is settled. They also, on average, generate roughly half of their daily electrical demands from solar (per CAISO and ElectricityMap.org). Wyoming has no excuse. It’s willful ignorance attempting to protect a dying industry. They’re attempting the same with their coal industry, so it’s not unexpected, just disappointing. https://trib.com/business/energy/demand-for-wyoming-coal-is-collapsing-seismic-changes-are-ahead-for-the-state/article_c1c779b4-8de4-11ed-8e53-a76dd4b949a4.html https://trib.com/business/energy/demand-for-wyoming-coal-is-...
- alexose 4y agoThe situations are quite different. For one, California's laws do actually influence the auto manufacturing sector. They're typically the tip of the spear when it comes to things like emissions standards. Because the state represents such a big part of the auto buying market, it's usually easier for manufacturers to go along with the regulations (rather than introducing separate supply chains for vehicles sold in various states).
- klyrs 4y ago> What happens when it's illegal to buy the only cars that are available for sale? Wyoming will start to look like Cuba: people will drive antiques, and local machinists will crop up to reproduce out-of-stock parts. They've got oil, so presumably they could even maintain their own gasoline supply through corporate welfare. As the second least-populous (people per square mile) state in the union, I think they could even pull it off. Richer Wyomingians will be able to buy electric cars out of state, but if it gets that far, I suspect such a choice would bear substantial physical risk even driving around in one (which is already a nuisance in some places).
- ElfinTrousers 4y agoOr more likely after eighteen to twenty-four months of Rugged Individualism (TM) everyone will get sick of going against the flow and change the law.
- slfisher 4y agoI would expect Wyoming residents to have problems with electric cars anyway, due to a lack of charging stations (and I wouldn't be surprised to see vandalism). I don't live in Wyoming, but I used to live in Idaho, and the mentality is similar.
- jmclnx 4y agoI am sure that will work, a state with a population less than a tiny neighborhood in New York City thinking this will make an impact, good luck with that :) Also I do not know how they can stop the creation of charging stations. IIRC, Biden wants to pepper Interstate highways with charging stations. So at the very least, there will still be stations in WY no matter what that bill says.
- hef19898 4y agoThey still have the same number on Senators, don't they?
- sundaeofshock 4y agoYeah. So what? Wyoming is a state with a shrinking population, whose 581,000 residents represent 0.17% of the US population. Laws passed there will have a vanishingly small impact on the manufacturing decisions of any major auto company.
- __derek__ 4y agoInterstate highways are owned/operated/maintained by the states. The federal government can (attempt to) influence what happens along them, but it's not going to build anything itself.
- sokoloff 4y agoThe reason we had a standardized 55 mph speed limit and 21 as the drinking age was via federal interstate highway funding being made contingent on those things.
- __derek__ 4y agoRight, "the federal government can (attempt to) influence what happens along them." Of course, that particular brand of influence has waned in recent decades for obvious reasons.
- cs702 4y agoThe stated goal, according to the legislators proposing this, is to "ensure the stability" of the oil and gas industry. Humankind's ability to reach new heights of stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
- kurthr 4y agoIt's a hilarious and performative fall from grace from those who idolize free markets, say the government should not "pick winners", and rail against the nanny state.
- heyoni 4y ago[flagged]
- smt88 4y ago[flagged]
- CincinnatiMan 4y agoWho is "they" in your comment?
- notinfuriated 4y agoI'm guessing the people who supposedly "idolize free markets" yet clearly do not based on their actions.
- tifik 4y agoIt's an answer to the parent, which specifically says... > those who idolize free markets, say the government should not "pick winners", and rail against the nanny state. ...but then act in the opposite way to the beliefs they say they hold. The comment you are replying to adds that the group of people that behave like this likely has an overlap with people that... > use the Bible as a weapon without embodying the values of Jesus. So to me that would be a group of people I'd readily label as hypocrites, self-dealing populists or straight up liars.
- makerofspoons 4y agoAround this time last year there were only 460 EVs registered in Wyoming: https://www.wyomingnews.com/rawlinstimes/news/charging-forward-state-moves-ahead-with-plans-to-electrify-corridors/article_e9adc5d3-4c07-5678-9a06-c29194365ecb.html https://www.wyomingnews.com/rawlinstimes/news/charging-forwa... Most EVs in the state are visitors and the highways are going to be electrified anyway. This is going to do nothing to save the oil and gas industry.
- ohjeez 4y agoOh, that's interesting. Rather a chicken and egg situation then. "The median ratio across the US is 14.2 EVs to ports, with Wyoming having the best (lowest) ratio at 4.2 to 1 and New Jersey had the worst (highest) at 41.7 to 1." https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/charging-stations-by-state/ https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/charg... Would be nice to factor in population, too.
- ElfinTrousers 4y agoGotta keep in mind though that Wyoming has a population of about 600,000 people, or roughly the population of the city of Milwaukee--for those unfamiliar, that's not an especially big city either.
- _fizz_buzz_ 4y agoYeah, that is not going to happen. The momentum that EVs have at the moment, I would be surprised if there even is a mainstream ICE car available in 2035.
- phpisthebest 4y agoThere are still very serious concerns with Used Market values, and the ablity for people to not buy a ticking time bomb that is a battery replacement on the used market Unless that is solved EV;s will never break 20-30% of sales
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoUsed cars are already ticking time bombs because of the engine, transmissions, etc…being able to measure battery wear definitively without hiring an mechanic to closely go over it actually makes an EV a much safer used car buy than an ICE.
- phpisthebest 4y ago>>being able to measure battery wear definitively That is the problem right there, I do not believe they can do that that definitively, and there are more than a few horror stories already where a person buys a Used EV, the battery tested fine on purchase, but then just a few months later a cell goes out... and since you can not just replace a single cell well now they have a $20,000 bill often more than the car is worth >>Used cars are already ticking time bombs because of the engine, transmissions, etc this is a known risk already assimilated into the market, with network of repair options and 3rd party parts dealers to lower the cost of repairs EV manufacturers are trying (often successfully) at blocking these 3rd party repair options and making the cost to repair an EV $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
- sokoloff 4y agoI agree that a definitive measure of battery health is not available (in two senses: the ones available are not conclusive and they are easily tampered with). I disagree that the batteries are not serviceable. My car has had a module replacement which served to restore battery and vehicle capacity after a single module (mostly) failed. That was done at a dealer under warranty, but there are many aftermarket suppliers capable of doing the same (and I’d have DIY’d it in my driveway if it wasn’t covered under warranty).
- briga 4y ago>The proliferation of electric vehicles at the expense of gas-powered vehicles will have deleterious impacts on … the ability for the country to efficiently engage in commerce. Literal nonsense. Surely countries efficiently engaging in commerce don’t need artificial controls on which products they can and can’t sell
- amalgamated_inc 4y agoFunny how this is an outrage, but the opposite is totally cool. I assume they are just pointing out this blatant hypocrisy with this move :)
- zuminator 4y agoMaybe you could say double standards, but... hypocrisy? The side making pro-EV laws has never claimed love for unfettered free markets so where's the hypocrisy?
- amalgamated_inc 4y agoSure ok, you're right.
- throwaway46829 4y agoIt's not hypocrisy, the other side isn't now saying "we need freedom of choice" they're still fine with the principle of banning things, they just want the other thing banned, simple disagreement. Another example, politician A makes a personal attack, politician B says personal attacks are wrong and then makes one themselves = hypocrisy. If they just reply with another personal attack without the moral objection = not hypocrisy.
- amalgamated_inc 4y agoOk, banning ICE is not hypocritical then, but complaining about this is :)
- zaroth 4y agoIt’s exactly as absurd as the alternative legislation to “phase out” (what a bizarre turn of phrase) ICE vehicles. And I say this as an EV owner. The concept of banning one tech or another in this way is backwards thinking and stems from ignorance of the power and beauty of market economics. People (in the aggregate) will buy the products that work best for them at the price they can afford. Now it’s true those products often have externalities, sometimes even directly harmful to the people that are buying them! (e.g. fast food) Except in the gravest product safety sense, these products should be left to compete with each other in the great world marketplace. The aim of government should be to subsidize the innovations that make products with the best externalities safer, cleaner, faster, better, cheaper, etc. to the point where they can stand alone and win in the open market. In the case of EVs, what we need is not bans on ICE vehicles in some ever closer looming date. What we’ll need is massive infrastructure improvements to support the intrinsic demand for the truly better/cheaper/faster/safer product. The initial round of subsidies have more than achieved the boost up the learning curve to make these products ultra competitive. We are rapidly approaching the point where the only reason someone wouldn’t by an EV is because either it’s truly inappropriate for their use case (see: plows in NYC) or they simply don’t have a convenient way to charge it.
- whydoyoucare 4y agoOr they don't wish to buy an EV. The choice should remain. Someone supporting a ban on gas vehicles because it is harmful to the environment, should also be ready to support similar bans on cigarettes, alcohol and fast food, because they are directly harmful to us.
- ElfinTrousers 4y agoThe difference is that your consumption of fast food and liquor doesn't hurt anyone else. Secondhand cigarette smoke does, and guess what, that's exactly why there's laws against smoking inside so many places now. Similarly, I don't care for you using my air for a garbage dump for the waste products from your car.
- ElfinTrousers 4y ago
- JohnBooty 4y agoMisleading headline. "A group of state legislators propose a law" != "State ABC wants to XYZ" This is a law proposed by a small group of state legislators. Of course, all laws start as bills like this. But most bills never become law. A more responsible and less sensationalistic story would talk about the level of support for such a bill, its chances of becoming actual law, its constitutionality, and so on. This is newsworthy, but not when reported like this.
- remote_phone 4y agoCan we penalize sites that provide misleading headlines? I’m so sick of sites twisting the facts like this, if we could build a list of sites that don’t manipulate the facts and just present things straight I would love it.
- xnx 4y ago> Can we penalize sites that provide misleading headlines? Or the members that submit them
- ohjeez 4y agoWell as the OP on this one, I contemplated changing the headline (which was too long in any case)... but in other circumstances we get in trouble with a community for changing a headline to opine. I err on the side of "just report what the publication says" and let others (appropriately) criticize bad headline-writing.
- JohnBooty 4y agoChanging the headline is not encouraged/allowed on HN; the mods will usually (always?) change it to reflect the actual one. The issue here is that you linked to a low quality source. As I said, this is newsworthy IMO. But surely there was a better quality source you might have chosen.
- 4y ago
- sys_64738 4y agoIt's about protectionism by the sounds of it. You can't produce what others don't want so this really won't go anywhere in the long run. Just a vote grabber in the short term.
- moistly 4y agoWRT ICE vehicles no longer being manufactured: ain’t happening. Purchasing or licensing an ICE vehicle may become a reality in some (wealthy) countries. It is not happening in third-world countries, eg. Mexico. Simple fact is that the utilities infrastructure is not there. Walking through any working-class neighbourhood shows it, even in relatively modern cities like Puerto Vallarta, let alone looking at any of the small towns scattered across the nation. As’ anyone living in a small town along the popular Costa Alegre: brown-outs and black-outs are common. There is no capacity whatsoever to start hooking up charging stations for the population.
- Gibbon1 4y agoYou can run the numbers to estimate the cost of solar panels needed to run an electric car in some place like Puerto Vallarta. Assume the car drives 12500 miles a year. Likely less in Puerto Vallarta unless it's used as a cab. But whatever. Typical EV's get 3.5 to 4 miles per kwh. Call it 3.75 miles/kwh. So need 12500/3.75 => 3333 kwh/year. One Watt of solar produces about 2kwh/year. So need 3333 kwh / 2kwh/Watt => 1666 Watts Assume Mexico cost for an array is $2/Watt. Cost is 1666 Watts X $2/Watt => $3333 That's about a 1/10 to 1/20th the cost of a new EV.
- moistly 4y agoI’m not sure what your point is. Working lower-class Mexicans can’t afford a new vehicle, much less a bunch of solar panels as well. They are not going to transition to EVs within your lifetime.
- kthejoker2 4y agoForget EVs, Wyoming makes up less than 0.2% of the total US car market https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/ranks/Car-sales?mode=amp https://knoema.com/atlas/United-States-of-America/ranks/Car-... I say let them be an economic laboratory.
- TheCoelacanth 4y agoI, for one, am thrilled that a state will finally experiment with making a completely car-free state (because no one is going to produce ICE cars for a market the size of Wyoming).