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What finally got me to setup pi-hole on an old Raspberry Pi was getting an LG OLED TV. The webOS apps for YouTube and Plex are pretty convenient, but the TV was

by mafuyu 4y ago

What finally got me to setup pi-hole on an old Raspberry Pi was getting an LG OLED TV. The webOS apps for YouTube and Plex are pretty convenient, but the TV was absolutely packed with ads via the home screen and pop-up toasts. To add insult to injury, the home screen would lag for several seconds at boot while it pulled down all those ads. And then I discovered that even after opting out of all the telemetry options, it was making DNS queries for _several_ data mining services that analyze what's being shown on the TV. I didn't Wireshark it to see what API calls it was making, but clearly opting out in the menu wasn't enough. After some passes of scanning the pi-hole logs and adding to the blacklist, my TV is snappier and ad-free. :) Definitely will not be going with LG for my next TV, though. It's mind blowing to me that this is the user experience on a TV that costs over $1k. As for the pi-hole setup itself, it's working great. It's a great backup to locally installed adblockers, and I have my EdgeRouter as the primary DHCP DNS server, which makes requests to pi-hole. Both the router and pi-hole have caching, and my DNS query latencies are good. Pi-hole also has a nice interface for pointing `.local` domains to local IP addresses, which is much easier than messing with dnsmasq settings on the EdgeRouter.

metadat 4y ago
I wrote a recommendation about this 7 months ago (oh my, how time flies): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31707222 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31707222 tl;dr: If the TV is working well enough already, it may be ill-advised to connect it to the network. The apps, while convenient, can be supplanted by an external AppleTV or similar for minimal cost relative to a nice TV. This protects the TV not only from being a privacy threat and general ad-ridden nuisance, but also from receiving potentially harmful updates that can lead to performance regressions.
- ErikCorry 4y ago
  Offline TV plus online Chromecast works fine for me.
- kapep 4y ago
  That just seems to shift all concerns from one device to another. Is AppleTV or similar devices so much better when it comes to privacy? Or is the selling point just that they don't show ads?
gurchik 4y ago
> Pi-hole also has a nice interface for pointing `.local` domains to local IP addresses, which is much easier than messing with dnsmasq settings on the EdgeRouter. This is why I have Pi-hole set up as well. I wanted to have custom DNS records so I can resolve multiple named services to the single IP they're hosted on. With my Ubiquiti Security Gateway you have to do this by SSHing in and modifying the dnsmasq settings. It's much easier for me to manage this on Pi-hole. The DNS request metrics and blocking are just a bonus for me.
laurencei 4y ago
I love my LG TVs. The problem is, for anyone who wants a smart TV, every brand is just as bad. Samsung, Sony etc. I know some people say "get a dumb TV" and use chromecast etc - but I just want an all in one integration etc.
- mafuyu 4y ago
  I've heard that the high end Sony Bravia TVs are better in this regard, but haven't confirmed it myself. They are quite a bit more expensive than the other OLED TVs on the market, however. One thing I've been feeling lately with internet-connected home devices is that I'm being pushed towards products from big tech companies like Google. Google might mine my data still, but at least they'll ostensibly do it competently and securely. Not a great feeling. Despite not really being in the Google ecosystem, maybe my next TV will be one with Android TV support. On the smart home side, I did get into self-hosting Home Assistant recently. I didn't expect much from it at first, but it's remarkable how liberating and useful it feels compared to the one-size-fits-all approach of Google Home or HomeKit. I'm actually excited to try and get some more smart home devices now, beyond just a few lightbulbs.
  - Garrrrrr 4y ago
    Anon gathered around and hacked Sony back in 2011 (mainly) because of the absorbent information they were gathering from everyone's PlayStation 3 consoles. They never stopped gathering an obscene amount of information from their users, and nether did any other mid-major technology company. Google knows everything about you/us if you use their services. It's really bad, we know. For some of us that's inescapable because of our careers/jobs, or if we use Google search on our own devices on our networks compared to alternative platforms. Even your smart lightbulbs are gathering data on you. Android (AND Android TV) is Google: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/android-sends-20x-more-data-to-google-than-ios-sends-to-apple-study-says/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/android-sends-20x-mo...
    - aeonik 4y ago
      Exorbitant fits better than absorbent, but it's still an interesting use of absorbent. Something like "Absorbent nature they have for information" if you still want to use absorbent.
kxrm 4y ago
Just be aware that some apps will bypass the local net DNS settings and hard code Google DNS or a third party DNS. I have a firewall rule in my router that redirects those queries to my pi-hole.
- tomschlick 4y ago
  Now they are starting to use Dns over Https to get around those restrictions. Super scummy
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    I have no idea how people are going to defeat DNS over HTTPS, as it seems to mean (and please correct me if I am wrong) that allowing this thing on my network, well, I will just never be able to know what it is doing or to whom it is talking.
    - ignoramous 4y ago
      I happen to develop an open source, no-root, network monitor, and firewall for Android. We let users block connections to IPs that have no corresponding DNS request. Of course, genuine reasons to connect directly to IPs exist, but not so much for installed apps.
      - sureglymop 4y ago
        What's the name of your tool/app?
        ignoramous 4y ago
        https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app
        sureglymop 4y ago
        Really cool! Thanks for sharing.
KerrAvon 4y ago
I have a PiHole, but I also disable networking on any TV in the house and use an AppleTV instead of the native TV apps. LG and Samsung will eventually route around ad blockers by bypassing DNS altogether.
- powvans 4y ago
  Eventually they’ll just route around this by connecting to your neighbor’s Ring doorbell or your Nest thermostat or whatever random internet connected thing that it can reach out and pass packets through.
  - password4321 4y ago
    Amazon Sidewalk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27182822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27182822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27115809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27115809 Apple FindMy Network https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27130355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27130355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26877484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26877484
  - satori99 4y ago
    ...or just put a cellular modem on the BOM, and have the advertisers pay for it.
    - derwiki 4y ago
      Bingo. Don’t many new cars do this?
      - ProllyInfamous 4y ago
        This is what scared me most when Volvo switched their infotainment over to Google products (and a contributing reason why I chose not to purchase a new XC60 Recharge).
  - harshalizee 4y ago
    Most likely they will start coming with their own cellular network capabilities built in, bypassing any need for a network connection. They would also be able to screen capture and analyze whatever you watch, even on external devices like apple tv and inject ads directly as an overlay. The thought just sickens me.
thrwawy74 4y ago
I emailed the LG CEO and some of the executive board and said (in colorful language) that the only reason I bought this TV was because the quality was unmatched. For the moment LG is the only vendor where I can get an OLED TV like this. But as soon as there are competitors I will remember never to buy LG again for the terrible ad and tv menu experience. I also said how annoying it was that you commit to a particular smart assistant (google or alexa), and the TV will nag you to set up Alexa. I made my choice leave me alone. The analogy is Tesla is the only one making good electric cars. When there's competition, I will never buy Tesla because of the shitty experience. Also for >$1k it should let you use the TV as an HDMI multiviewer. It has 4 HDMI ports on the back, let me view plug in my personal laptop on the port 1, work laptop on port 2, and divide the screen to give each laptop a "2nd monitor". Or even 2 monitors each.
- smolyeet 4y ago
  I just wish TVs were just the panel without all the smart features. I only use the Apple TV anyways.
  - miah_ 4y ago
    Google Dumb TV, there are still plenty of vendors selling them. They are frequently seen in Airports..
    - djbusby 4y ago
      Alibaba has them. I'm running a Scepter 2018 model, just cause it's dumb. Smart devices, dumb display.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      > They are frequently seen in Airports.. You mean for advertising, showing timetables, etc? Those are usually "digital signage" panels. Colors may or may not be OK on those, but there are two things to keep in mind: 1. They are outrageously expensive because they're made to be run blindingly bright 24/7. 2. They are less and less dumb, complete with ridiculously long startup times. The company I work for uses these. And while a few years ago only the higher-priced ones used to feature "smart" features, the "cheaper" ones now have them, too. Now, in our case, we like those because it allows us to control the screens from a central location, and they don't require setting up a Raspberry Pi or similar to show content on them. But "dumb" they are not anymore. They're typically running some form of Android or Samsung's Tizen. I don't directly use them, so I don't know the details, but a quick glance at Samsung's website seems to show that consumer models use Tizen, too.
nunez 4y ago
we just got a super shiny brand new samsung s95b that's oled and really nice but it will never see the light of day on the Internet precisely because of this bullshit.
- amatecha 4y ago
  yeah, it's super frustrating how they try so hard to get you to enter your wifi credentials, too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
"It's mind blowing to me that this is the user experience on a TV that costs over $1k." Perhaps this will put to rest the idea that internet-based tracking and advertising are necessary for products and services to be "free" and paying for these products and services is a way to "remove the ads". Even paying a high premium to a company that privacy washes^1 its products will not stop the data collection and advertising. Some companies can survive without using the internet to violate privacy for profit. Anyone born before 1993 knows this is true. Certainly a company like LG could survive, however "tech" companies cannot.^2 Conducting commercial surveillance on internet users is too easy. It's like money on the table. There is still inadequate regulation to slow it down, let alone stop it. Companies that connect their products to the internet can cash in on "tech" company intermediary-style surveillance. Welcome to the "Internet of Things". Being able to control DNS in the home is essential, IMHO. Hopefully Pi-Hole users are not pointing dnsmasq at shared caches run by entities engaged in data collection for commercial purposes and internet advertising services, whether those are ISPs or Google or similar. 1. https://www.context.news/surveillance/opinion/user-beware-privacy-washing-online-is-real https://www.context.news/surveillance/opinion/user-beware-pr... https://dt.gl/privacy-washing-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/ https://dt.gl/privacy-washing-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/ https://dataethics.eu/privacy-washing/ https://dataethics.eu/privacy-washing/ https://medium.com/discernible/communicators-steer-clear-of-privacy-washing-a3b19e1a3efd https://medium.com/discernible/communicators-steer-clear-of-... https://getsession.org/blog/privacy-washing https://getsession.org/blog/privacy-washing 2. The now classic "tech" company meme is that the internet, what other folks would call the web, would not exist without advertising. Yet it did exist before advertising was permitted, so that cannot be true. It still worked and no one using it wanted to see advertising. The person who put the first ad on the internet was globally lambasted.^3 Citing this historical fact does not imply anyone wants to go back in time to the early internet. It just means that the "tech" company meme that the internet does not work without advertising, without "tech" company intermediaries conducting extensive surveillance on every internet user to support this advertising, is pure BS. "Tech" companies try to use FUD something like, "If anyone changes anything that interferes with advertising, then the internet and therefore life itself will suck." Yeah, right. As if "tech" companies are the only sources of vision for the future. They want a future that continues to let them profit obscenely from using the internet for unregulated data collection and advertising. 3. https://web.archive.org/web/20080919130455/http://www.l-ware.com/ny_times_q__a__october_16_1994.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080919130455/http://www.l-ware...
gambiting 4y ago
I've got an LG CX TV and I haven't seen any ads anywhere - which models are affected by this, do you know?
- mafuyu 4y ago
  I've got the LG G1. AFAIK, all the webOS models are affected.
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Which country? Never seen this behaviour, so maybe it is region specific
    - mafuyu 4y ago
      This is in the US. If you search online, it seems to be a commonly reported issue, with some articles saying LG started ramping up the ads a year or two ago. Maybe older firmwares don't get the ads?
      - gambiting 4y ago
        I'm literally on the very latest firmware on my LG CX, connected to the internet, use the apps all the time and I have zero ads on mine, never did anything to block them either - I'm in the UK. I wonder if that's actually some kind of EU/UK regulation that's absent in the US that's preventing this.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Mine started about a year after I bought the TV with no updates done (and the TV rooted, blocking updates) in AU.
- blue_cookeh 4y ago
  Maybe it depends on the country? I've got a LG C9 and can't recall _ever_ getting any ads in webOS since buying it. In fact, the most annoying thing is the Rakuten button I never use on the "smart" remote. I've overall been very happy with our LG TV and have been recommending it highly over our old Samsung - which was slowly updated to remove features and eventually took about 45 seconds to boot up.
labster 4y ago
Wait, you want a telescreen that doesn’t watch you back? Citizen, this is ungood crimethink. Plusungood crimethink! Thankfully, it’s almost unpossible to buy a telescreen without telemetry (and always has been), so Big Brother will know what you are doing. But you should still stop by the local MiniLuv for reeducation, just in case.
- mcbits 4y ago
  > Thankfully, it’s almost unpossible to buy a telescreen without telemetry (and always has been) Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I recall being able t&%@^0158 NNNNNNNN@*^& NO CARRIER
  - newsclues 4y ago
    You can get the same panels as business signage displays (often) but you pay more for less features. It should be illegal to make money selling a TV and data mining people without their informed consent.
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      You could simplify that to "illegal to datamine without informed consent" or even "illegal to datamine".
      - ianai 4y ago
        Probably all it would take is defining peoples private property to include their personal information and “generated data” or something. Might even be something a suitable legal eagle could win in a lawsuit.
  - nsb1 4y ago
    "MOM! HANG UP THE PHONE!"
bitwise101 4y ago
Would you mind sharing the domains you blacklisted? Edit: found this on GitHub https://gist.github.com/wassname/78eeaaad299dc4cddd04e372f20a9aa7 https://gist.github.com/wassname/78eeaaad299dc4cddd04e372f20...
- mafuyu 4y ago
  Here are the blacklist domains I've accrued (some rules might be redundant or out of date): ngfts.lge.com us.ad.lgsmartad.com lgad.cjpowercast.com us.info.lgsmartad.com aic.recommend.lgtvcommon.com aic.homeprv.lgtvcommon.com aid.rdl.lgtvcommon.com aic.lgshopsvc.lgappstv.com ^aic.*lg.* us.emp.lgsmartplatform.com snu.lge.com us.lgrecommends.lgappstv.com api.thetake.com us.lgtvsdp.com aic.service.lgtvcommon.com lgtvonline.lge.com (\.|^)gracenote\.com$ (\.|^)prehook\.com$ raw.vidyard.com (\.|^)vidyard\.com$ (\.|^)wistia\.com$
- DavideNL 4y ago
  There's a specific list for it: https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/ https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/ It's listed on https://firebog.net/ https://firebog.net/
alex_young 4y ago
Just don’t give it your wifi info. Put a box you control on it and make it a dumb tv again.
- amelius 4y ago
  They probably have a deal with your cable company that provides your router.
  - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
    Why would your wifi be served from a box provided by your ISP? That's a bad idea.
- toastal 4y ago
  There's been cases where TVs sent data signals back to the cable boxes over coax. There's now high-frequency, outside-human-hearing ID triggers the that are released into the air and ‘heard’ by smart phones with proprietary apps installed with trackers and too many permissions allowed. They can even send out signals via gyroscopes.
6ak74rfy 4y ago
I bought an LG OLED TV couple of months ago during the Cyber Monday sale. > but the TV was absolutely packed with ads via the home screen and pop-up toasts. To add insult to injury, the home screen would lag for several seconds at boot while it pulled down all those ads. I was shocked to read this. I've been running AdGuard Home for awhile now and had no idea that my TV was capable of showing me so many ads. Even my spouse breathed a sigh of relief (and possibly admired my setup just a little!) when I read her these lines.
- sgtnoodle 4y ago
  I got an LG C2 and immediately plugged a Roku into it. I've spent less than 5 minutes total looking at WebOS. I also have OpenWRT's ad block setup enabled on my router. If there are ads on its home screen, I am blind to them.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    You may as well get a RokuTV and avoid the remote juggling for volume control.
    - jaguar1878 4y ago
      We use a Roku with an LG OLED, mostly to avoid connecting the TV to the internet. Turns out if you use the HDMI ARC for audio (we connected to a soundbar) and everything in the chain is new enough, then the Roku remote volume buttons will adjust the soundbar volume just fine. Roku remote can also turn the TV on and off, so we don't need the LG remote now except to change to a different input.
    - sgtnoodle 4y ago
      Are there any Roku TVs with EVO OLED panels? The Roku remote controls TV power and soundbar volume just fine. CEC didn't seem to work quite right, so I enabled the Roku's IR blaster feature. The LG remote can control the Roku as well, through CEC.
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
(#inlcude my typical rant about why in the US the consumers are not better protected against such ads, this is completely illegal in Europe) I used to have an EdgeRouter which was a huge improvement to the ISP-provided crappy box but ultimately the configuration was so complicated and inconsistent that I switched to a small fanless debian box. I put Pi-Hole there, which also covered DHCP and DNS services (synchronized together). It has been a blast and I have more confidence that I will understand what is happening (vs the ER magic)
kmlx 4y ago
> but the TV was absolutely packed with ads via the home screen and pop-up toasts i also have an oled tv from lg and haven’t seen any ads on the home screen but did get 1-2 pop-ups about a year ago. but that’s about it. it’s a 4 year old model, running a webos version that can’t be updated to the latest one. i also bought it in europe. does anyone know if what the poster describes happens based on continent/country, or webos version? it seems so strange to have such a great panel, pretty much the best OS, and relatively high prices just to spoil it all with ads worth pennies.
- oktoberpaard 4y ago
  Same experience here from another European user. I've only accepted the bare minimum to be able to use and update the TV and its apps. I haven't seen any ads ever, or not that I can remember anyway. Not even recommendations for TV shows and the likes. It's an LG C9 with an older version of webOS. I do see in the DNS logs that the TV and some of the apps connect to analytics domains.
hnlmorg 4y ago
I used to swear by LG TVs because their smart features used to be one or the few on t he market that wasn’t intrusive. I even have a bunch of friends who have bought LG TVs based on my recommendations. But the one I bought a couple of weeks ago had the same issues you described and it has left a really sour taste in my mouth too. As an aside, can you share the additional domains you added to PiHole please.
- mafuyu 4y ago
  Yeah, it's a real bummer. I posted my list in a sibling comment chain. Looks like others have also posted links to blocklists for smart TVs as well.
cyri 4y ago
I also have a pihole in my network and it blocks 30% of all requests. But for TV I use a NEC MultiSync ME501 50“. A dump display. Use it my home gym for Zwift and workout displays.
nickpp 4y ago
Strange, I have a couple of C9 LG OLED a few years old connected to WiFi and up to date and I never saw any ads nor popups. I am using them sparingly though, and I live in EU, if that makes any difference.
austinjp 4y ago
For those in the UK looking for a dumb TV, I recently bought a Veltech VE40FO01UK for £180. With a Freeview box and Chromecast, it's all I need. It would make me furious to find ads in software that I've already paid for. Hopefully when I need to replace this TV there will still be options.
- teekert 4y ago
  It is in the EU.
mihaaly 4y ago
Luckily I came accross knowing this abysmal insult from the greedy and user hostile TV manufacturers and avoided LG in the first place. They are banned in my household for life. But in second place thought to go for a huge PC monitor (for me it is 43", enough in this household) and AppleTV (which is ok so far concerning ads ... so far) which eventually turned into a Sony instead disconnected from netwoks completely (I simply like the Sony's screen features, build style and hardware quality). But in the very first place I kept my old TV as long as it was physicly possible. I will not feed this dishonest bullying of intrusive schemers. Pi-hole seems a more elaborate and powerful approach though.
pmontra 4y ago
I'm watching TV right now while having lunch. I'm watching it on a tablet, with VLC, started by TVH Client, which is a client for TVHeadend, running on a Raspberry with a TV hat. I'm also using that tablet to type this message because VLC has a popup player. I can use the tablet to run every app I could run on a smart TV. I also own a 32" LG TV which I almost never use because carrying the tablet with me around my house is much more convenient thn sitting in front of the TV. I block ads with Blockada and I don't have ads in YouTube because I use NewPipe.
SympleScience 4y ago
> it was making DNS queries for _several_ data mining services that analyze what's being shown on the TV. What? I don't believe you. Are you saying if you are using it as a PC monitor it would effectively send data back about apps you're using, games you're playing, etc? this would have incredible privacy violation implications.
- breakingcups 4y ago
  You better believe it: https://theviewpoint.com/insights/blog/automatic-content-recognition-acr-whys-and-hows/ https://theviewpoint.com/insights/blog/automatic-content-rec...
TheHappyOddish 4y ago
Do that pcap, it's doing _a lot_. Mine's on a seperate VLAN and runs via squid, as well as being rooted. 95% of packets out from it are dropped. That said, good luck finding something better. Most smart TVs run Android garbage that gets progressively worse as updates fome out, and no dumb TVs (in my country) have the feature set of the big boys. I can't find anything better than LG, even with the absurd lengths I have to go to make it suit my needs.

by mafuyu 4y ago

metadat 4y ago

I wrote a recommendation about this 7 months ago (oh my, how time flies): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31707222 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31707222 tl;dr: If the TV is working well enough already, it may be ill-advised to connect it to the network. The apps, while convenient, can be supplanted by an external AppleTV or similar for minimal cost relative to a nice TV. This protects the TV not only from being a privacy threat and general ad-ridden nuisance, but also from receiving potentially harmful updates that can lead to performance regressions.

ErikCorry 4y ago
Offline TV plus online Chromecast works fine for me.
kapep 4y ago
That just seems to shift all concerns from one device to another. Is AppleTV or similar devices so much better when it comes to privacy? Or is the selling point just that they don't show ads?

gurchik 4y ago

> Pi-hole also has a nice interface for pointing `.local` domains to local IP addresses, which is much easier than messing with dnsmasq settings on the EdgeRouter. This is why I have Pi-hole set up as well. I wanted to have custom DNS records so I can resolve multiple named services to the single IP they're hosted on. With my Ubiquiti Security Gateway you have to do this by SSHing in and modifying the dnsmasq settings. It's much easier for me to manage this on Pi-hole. The DNS request metrics and blocking are just a bonus for me.

laurencei 4y ago

I love my LG TVs. The problem is, for anyone who wants a smart TV, every brand is just as bad. Samsung, Sony etc. I know some people say "get a dumb TV" and use chromecast etc - but I just want an all in one integration etc.

mafuyu 4y ago
I've heard that the high end Sony Bravia TVs are better in this regard, but haven't confirmed it myself. They are quite a bit more expensive than the other OLED TVs on the market, however. One thing I've been feeling lately with internet-connected home devices is that I'm being pushed towards products from big tech companies like Google. Google might mine my data still, but at least they'll ostensibly do it competently and securely. Not a great feeling. Despite not really being in the Google ecosystem, maybe my next TV will be one with Android TV support. On the smart home side, I did get into self-hosting Home Assistant recently. I didn't expect much from it at first, but it's remarkable how liberating and useful it feels compared to the one-size-fits-all approach of Google Home or HomeKit. I'm actually excited to try and get some more smart home devices now, beyond just a few lightbulbs.
- Garrrrrr 4y ago
  Anon gathered around and hacked Sony back in 2011 (mainly) because of the absorbent information they were gathering from everyone's PlayStation 3 consoles. They never stopped gathering an obscene amount of information from their users, and nether did any other mid-major technology company. Google knows everything about you/us if you use their services. It's really bad, we know. For some of us that's inescapable because of our careers/jobs, or if we use Google search on our own devices on our networks compared to alternative platforms. Even your smart lightbulbs are gathering data on you. Android (AND Android TV) is Google: > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/android-sends-20x-more-data-to-google-than-ios-sends-to-apple-study-says/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/android-sends-20x-mo...
  - aeonik 4y ago
    Exorbitant fits better than absorbent, but it's still an interesting use of absorbent. Something like "Absorbent nature they have for information" if you still want to use absorbent.

kxrm 4y ago

Just be aware that some apps will bypass the local net DNS settings and hard code Google DNS or a third party DNS. I have a firewall rule in my router that redirects those queries to my pi-hole.

tomschlick 4y ago
Now they are starting to use Dns over Https to get around those restrictions. Super scummy
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  I have no idea how people are going to defeat DNS over HTTPS, as it seems to mean (and please correct me if I am wrong) that allowing this thing on my network, well, I will just never be able to know what it is doing or to whom it is talking.
  - ignoramous 4y ago
    I happen to develop an open source, no-root, network monitor, and firewall for Android. We let users block connections to IPs that have no corresponding DNS request. Of course, genuine reasons to connect directly to IPs exist, but not so much for installed apps.
    - sureglymop 4y ago
      What's the name of your tool/app?
      - ignoramous 4y ago
        https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app
        sureglymop 4y ago
        Really cool! Thanks for sharing.

KerrAvon 4y ago

I have a PiHole, but I also disable networking on any TV in the house and use an AppleTV instead of the native TV apps. LG and Samsung will eventually route around ad blockers by bypassing DNS altogether.

powvans 4y ago
Eventually they’ll just route around this by connecting to your neighbor’s Ring doorbell or your Nest thermostat or whatever random internet connected thing that it can reach out and pass packets through.
- password4321 4y ago
  Amazon Sidewalk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27182822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27182822 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27115809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27115809 Apple FindMy Network https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27130355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27130355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26877484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26877484
- satori99 4y ago
  ...or just put a cellular modem on the BOM, and have the advertisers pay for it.
  - derwiki 4y ago
    Bingo. Don’t many new cars do this?
    - ProllyInfamous 4y ago
      This is what scared me most when Volvo switched their infotainment over to Google products (and a contributing reason why I chose not to purchase a new XC60 Recharge).
- harshalizee 4y ago
  Most likely they will start coming with their own cellular network capabilities built in, bypassing any need for a network connection. They would also be able to screen capture and analyze whatever you watch, even on external devices like apple tv and inject ads directly as an overlay. The thought just sickens me.

thrwawy74 4y ago

I emailed the LG CEO and some of the executive board and said (in colorful language) that the only reason I bought this TV was because the quality was unmatched. For the moment LG is the only vendor where I can get an OLED TV like this. But as soon as there are competitors I will remember never to buy LG again for the terrible ad and tv menu experience. I also said how annoying it was that you commit to a particular smart assistant (google or alexa), and the TV will nag you to set up Alexa. I made my choice leave me alone. The analogy is Tesla is the only one making good electric cars. When there's competition, I will never buy Tesla because of the shitty experience. Also for >$1k it should let you use the TV as an HDMI multiviewer. It has 4 HDMI ports on the back, let me view plug in my personal laptop on the port 1, work laptop on port 2, and divide the screen to give each laptop a "2nd monitor". Or even 2 monitors each.

smolyeet 4y ago
I just wish TVs were just the panel without all the smart features. I only use the Apple TV anyways.
- miah_ 4y ago
  Google Dumb TV, there are still plenty of vendors selling them. They are frequently seen in Airports..
  - djbusby 4y ago
    Alibaba has them. I'm running a Scepter 2018 model, just cause it's dumb. Smart devices, dumb display.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > They are frequently seen in Airports.. You mean for advertising, showing timetables, etc? Those are usually "digital signage" panels. Colors may or may not be OK on those, but there are two things to keep in mind: 1. They are outrageously expensive because they're made to be run blindingly bright 24/7. 2. They are less and less dumb, complete with ridiculously long startup times. The company I work for uses these. And while a few years ago only the higher-priced ones used to feature "smart" features, the "cheaper" ones now have them, too. Now, in our case, we like those because it allows us to control the screens from a central location, and they don't require setting up a Raspberry Pi or similar to show content on them. But "dumb" they are not anymore. They're typically running some form of Android or Samsung's Tizen. I don't directly use them, so I don't know the details, but a quick glance at Samsung's website seems to show that consumer models use Tizen, too.

nunez 4y ago

we just got a super shiny brand new samsung s95b that's oled and really nice but it will never see the light of day on the Internet precisely because of this bullshit.

amatecha 4y ago
yeah, it's super frustrating how they try so hard to get you to enter your wifi credentials, too.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago

"It's mind blowing to me that this is the user experience on a TV that costs over $1k." Perhaps this will put to rest the idea that internet-based tracking and advertising are necessary for products and services to be "free" and paying for these products and services is a way to "remove the ads". Even paying a high premium to a company that privacy washes^1 its products will not stop the data collection and advertising. Some companies can survive without using the internet to violate privacy for profit. Anyone born before 1993 knows this is true. Certainly a company like LG could survive, however "tech" companies cannot.^2 Conducting commercial surveillance on internet users is too easy. It's like money on the table. There is still inadequate regulation to slow it down, let alone stop it. Companies that connect their products to the internet can cash in on "tech" company intermediary-style surveillance. Welcome to the "Internet of Things". Being able to control DNS in the home is essential, IMHO. Hopefully Pi-Hole users are not pointing dnsmasq at shared caches run by entities engaged in data collection for commercial purposes and internet advertising services, whether those are ISPs or Google or similar. 1. https://www.context.news/surveillance/opinion/user-beware-privacy-washing-online-is-real https://www.context.news/surveillance/opinion/user-beware-pr... https://dt.gl/privacy-washing-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/ https://dt.gl/privacy-washing-do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do/ https://dataethics.eu/privacy-washing/ https://dataethics.eu/privacy-washing/ https://medium.com/discernible/communicators-steer-clear-of-privacy-washing-a3b19e1a3efd https://medium.com/discernible/communicators-steer-clear-of-... https://getsession.org/blog/privacy-washing https://getsession.org/blog/privacy-washing 2. The now classic "tech" company meme is that the internet, what other folks would call the web, would not exist without advertising. Yet it did exist before advertising was permitted, so that cannot be true. It still worked and no one using it wanted to see advertising. The person who put the first ad on the internet was globally lambasted.^3 Citing this historical fact does not imply anyone wants to go back in time to the early internet. It just means that the "tech" company meme that the internet does not work without advertising, without "tech" company intermediaries conducting extensive surveillance on every internet user to support this advertising, is pure BS. "Tech" companies try to use FUD something like, "If anyone changes anything that interferes with advertising, then the internet and therefore life itself will suck." Yeah, right. As if "tech" companies are the only sources of vision for the future. They want a future that continues to let them profit obscenely from using the internet for unregulated data collection and advertising. 3. https://web.archive.org/web/20080919130455/http://www.l-ware.com/ny_times_q__a__october_16_1994.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20080919130455/http://www.l-ware...

gambiting 4y ago

I've got an LG CX TV and I haven't seen any ads anywhere - which models are affected by this, do you know?

mafuyu 4y ago
I've got the LG G1. AFAIK, all the webOS models are affected.
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Which country? Never seen this behaviour, so maybe it is region specific
  - mafuyu 4y ago
    This is in the US. If you search online, it seems to be a commonly reported issue, with some articles saying LG started ramping up the ads a year or two ago. Maybe older firmwares don't get the ads?
    - gambiting 4y ago
      I'm literally on the very latest firmware on my LG CX, connected to the internet, use the apps all the time and I have zero ads on mine, never did anything to block them either - I'm in the UK. I wonder if that's actually some kind of EU/UK regulation that's absent in the US that's preventing this.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Mine started about a year after I bought the TV with no updates done (and the TV rooted, blocking updates) in AU.
blue_cookeh 4y ago
Maybe it depends on the country? I've got a LG C9 and can't recall _ever_ getting any ads in webOS since buying it. In fact, the most annoying thing is the Rakuten button I never use on the "smart" remote. I've overall been very happy with our LG TV and have been recommending it highly over our old Samsung - which was slowly updated to remove features and eventually took about 45 seconds to boot up.

labster 4y ago

Wait, you want a telescreen that doesn’t watch you back? Citizen, this is ungood crimethink. Plusungood crimethink! Thankfully, it’s almost unpossible to buy a telescreen without telemetry (and always has been), so Big Brother will know what you are doing. But you should still stop by the local MiniLuv for reeducation, just in case.

mcbits 4y ago
> Thankfully, it’s almost unpossible to buy a telescreen without telemetry (and always has been) Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I recall being able t&%@^0158 NNNNNNNN@*^& NO CARRIER
- newsclues 4y ago
  You can get the same panels as business signage displays (often) but you pay more for less features. It should be illegal to make money selling a TV and data mining people without their informed consent.
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    You could simplify that to "illegal to datamine without informed consent" or even "illegal to datamine".
    - ianai 4y ago
      Probably all it would take is defining peoples private property to include their personal information and “generated data” or something. Might even be something a suitable legal eagle could win in a lawsuit.
- nsb1 4y ago
  "MOM! HANG UP THE PHONE!"

bitwise101 4y ago

Would you mind sharing the domains you blacklisted? Edit: found this on GitHub https://gist.github.com/wassname/78eeaaad299dc4cddd04e372f20a9aa7 https://gist.github.com/wassname/78eeaaad299dc4cddd04e372f20...

mafuyu 4y ago
Here are the blacklist domains I've accrued (some rules might be redundant or out of date): ngfts.lge.com us.ad.lgsmartad.com lgad.cjpowercast.com us.info.lgsmartad.com aic.recommend.lgtvcommon.com aic.homeprv.lgtvcommon.com aid.rdl.lgtvcommon.com aic.lgshopsvc.lgappstv.com ^aic.*lg.* us.emp.lgsmartplatform.com snu.lge.com us.lgrecommends.lgappstv.com api.thetake.com us.lgtvsdp.com aic.service.lgtvcommon.com lgtvonline.lge.com (\.|^)gracenote\.com$ (\.|^)prehook\.com$ raw.vidyard.com (\.|^)vidyard\.com$ (\.|^)wistia\.com$
DavideNL 4y ago
There's a specific list for it: https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/ https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/ It's listed on https://firebog.net/ https://firebog.net/

alex_young 4y ago

Just don’t give it your wifi info. Put a box you control on it and make it a dumb tv again.

amelius 4y ago
They probably have a deal with your cable company that provides your router.
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  Why would your wifi be served from a box provided by your ISP? That's a bad idea.
toastal 4y ago
There's been cases where TVs sent data signals back to the cable boxes over coax. There's now high-frequency, outside-human-hearing ID triggers the that are released into the air and ‘heard’ by smart phones with proprietary apps installed with trackers and too many permissions allowed. They can even send out signals via gyroscopes.

6ak74rfy 4y ago

I bought an LG OLED TV couple of months ago during the Cyber Monday sale. > but the TV was absolutely packed with ads via the home screen and pop-up toasts. To add insult to injury, the home screen would lag for several seconds at boot while it pulled down all those ads. I was shocked to read this. I've been running AdGuard Home for awhile now and had no idea that my TV was capable of showing me so many ads. Even my spouse breathed a sigh of relief (and possibly admired my setup just a little!) when I read her these lines.

sgtnoodle 4y ago
I got an LG C2 and immediately plugged a Roku into it. I've spent less than 5 minutes total looking at WebOS. I also have OpenWRT's ad block setup enabled on my router. If there are ads on its home screen, I am blind to them.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  You may as well get a RokuTV and avoid the remote juggling for volume control.
  - jaguar1878 4y ago
    We use a Roku with an LG OLED, mostly to avoid connecting the TV to the internet. Turns out if you use the HDMI ARC for audio (we connected to a soundbar) and everything in the chain is new enough, then the Roku remote volume buttons will adjust the soundbar volume just fine. Roku remote can also turn the TV on and off, so we don't need the LG remote now except to change to a different input.
  - sgtnoodle 4y ago
    Are there any Roku TVs with EVO OLED panels? The Roku remote controls TV power and soundbar volume just fine. CEC didn't seem to work quite right, so I enabled the Roku's IR blaster feature. The LG remote can control the Roku as well, through CEC.

BrandoElFollito 4y ago

(#inlcude my typical rant about why in the US the consumers are not better protected against such ads, this is completely illegal in Europe) I used to have an EdgeRouter which was a huge improvement to the ISP-provided crappy box but ultimately the configuration was so complicated and inconsistent that I switched to a small fanless debian box. I put Pi-Hole there, which also covered DHCP and DNS services (synchronized together). It has been a blast and I have more confidence that I will understand what is happening (vs the ER magic)

kmlx 4y ago

> but the TV was absolutely packed with ads via the home screen and pop-up toasts i also have an oled tv from lg and haven’t seen any ads on the home screen but did get 1-2 pop-ups about a year ago. but that’s about it. it’s a 4 year old model, running a webos version that can’t be updated to the latest one. i also bought it in europe. does anyone know if what the poster describes happens based on continent/country, or webos version? it seems so strange to have such a great panel, pretty much the best OS, and relatively high prices just to spoil it all with ads worth pennies.

oktoberpaard 4y ago
Same experience here from another European user. I've only accepted the bare minimum to be able to use and update the TV and its apps. I haven't seen any ads ever, or not that I can remember anyway. Not even recommendations for TV shows and the likes. It's an LG C9 with an older version of webOS. I do see in the DNS logs that the TV and some of the apps connect to analytics domains.

hnlmorg 4y ago

I used to swear by LG TVs because their smart features used to be one or the few on t he market that wasn’t intrusive. I even have a bunch of friends who have bought LG TVs based on my recommendations. But the one I bought a couple of weeks ago had the same issues you described and it has left a really sour taste in my mouth too. As an aside, can you share the additional domains you added to PiHole please.

mafuyu 4y ago
Yeah, it's a real bummer. I posted my list in a sibling comment chain. Looks like others have also posted links to blocklists for smart TVs as well.

cyri 4y ago

I also have a pihole in my network and it blocks 30% of all requests. But for TV I use a NEC MultiSync ME501 50“. A dump display. Use it my home gym for Zwift and workout displays.

nickpp 4y ago

Strange, I have a couple of C9 LG OLED a few years old connected to WiFi and up to date and I never saw any ads nor popups. I am using them sparingly though, and I live in EU, if that makes any difference.

austinjp 4y ago

For those in the UK looking for a dumb TV, I recently bought a Veltech VE40FO01UK for £180. With a Freeview box and Chromecast, it's all I need. It would make me furious to find ads in software that I've already paid for. Hopefully when I need to replace this TV there will still be options.

teekert 4y ago
It is in the EU.

mihaaly 4y ago

Luckily I came accross knowing this abysmal insult from the greedy and user hostile TV manufacturers and avoided LG in the first place. They are banned in my household for life. But in second place thought to go for a huge PC monitor (for me it is 43", enough in this household) and AppleTV (which is ok so far concerning ads ... so far) which eventually turned into a Sony instead disconnected from netwoks completely (I simply like the Sony's screen features, build style and hardware quality). But in the very first place I kept my old TV as long as it was physicly possible. I will not feed this dishonest bullying of intrusive schemers. Pi-hole seems a more elaborate and powerful approach though.

pmontra 4y ago

I'm watching TV right now while having lunch. I'm watching it on a tablet, with VLC, started by TVH Client, which is a client for TVHeadend, running on a Raspberry with a TV hat. I'm also using that tablet to type this message because VLC has a popup player. I can use the tablet to run every app I could run on a smart TV. I also own a 32" LG TV which I almost never use because carrying the tablet with me around my house is much more convenient thn sitting in front of the TV. I block ads with Blockada and I don't have ads in YouTube because I use NewPipe.

SympleScience 4y ago

> it was making DNS queries for _several_ data mining services that analyze what's being shown on the TV. What? I don't believe you. Are you saying if you are using it as a PC monitor it would effectively send data back about apps you're using, games you're playing, etc? this would have incredible privacy violation implications.

breakingcups 4y ago
You better believe it: https://theviewpoint.com/insights/blog/automatic-content-recognition-acr-whys-and-hows/ https://theviewpoint.com/insights/blog/automatic-content-rec...

TheHappyOddish 4y ago

Do that pcap, it's doing _a lot_. Mine's on a seperate VLAN and runs via squid, as well as being rooted. 95% of packets out from it are dropped. That said, good luck finding something better. Most smart TVs run Android garbage that gets progressively worse as updates fome out, and no dumb TVs (in my country) have the feature set of the big boys. I can't find anything better than LG, even with the absurd lengths I have to go to make it suit my needs.