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As an outsider to the tech industry, it seems to me that the Product Manager/Product Owner role seems to be not only the most BS role, but also the most damagin

As an outsider to the tech industry, it seems to me that the Product Manager/Product Owner role seems to be not only the most BS role, but also the most damaging role? Considering that I saw a post a few weeks back, I saw a similar post (I think on HN itself) where PMs were being fired en masse, I wonder if there is any real utility with the product team, or if it's just a holdover from Google doing its thing back in the days that everyone decided to copy.

pixiemaster 4y ago
I wouldn‘t agree with the BS label, as a good PM/PO can really help along. but with that kind of role, contribution quality is rarely assed correctly, and at the same time, the sandwhich role between contributors, management, and customers, combined with a usually communication-savvy skillset can be extremely dangerous. even worse in impact than a highly visible „bad“ EVP/SVP.
- willio58 4y ago
  This. I've had micromanager PMs that made my life hell and I've had PMs that advocate for me to others. It's all about hiring the right people and healthy company culture.
skrtskrt 4y ago
You need both good PMs and an organization that is set up to utilize PMs well.
vasco 4y ago
I good PM does great things if they are very busy across teams and don't have time to hassle people about shenanigans and instead talk to users and understand the product deeply. Many places though have too many PMs that never talk to users and pretend like they know what they want.
ZephyrBlu 4y ago
PMs tend to have a lot of leverage, so a bad one makes a very large negative impact. A good PM is worth their weight in gold though. I think of them as basically glue. They just help make shit get done. That could be helping co-ordinate between eng and design, doing customer research, managing expectations, etc. Whole range of things that different PMs do.
HatchedLake721 4y ago
Of course there is. If not for the PM, who will speak with the customers, gather, analyze and understand their needs and problems? There should be a person that drives the product in the right direction based on customer conversations. In the early stages founder is the product owner. But as the company grows, the role of the founder/CEO changes. You now build the people, and people build the business. Engineers or CEOs building features no one asked for is IMHO one of the major reasons lots of tech startups fail. Awesome idea, cool product, but no one asked for that feature you were building for 2 months. (guilty here myself)
- LambdaComplex 4y ago
  > If not for the PM, who will speak with the customers, gather, analyze and understand their needs and problems? The engineers? i.e. the people who will actually be fixing those problems? > Engineers or CEOs building features no one asked for is IMHO one of the major reasons lots of tech startups fail. So why put another layer (the PM) in between the engineers and the customers? Sounds like an unnecessary game of telephone to me.
  - fullstackchris 4y ago
    Yes, I continually dislike why engineers are so discounted in terms of parsing customer problems... we build the damn things, we also happen to know how to use the mobile apps, web apps, and desktop apps we build. I'm likely heavily biased and bitter at this point, but I've yet to work with a good "product manager" - and I still don't know what a good one would look like or do.
    - georgeecollins 4y ago
      Sounds like you should work for a company that has only engineers and no PMs or middle managers. Maybe someone on HN can suggest a good one?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 4y ago
grepLeigh 4y ago
The PM role gets described as the "CEO of <product area>" which I think translates to people thinking the role is ultra high status. The best PMs I know operate like CEOs in the sense that it's someone's job to scrub the toilets, and until you figure out how to afford/hire someone to do that for you ... you're scrubbing the toilets yourself. Someone has too! The 0% interest free capital environment distorted the PM role though, especially in land grab cultures. Imagine having enough budget to hire a 4-6 person squad of toilet scrubbers (and golden toilet) so why ever clean it yourself? So sorry for the crappy metaphor, but that's why I believe PMs are on the chopping block right now. Not because there's something intrinsically not-valuable about the role. From the perspective of Tech Lead / Staff Eng in a Big Tech Co, good PMs created clarity and helped my team(s) execute. The worst PMs created ambiguity, and the worst of the worst pushed ambiguity+responsibility down as far as they could.
gnutrino 4y ago
I’ve worked with a few good product managers. I always equate PM to project manager which is totally different and typically useless in software development. The most useless BS role is when companies hire for scrum master.
throw1234651234 4y ago
You are thinking of scrum master, who can make up to 50% more than POs/BAs. Let me summarize: 1. "Hey, I am picking up my kid from preschool, so cover (my only 15 minute meeting of the day)". This is a mandatory future present in 80% of scrum masters. 2. Team, good job, I am so proud of what you have accomplished - I, for one, am always looking for the approval of a random person who has little to do with the team. 3. "Well, what do YOU think we should do"? "Thank you for your input! Let's remove those blockers. Go ahead and reach out to whoever the relevant person is!" 4. Key knowledge required: Daily standup, retro, planning meeting run by dev. Did I miss anything?

pixiemaster 4y ago

I wouldn‘t agree with the BS label, as a good PM/PO can really help along. but with that kind of role, contribution quality is rarely assed correctly, and at the same time, the sandwhich role between contributors, management, and customers, combined with a usually communication-savvy skillset can be extremely dangerous. even worse in impact than a highly visible „bad“ EVP/SVP.

willio58 4y ago
This. I've had micromanager PMs that made my life hell and I've had PMs that advocate for me to others. It's all about hiring the right people and healthy company culture.

skrtskrt 4y ago

You need both good PMs and an organization that is set up to utilize PMs well.

vasco 4y ago

I good PM does great things if they are very busy across teams and don't have time to hassle people about shenanigans and instead talk to users and understand the product deeply. Many places though have too many PMs that never talk to users and pretend like they know what they want.

ZephyrBlu 4y ago

PMs tend to have a lot of leverage, so a bad one makes a very large negative impact. A good PM is worth their weight in gold though. I think of them as basically glue. They just help make shit get done. That could be helping co-ordinate between eng and design, doing customer research, managing expectations, etc. Whole range of things that different PMs do.

HatchedLake721 4y ago

Of course there is. If not for the PM, who will speak with the customers, gather, analyze and understand their needs and problems? There should be a person that drives the product in the right direction based on customer conversations. In the early stages founder is the product owner. But as the company grows, the role of the founder/CEO changes. You now build the people, and people build the business. Engineers or CEOs building features no one asked for is IMHO one of the major reasons lots of tech startups fail. Awesome idea, cool product, but no one asked for that feature you were building for 2 months. (guilty here myself)

LambdaComplex 4y ago
> If not for the PM, who will speak with the customers, gather, analyze and understand their needs and problems? The engineers? i.e. the people who will actually be fixing those problems? > Engineers or CEOs building features no one asked for is IMHO one of the major reasons lots of tech startups fail. So why put another layer (the PM) in between the engineers and the customers? Sounds like an unnecessary game of telephone to me.
- fullstackchris 4y ago
  Yes, I continually dislike why engineers are so discounted in terms of parsing customer problems... we build the damn things, we also happen to know how to use the mobile apps, web apps, and desktop apps we build. I'm likely heavily biased and bitter at this point, but I've yet to work with a good "product manager" - and I still don't know what a good one would look like or do.
  - georgeecollins 4y ago
    Sounds like you should work for a company that has only engineers and no PMs or middle managers. Maybe someone on HN can suggest a good one?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 4y ago

grepLeigh 4y ago

The PM role gets described as the "CEO of <product area>" which I think translates to people thinking the role is ultra high status. The best PMs I know operate like CEOs in the sense that it's someone's job to scrub the toilets, and until you figure out how to afford/hire someone to do that for you ... you're scrubbing the toilets yourself. Someone has too! The 0% interest free capital environment distorted the PM role though, especially in land grab cultures. Imagine having enough budget to hire a 4-6 person squad of toilet scrubbers (and golden toilet) so why ever clean it yourself? So sorry for the crappy metaphor, but that's why I believe PMs are on the chopping block right now. Not because there's something intrinsically not-valuable about the role. From the perspective of Tech Lead / Staff Eng in a Big Tech Co, good PMs created clarity and helped my team(s) execute. The worst PMs created ambiguity, and the worst of the worst pushed ambiguity+responsibility down as far as they could.

gnutrino 4y ago

I’ve worked with a few good product managers. I always equate PM to project manager which is totally different and typically useless in software development. The most useless BS role is when companies hire for scrum master.

throw1234651234 4y ago

You are thinking of scrum master, who can make up to 50% more than POs/BAs. Let me summarize: 1. "Hey, I am picking up my kid from preschool, so cover (my only 15 minute meeting of the day)". This is a mandatory future present in 80% of scrum masters. 2. Team, good job, I am so proud of what you have accomplished - I, for one, am always looking for the approval of a random person who has little to do with the team. 3. "Well, what do YOU think we should do"? "Thank you for your input! Let's remove those blockers. Go ahead and reach out to whoever the relevant person is!" 4. Key knowledge required: Daily standup, retro, planning meeting run by dev. Did I miss anything?