7 ms·
Microsoft is giving US employees unlimited paid time off, ditching 4-week policy
- herpderperator 4y agohttps://archive.is/UdrgC https://archive.is/UdrgC
- luckylion 4y agoI dislike the wording. Clearly it's not 'unlimited', if you stay away for a year or four, they'll kick you out. It's 'unlimited' in the way that some 'flat rates' come with strings attached that make them very much not a flat rate because they'll just cut of the service if you cross some threshold. Since Microsoft is a commercial entity, my assumption is that they've studied the policy's effects and found that many people will take fewer than 4 weeks if you ask them to "take whatever you need and what you feel is fair", so employees will feel that they've gotten a generous gift while Microsoft will make more profits.
- quantified 4y agoAnd they don't need to pay out unused time at end of employment.
- barbazoo 4y agoSo as long as they take more than 4 weeks on top of the annual 4 weeks a year over their whole employment, they'll end up better off, even if their last day that year was Dec 31.
- tracker1 4y agoWhen a company I previously worked at went "unlimited vacation" and effectively tossed all accrued vacation time, a coworker started taking literally every Friday off as PTO to make up for the vacation time that was dumped. Having a 4-day 32hr week might be better than vacation in some ways.
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 4y agoAnd yet, people don't tend to do that because they fear being stack-ranked by their number of days off. I mean don't get me wrong, if my employer were to go unlimited PTO, I would absolutely use it to the max I could (perhaps take Fridays off in addition to a month long vacation each year), but I'm also sure that I would get fired for it.
- user-extended 4y agoIn the case of situations like those, do contracts with unlimited PTO have a clause with "you cannot fire X employee for being too much on vacation"? Speaking from a place of complete and utter ignorance.
- oxfordmale 4y agoMost of these contracts will have a clause requiring approval of holiday request by your manager.
- user-extended 4y agoOk, that makes sense. So it's not Unlimited PTO "at will", it's "discretionary PTO according to your negotiation skills with your manager".
- oxfordmale 4y agoGenerally the manager's hands are tied to by monthly HR reports. Any employee taking an excessive amount of holidays will be flagged up and the manager will have to justify such decisions.
- renewedrebecca 4y agoDo US-based Microsoft employees even have employment contracts? Washington is an 'at will' employment state.
- user-extended 4y agoThe concept of at will employment baffles me as a European, especially since healthcare is also tied up into it. Good point, I forgot that was a thing at all.
- Der_Einzige 4y agoAll states except sort of Montana are "at Will". Wish this term would die since it's basically meaningless when nearly all of the country has it
- peatmoss 4y agoI've seen cynical takes on unlimited PTO, where in practice nobody took time off for fear of falling behind. Then I've seen organizations that really tried to instill a value around taking time off regularly. BUT, at the margins, at a relatively non-cynical company I was aware of one person who did their job well, but took more PTO than some vague sense of what was "reasonable" and this person was indeed penalized, despite there being no apparent mark on their performance. I wonder why there isn't a move to offer a relatively generous PTO packages, say 6 weeks, with the option to receive up to half back as a bonus cash payment if they elected to not take all 6 weeks. That way you establish a sane baseline, but allow people who need R&R to take it without fear of reprisal.
- j33zusjuice 4y agoBecause companies don’t actually give a shit about employee happiness? That’s my guess. I’m not saying this angrily, either. It’s business, all decisions are a means to an end. I really like the idea, though. I would love to get an extra paycheck at the end of the year.
- peatmoss 4y agoI think every company likes not having the liability of PTO hanging on the balance books, and most companies quietly enjoy the reduction in average PTO taken. For the outlier users of PTO, they'd better be firebreathers, or I suspect they are PIPed out. BUT, we were in a somewhat competitive labor market up until very recently, and likely will be again some day. A generous PTO policy grounded in explicit policy would absolutely be something I'd weigh heavily in a competitive market for labor.
- tracker1 4y agoSimilarly, I know people who don't take their owed vacation and build up to the "max" and wind up having to take several weeks off at a time or lose it. In a job without accrued vacation, they simply don't even earn it in the first place, and don't get paid out for it if they are let go. Cynical me thinks this is a precursor to layoffs in order to get the debt off the books and not pay out anyone that gets "downsized" in the end.
- GVIrish 4y agoTo be fair, in the internal email they described it as 'discretionary pto'.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- farnsworth 4y agoUnlimited PTO is a scam
- macinjosh 4y agoIndeed, anytime you are promised an unlimited amount of a limited resource it is clearly a lie.
- mc32 4y agoIf they actually meant it, they would call it "infinite PTO". I wish I were just starting out; to get hired at one of these places and immediately take unlimited PTO just as an experiment and see how far it could go.
- HomeDeLaPot 4y agoYep, "unlimited vacation" sounds nice the first time you hear it. Until you realize that it doesn't mean you can take 8 weeks/yr of vacation, it just means that how much vacation you get is no longer clearly defined and you have to work it out with your manager. And also, the company no longer has to pay you for vacation you don't take.
- cyanydeez 4y agoRight, it's a reduction in benefits. And I'm no accountant but I'm pretty sure since vacation time used to be guaranteed, it had to be carried as a liability and this change means debt relief. As such, I reminded my employer multiple times during our annual review that they reduced my compensation.
- xt00 4y agoA good way to fix this and relieve the stress for the employees but get the PTO debt burden thing off the books is to just call it RTO.. recommended time off.. pick a number and say “while PTO is unlimited we have a recommended number that we hope most employees will target.. our RTO is 4 weeks for employees less than 4 years and 6 weeks for employees after 4 years.. again this is flexible, but this is our recommendation”
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 4y agoThe fix is just to have accrued PTO. That way employees know how much they are allowed to take and if they get laid off or business needs prevent them from being able to use it, they get a payout.
- tracker1 4y agoExactly true on the latter part. The main reason for "unlimited" vacation is to remove the debt load from the books. Vacation accrued and unpaid is debt that is owed out, and owed if they terminate someone. Not sure how this might affect any downsizing in the near term for existing "earned" vacation time.
- aliqot 4y ago
- oxfordmale 4y agoUnlimited time off is only good for the employer. They don't have to pay outstanding holidays if you leave or get made redundant. And unlimited doesn't mean unlimited. I far prefer a policy that dictates a minimum number of days that need to be taken off each year, and gives the flexibility to buy or sell holidays on top of that.
- thrashh 4y agoI’m going to go against the grain and say I love unlimited PTO. Gone are the days when I’m counting my PTO and I can just take trips or time off whenever I feel like it. I’d like to say that I’m a contributing member of my team and I have a good rapport with my manager so I’m never worried he’s going to reject my request.
- barbazoo 4y agoI see it that way to. I'm sure what people describe is true in some cases but I'm also sure that there's tons of more positive examples. Especially when the employee is, as you said, productive and reasonable. If you get fired for taking 8 weeks vacation then something has gone wrong waaay before that and something about the manager/employee relationship is off.
- sgarland 4y agoSame. I don't have to count days, or worry that I'll need my time later in the year. If I want a day off, even if it's for no real reason, I take the day off.
- footlose_3815 4y agoDepends if you work for a job that lets you take advantage of it. M$? Fat chance.
- asddubs 4y agoEven if that's the case, it certainly gives them the ability to pull the rug out from under you at any point in time
- mk_stjames 4y agoThe book "Algorithms to Live By" by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths has a small chapter on Nash equilibria in game theory and uses a interesting example involving 'unlimited' PTO in the corporate world: All employees want, in theory, to take as much vacation as possible. But they also all want to take just slightly less vacation than each other, to be perceived as more loyal, more committed, and more dedicated (hence more promotion-worthy). Everyone looks to the others for a baseline, and will take just slightly less than that. The Nash equilibrium of this game is zero.
- cyanydeez 4y agoMmm . Sounds like useless economic theory. I'd more so suggest the approval process of unlimited vacation relies more thoroughly on favoritism and how much time put in is determined entirely by the feedback management gives to individuals. I'd posit very few implementations are employee driven.
- mc32 4y agoThis is pretty much what happens in Japan --but without the need for a pretense of "unlimited vacation".
- tayo42 4y agoI've worked in some toxic places but nothing that toxic. Time off has never come up in promotion discussions. I don't think people are really counting. I can barely remember last year, you think my manager remembers enough about other people to pit them against each other by a couple days of time off?
- freedomben 4y agoWere you part of management? I worked in an unlimited PTO and PTO was never discussed directly with the person, but management discussions often mentioned it, particularly if it was above average. I've often wondered if this was more an exception or more a rule.
- 4y ago
- robswc 4y agoPerhaps a better term for "unlimited time off" should be found. I feel like it anchors the whole thing in a weird territory. It's certainly not unlimited and entirely at the discretion of the manager/decision maker. I know its a small gripe but somehow it always feels so off saying "unlimited time off." * I like the idea behind it. In practice and on paper tho it seems to have mixed results.
- quantum_magpie 4y agoI propose 'Uncertain Time Off'!
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 4y agoGangster PTO: "take off all the time you need, but be careful or that nice job of yours might have an accident"
- xiggle 4y agoWould this be legal to do in other countries that have actual standards for paid annual leave?
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y agowouldn't it be better to say 4 weeks minimum with unlimited maximum? or as usual, American companies innovating in the subversion of workers rights. you can often learn more from what is not said, as opposed to what is.
- throwayyy479087 4y agoNow they just need to have competitive comp with the other big players and they'll be the best place to work. Amazon's PTO policy is honestly pathetic, and Google's isn't much better. Google and Amazon still pay a lot better than MS though.
- mensetmanusman 4y agoSomeone should try to take off 52 weeks.