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Natives in Tech asks Apache Software Foundation to change name
- GiorgioG 4y agoWho is going to touch this discussion with a 10 foot pole?
- DonHopkins 4y agoWhy do you need a 10 foot pole to admit they have a point?
- Daishiman 4y agoThey don't really have a point. They have a grievance, and one that matters exactly zero. It is armchair militance at its best; it's raising a loud voice on a topic that will make no difference in the inclusion of minorities in tech. It is a stupid timewaster that undermines real social causes.
- jeremiahlee 4y agoIt would seem to make a difference to the 3 Indigenous software engineers who wrote the article.
- readthenotes1 4y agoIn what way will it improve their, or anyone's, lives to rename the Mississippi to The Big Brown?
- Daishiman 4y agoIt will satisfy the thirst of winning a political fight and nothing else.
- DonHopkins 4y agoOf all the people in this discussion, you seem to be the most thirsty to win a political fight, with all of your demeaning and ranting "ridiculous, useless and unnecessary" posts, to quote your own insulting words. Are you done ridiculing and dismissing people yet, or are you still thirsty for more fighting and nothing else?
- Ancapistani 4y agoAh, that's part of the root of this issue - we don't know based on the facts in evidence if this is a widespread concern or not. We only know that it's a concern to those three people. As you can see, there are more than three people in this thread alone who feel strongly in the opposite. It seems to me the right things to do would be for the ASF to reach out to some Apache organizations to ask their thoughts, and for the article authors to approach (or create, if necessary) similar representative groups to make a formal statement of position.
- subsistence234 4y agoWell, it's easy money. Whether they actually care... who knows? What does the vast majority of Native Americans (ca three million people), or specifically the members of Apache tribes, think?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bitwize 4y agoGood. It's time for this to happen.
- oxfordmale 4y agoCan you explain why?
- giraffe_lady 4y agoThe statement in the article is a strong and detailed explanation of why.
- bfgoodrich 4y ago[dead]
- oxfordmale 4y agoJava and JavaScript are just a few technology names that can be perceived as cultural appropriation (Javanese culture from the island of Java, Indonesia) Mazda is a car manufacturer, however, it also the name of a god. Pick any technology name and it will have a double meaning in a language or region in the world. Where do we stop? It would be more meaningful if the Apache foundation included a link on the homepage explaining the origin of its name and an make an annual contribution to a relevant charity.
- giraffe_lady 4y agoIf a group with a strong claim to representing one of those names comes forward with a public statement about why it's harmful we can evaluate it. We don't need to create a perfectly generalizable framework to address a specific concrete request.
- oxfordmale 4y agoAre you aware of the origin of the word Apache ? Their name comes from a Zuni word meaning "enemy". It means the Apache tribes have been culturally appropriating a word from a different tribe as a badge of honour. Or doesn't that count?
- RegnisGnaw 4y agoI really think the overestimated the marketshare of Apache HTTP Server: "and the Apache® HTTP Server, which is used nearly everywhere to proxy requests to incoming servers."
- londons_explore 4y agoI mean... that was true 15 years ago...
- 28304283409234 4y agoRather irrelevant to the question at hand imho.
- RegnisGnaw 4y agoI agree with their requests 100%, but I still find it amusing. It can be both :)
- badhombres 4y agoIt's going to take a little more than a sed statement to make this change
- pmjones 4y agoI first read the title as "naive" technologists.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- seydor 4y ago,
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- recuter 4y agoIstanbul was Constantinople Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
- giraffe_lady 4y agoIn your own statement? Or just by pronouncing kubernetes correctly I think.
- sct202 4y agoThe country formerly called Macedonia, which now has to be called North Macedonia. Edit for context, very long Wikipedia on this dispute between Greece and North Macedonia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
- mc32 4y agoI mean if I were Greek I would rather have appreciation for others’ knowingly or unknowingly helping to spread the idea of Greekness rather than keep greekness to myself and let it wither in provinciality.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gamache 4y agoIt started out as a patchy version of NCSA HTTPD. That's the joke. A patchy webserver. EDIT: I am aware that the name was retconned into a more "sophisticated" origin story, but the original project docs back me up. https://web.archive.org/web/19970415054031/http://www.apache.org/info.html https://web.archive.org/web/19970415054031/http://www.apache... > Why is it called Apache? > The Apache group was formed around a number of people who provided patch files that had been written for NCSA httpd 1.3. The result after combining them was A PAtCHy server.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kemayo 4y agoBrian Behlendorf does say[1] that the origin wasn't that, though apparently the "a patchy" pun was almost-immediately picked up. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name
- rvieira 4y agoI have to admit I always thought "a patchy server" was the name's origin...
- hutzlibu 4y agoFrom the article: One of the founders, Brian Behlendorf, describes how he came about choosing the name Apache in the documentary “Trillions and Trillions Served”: "I suggested the name Apache partly because the web technologies at the time that were launching were being called cyber this or spider that or something on those themes and I was like we need something a little more interesting, a little more romantic, not to be a cultural appropriator or anything like that, I had just seen a documentary about Geronimo and the last days of a Native American tribe called the Apaches, right, who succumbed to the invasion from the West, from the United States, and they were the last tribe to give up their territory and for me that almost romantically represented what I felt we were doing with this web-server project…"
- 4y ago
- yehudalouis 4y agoI'm still not sure I understand the cultural appropriation argument as a whole, including this one.
- mythhouse 4y agopicking parts of a different culture that sound cool to you and use it for your own benefit, to give you some cultural cache. You still think the people who produced this culture are not on par with you. Whites don't think native americans are on par with them so using apache for name is cultural appropriation. corollary, picking up something from white culture like wearing jeans isn't appropriation because whites have established themselves as top dog already. Its pretty simple, really.
- yehudalouis 4y ago> You still think the people who produced this culture are not on par with you. I do think they are on par with me.
- mythhouse 4y agosorry. I was using a generic you, comment wasn't directed at you specifically
- yehudalouis 4y agoNo worries. But I think that points out something of a hole in the argument, no? If the generic `you` is what you intended to mean, isn't that a blanket assumption?
- mythhouse 4y agoSure yea. I think people on receiving end can only think in aggregates and general patterns. Individual opinions are not really relevant. Native americans are the poorest class of people in America so its obvious that the mainstream culture doesn't view them as equals.
- poszlem 4y agoI am sorry, but this is an absolutely insane take that will add a huge amount of work for people for no good reason whatsoever. It's the github master -> main debate all over again. I really hope we are past peak woke now and this won't fly. The amount of hours of work wasted for pointless renaming just has to be accounted somehow.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- DonHopkins 4y agoOh yes, you have a great point, those people are absolutely insane and should be locked up in mental institutions and medicated for not wanting other people to appropriate their name, and the computer industry still hasn't recovered from the destruction and devastation and ruined lives and lost fortunes and hurt feelings from having to rename git branches. /s
- Daishiman 4y agoWay to miss the point.
- DonHopkins 4y agoWay to miss the sarcasm, which I clearly labeled.
- fidgewidge 4y agoYou clearly haven't had the pleasure of wasting half a day here and there due to botched master->main renames, like some of us have. Yes, it was actually net destructive because the actual delivered benefit was zero. Language does not define reality. Reality defines language.
- orra 4y agoEh, companies and organisations regularly rebrand, even if it doesn't always require a name change.
- recuter 4y agoI'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APACHE_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APACHE_II APACHE ("Acute Physiology and Chronic Health Evaluation II")
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- steve_gh 4y agoMore proof (if any were needed) that "Naming things" is one of the two* core computing problems. * Alongside "Cache consistency" and "Off-by-one errors"
- londons_explore 4y agoRenaming things is the classic example of wasted effort. The ROI is nil - both in a monetary sense, but also in a discovery and invention sense. But in this case, there is a "return" - that is lack of confusion of all users between the apache software foundation and the Apache group of tribes. Your stance on this issue will be determined by what you view as the bigger cost: The time taken by everyone who has to deal with a rename of all apache references, vs the loss of value caused by confusion between the group of tribes and the software foundation.
- giraffe_lady 4y agoIt's really limited to think the only values that can inform this decision are the financial ones. I think the value lost to confusion is likely very low, and the cost of renaming quite high. And yet I still think it should be done, because I highly value a group's right to choose the name they are referred to as and to have some control over how that name is used. There's not really a financial representation of that, but I don't think it's inconsistent either.
- kyleee 4y agoIs it possible for the group of Apache people to have a vote on this issue? That would at least help gauge overall community interest
- mc32 4y agoThere are lots of terms that exist in separate realms and we understand the context without much issue at all. Do people get confused by ‘Windows’? Or ‘Desktop’ or ‘Office’.
- nerdponx 4y agoConsider that "not contributing to the de-personification and cultural erasure of indigenous Americans" is inherently a benefit and should be part of the ROI calculation.
- DougN7 4y ago
- LinuxBender 4y agoI am not sure if this is the elephant in the room but might this eventually lead to renaming most of the United States either to a neutral name or back to the names that Native Americans gave them? [1] Many websites also still refer to Native Americans as Indians. Louis C.K. has a bit about that one but I shall refrain from linking to it, because language. I support renaming the states. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_place_names_of_Native_American_origin_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_place_names_of_Native_...
- mc32 4y agoThere is no consensus among first peoples either. Some prefer the term Indian, some prefer other terms. I prefer something besides Indian mostly to avoid confusion between East Indian and West Indian. When East Indians were minuscule in population, it wasn’t an issue but today there are likely more East Indians than North American Indians in North America.
- ThaDood 4y agoThis has led me to calling Indigenous people, North American Indians, Central America Indians, etc.
- nerdponx 4y agoThis has been happening gradually for years and is continuing to spread. Renaming Mount McKinley back to Denali is probably the best known example. It's a good thing. Certainly better than the governor of New York renaming a bridge after his dad (who apparently would have balked if he were still alive) and spending millions on new signage to do it.
- latchkey 4y agoMy favorite ASF project name: https://geronimo.apache.org/ https://geronimo.apache.org/ (Disclosure: i'm an asf member)
- qazpot 4y agoJust leaving this here According to The Apache Software Foundation, its name was chosen "from respect for the various Native American nations collectively referred to as Apache, well-known for their superior skills in warfare strategy and their inexhaustible endurance".[15] This was in a context in which it seemed that the open internet -- based on free exchange of open source code -- appeared to be soon subjected to a kind of conquer by proprietary software vendor Microsoft; Apache co-creator Brian Behlendorf -- originator of the name -- saw his effort somewhat parallel that of Geronimo, Chief of the last of the free Apache peoples.[16][17] But it conceded that the name "also makes a cute pun on 'a patchy web server'—a server made from a series of patches".
- nerdponx 4y agoIt's a sorry form of respect. Imagine if this was called the Irish Software Foundation or the Palestinian Software Foundation or the Xhosa Software Foundation or the Asheknazi Software Foundation. > The Irish Software Foundation was named from respect for the Irish people, well-known for their fighting spirit and perseverance against hundreds of years of adversity. > The Ashkenazi Software Foundation was named from respect for the various Jewish peoples of Europe collectively known as Ashkenazi, well-known for their strong academic traditions. It would be so blatantly idiotic and racist that nobody would ever do it. The name "Apache Software Foundation" sucks, and this is long overdue.
- croes 4y agoWhat about Irish Pubs or every single Pizza shop not operated by an Italian?
- jimlongton 4y ago> Imagine if this was called the Irish Software Foundation or the Palestinian Software Foundation or the Xhosa Software Foundation or the Asheknazi Software Foundation. You mean like the "Fighting Irish" from University of Notre Dame? I'm Irish and I've never heard anyone criticise them. In fact they are welcomed to Ireland for St Patricks day parades.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- dstroot 4y agoI had always heard that the original name for the HTTP server was because it was just “a bunch of patches”. Seems a better name for the foundation is a good thing.
- BeefWellington 4y agoMaking no judgements about this, I would point out that the name Apache, like a lot of names for native American groups were used by the Spanish as they went across that part of the Americas. Various Spanish "explorers" of that era had many different names for the same group, per Wikipedia[1] and its citation[2]. The name Apache was settled on to be the descriptor for the various groups sometime in the late 1890s/early 1900s by the Federal Government. Obviously every discussion of naming winds up being controversial. On one hand, the name wasn't strictly culturally part of their identity until the Spanish came along, and probably not even until 1900s or so. But, the government essentially making it that particular group of people's identity then solidified that and enshrined it. A question I would pose to everyone responding negatively here is this: If it were clearly a profit-motivated company using this name, like, say, Microsoft, Apple, or Google, would it be as obvious that they "shouldn't change their name"? I'm not convinced there's a good answer here but maybe the authors do have a point regarding the Apache Foundation's support of native communities that bear the name they've trademarked and use. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Name [2]: Brugge, David M. (1968). Navajos in the Catholic Church Records of New Mexico 1694 - 1875. Window Rock, Arizona: Research Section, The Navajo Tribe. In a detailed study of New Mexico Catholic Church records, David M. Brugge identifies 15 tribal names which the Spanish used to refer to the Apache. These were drawn from records of about 1000 baptisms from 1704 to 1862.
- dvaun 4y ago@dang Why is this story flagged?
- nathanaldensr 4y agodang doesn't control whether stories are flagged; the HN community--specifically those with a certain karma level--do.
- nerdponx 4y agoI wish we could counter-flag a story. Or maybe some people can, and I don't have enough karma. In any case, the mods can manually un-flag a story that they think has been erroneously flagged.
- meltyness 4y agoHarms claimed: This type of erasure undermines the abilities of Native and non-Native people to work together Romanticizing Indigenous culture [...] is harmful. It categorizes Indigenous people within the bounds of the stereotype [...] Obviously diversity is important and stereotyping is bad, but Apache is just a nation. It's like demonizing using "pangea" or "constantinople" for a street name. Obviously it wouldn't offend me if Apache took action to remediate, but I think the importance of the complaints in this article are overstated. At the risk of being guilty of cultural erasure, maybe it would be in the author's interest to be constructive about amplifying culture rather than destructive. This isn't about pedagogy amplifying some narrow view, it's barely even an homage, it's a positive view of history written hundreds of years ago. If you want to discredit that history, you'll have to be more specific.
- nerdponx 4y agoIt's really easy to argue that other people shouldn't be offended by this, but that's because indigenous American cultures have been so aggressively erased that we can barely empathize with them anymore as fellow human beings. As I wrote in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34329605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34329605, imagine if instead this were the "Irish Software Foundation". It would be so blatantly stupid that it would never come to exist in the first place.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- fidgewidge 4y agoRenaming Apache on any kind of sane timeframe is impossible. The name is baked into hundreds of millions of lines of Java in such a way that if you attempted to rename it, all you'd do is cause chaos, bugs and security vulnerabilities on an epic scale for the next 30 years and it still wouldn't be done by the end. Renaming git master branches is a quick walk in the park compared to that. Which is why the correct response to these people is to tell them they're welcome to maintain forks of Apache software that uses different names and advertise them to other people, but they should not attempt to go further, like by insinuating that everyone writing and using Apache software (millions of people) are racist, because that is inflammatory, wrong, and outside of the USA most probably libel. And for those who haven't figured it out yet, this is exactly why so many of us were and still are opposed to the stupid git master branch rename. Only the wilfully blind couldn't see this sort of escalation coming. Until people power tripping on bogus victimhood claims are consistently given the cold shoulder the amount of chaos they cause will increase fast and hard.
- roughly 4y agoThere seems to be a lot of people here conflating the effort it would take to make the change with whether the ask is justified. Europeans committed genocide in America - that's not a questionable statement, that was the stated policy of the early United States government, as well as that of most colonizing powers. We then named a bunch of things after the folks we committed genocide on, and made a bunch of racist caricatures of those people and slapped them on buildings, sports teams, and other cultural institutions. The survivors of that genocide are asking we stop doing that. It's a reasonable ask. It's probably not going to happen in this case, because it's a lot of fucking work, but it's a reasonable ask. They'd also like their land back, as well as their worldly possessions, maybe an apology, and, like, whatever else you do to make up for trying to wipe out several distinct entire peoples, and that's also sort of morally hard to argue with, even though it's also not going to happen. It's possible to say that a claim is justified and also that the work to do it is sufficiently large that it's not going to happen. It doesn't feel good, but it shouldn't.
- subsistence234 4y ago>The survivors of that genocide are asking we stop doing that. No they aren't. Three people are asking. Three people, who most likely didn't survive anything, and just realized that extortion is easy money. _______ Vote on it! Let's ask the actual members of the Apache tribes today how they feel about the name. We both know this is gonna be like "latinx" -- only white people (with lots of "education" and rich parents) care about this stuff.
- anthk 4y agoNot white people, but non-Spanish speaker. You know, Spanish speakers are of any race. But someone who puts "latinx", obviously, is not even 2nd language speaker.
- johnea 4y agoMaybe they should use: Apatchy In conformance to the many needed patches roots?
- vfclists 4y agoThe name of the group Natives In Tech says it all. A group probably sponsored or backed by some white owned and controlled foundations, just like Black Lives Matter. I'd love to see their articles of incorporation.