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I believe you are misunderstanding. Pascal's Triangle is not some obscure and difficult mathematical formula you are expected to have memorized...This is not "

by YmMot 15y ago

I believe you are misunderstanding. Pascal's Triangle is not some obscure and difficult mathematical formula you are expected to have memorized...This is not "construct Pascals Triangle and if you don't know what that is, too bad..." It's a very simple concept and doesn't require the knowledge of anything other than simple arithmetic; any competent programmer should be able to write a program to construct one once the concept is explained to them...it's just a couple of for loops, some printfs, and straightforward logic. That's the whole point the poster was making...really simple programming problems like fizzbuzz etc are useful at quickly weeding out people who lack very basic programming ability. Constructing Pascals Triangle is obviously not a part of normal programming, but the ability to take an algorithm that has been described to you verbally and translate it into code is at the heart of all programming...that's what programming is basically. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a real programmer.

kls 15y ago
Then you need to give said competent programmer a computer, a compiler, a debugger and the ability to search for information. You are asking a programmer to show you that they are competent in their daily work, but not giving them any of their tool that they work with to do so. Again it's like asking a frame carpenter to draw a truss and expecting that to somehow represent their daily activity of putting a truss together. If you want to test somebody do it how https://webmynd.com/ https://webmynd.com/ does it and make it a pre requisite of getting to the interview that way developers can do it on their terms using their tools of the trade and opt out before they are stuck in a room in a bad situation. I still contend that you are not gaining much insight and are producing an unnecessary filter that can do you more damage than good. I was on a project once that was cursed, we had a developer have a stroke, I had to have my heart restarted due to SVT from sleep deprivation etc. etc. We literally lost everyone that knew the technology except for me and I was not in good shape, and there was this one guy Tom Marra, he was an artist, but the kid had passion he had never coded in his life, but we where in a really bad situation, once he found out that with source control he could hack the crap out of the code and then just re-pull to fix his mistakes, he set out to teach himself JavaScript, on his own initiative. In less than a month he was contributing code to source control and in 2 months you could not tell his code from a seasoned pro's. The one quality this kid had was passion. You can't identify Tom Marra's by making them solve trivia on a whiteboard.
- YmMot 15y ago
  Well nobody said they aren't being given those things, you certainly might be...however even then it's not true. None of those things are necessary to solve the problem. There's no need to search for information...all the information you need is contained in the problem. It's an exceedingly simple algorithm, and if you can't take the verbal explanation and translate it into code, you are simply not a programmer. What would you search for, how to make a for-loop? If you don't know such basics as flow control and basic logic, you probably need to go back to school. If you can't remember the usage of printf then you either picked the wrong language, or ask for help, or simple explain you'll fudge it a little and a good interviewer wouldn't penalize you. I'd note if you are interviewing for a language-specific position and said you are fluent in it, not knowing such a basic API might count against you though... I think the important thing you are missing is that generally in "whiteboard" type situations, you are not expected to produce a completely correct/compilable program. Generally pseudo-code or whatever language you please is accepted and if you make some small syntax or logic error it's not a big deal. In light of that, a compiler/IDE/computer is not necessary unless you have some other reason to require them...such as a disability. The important part is to see how one reasons through the process of taking a described algorithm and translating it into code...that is the essence of programming. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a programmer. Your analogy is false...in your example the person is not being tested on the actual job they are expected to perform. Obviously that's not a good test. In this case the programmer is being tested on precisely what their day to day job is: taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code....so an accurate analogy would be to ask an architect to sketch a simple truss structure and discuss it, which is not unreasonable. The entire point here is to give a drop dead simple problem to weed out the people who are fundamentally unfit for the position.
  - kls 15y ago
    Generally pseudo-code is accepted and if you make some small error it's not a big deal. Do you think this accurately reflects the working conditions of a developer? Do you think that they jump into problems and that small errors are OK to them? do you think that they will be comfortable making those small errors in front of people, given that they A) generally would not accept them for themselves, and B) how critical some people can be of code that is not their own? Do you think they will be able to put there best foot forward in such an unnatural situation? They may blank, they may freeze and they may just be the type of person that reflects on an issue for a while before the set out to code. What would you search for I personally would search for the mathematical formula and a text description that I could put on my second monitor as reference. But first I would search for a standard library and avoid the effort all together. taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code I personally never work from verbal descriptions, I document the issue, and place it into a ticket system in which I work the tickets based on priority.
kamaal 15y ago
Well why are you talking of mathematics and arithmetic, this is a programming interview not an interview to hire mathematicians. Besides will you hire a novelist on how well he can solve crosswords?

by YmMot 15y ago

kls 15y ago

Then you need to give said competent programmer a computer, a compiler, a debugger and the ability to search for information. You are asking a programmer to show you that they are competent in their daily work, but not giving them any of their tool that they work with to do so. Again it's like asking a frame carpenter to draw a truss and expecting that to somehow represent their daily activity of putting a truss together. If you want to test somebody do it how https://webmynd.com/ https://webmynd.com/ does it and make it a pre requisite of getting to the interview that way developers can do it on their terms using their tools of the trade and opt out before they are stuck in a room in a bad situation. I still contend that you are not gaining much insight and are producing an unnecessary filter that can do you more damage than good. I was on a project once that was cursed, we had a developer have a stroke, I had to have my heart restarted due to SVT from sleep deprivation etc. etc. We literally lost everyone that knew the technology except for me and I was not in good shape, and there was this one guy Tom Marra, he was an artist, but the kid had passion he had never coded in his life, but we where in a really bad situation, once he found out that with source control he could hack the crap out of the code and then just re-pull to fix his mistakes, he set out to teach himself JavaScript, on his own initiative. In less than a month he was contributing code to source control and in 2 months you could not tell his code from a seasoned pro's. The one quality this kid had was passion. You can't identify Tom Marra's by making them solve trivia on a whiteboard.

YmMot 15y ago
Well nobody said they aren't being given those things, you certainly might be...however even then it's not true. None of those things are necessary to solve the problem. There's no need to search for information...all the information you need is contained in the problem. It's an exceedingly simple algorithm, and if you can't take the verbal explanation and translate it into code, you are simply not a programmer. What would you search for, how to make a for-loop? If you don't know such basics as flow control and basic logic, you probably need to go back to school. If you can't remember the usage of printf then you either picked the wrong language, or ask for help, or simple explain you'll fudge it a little and a good interviewer wouldn't penalize you. I'd note if you are interviewing for a language-specific position and said you are fluent in it, not knowing such a basic API might count against you though... I think the important thing you are missing is that generally in "whiteboard" type situations, you are not expected to produce a completely correct/compilable program. Generally pseudo-code or whatever language you please is accepted and if you make some small syntax or logic error it's not a big deal. In light of that, a compiler/IDE/computer is not necessary unless you have some other reason to require them...such as a disability. The important part is to see how one reasons through the process of taking a described algorithm and translating it into code...that is the essence of programming. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a programmer. Your analogy is false...in your example the person is not being tested on the actual job they are expected to perform. Obviously that's not a good test. In this case the programmer is being tested on precisely what their day to day job is: taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code....so an accurate analogy would be to ask an architect to sketch a simple truss structure and discuss it, which is not unreasonable. The entire point here is to give a drop dead simple problem to weed out the people who are fundamentally unfit for the position.
- kls 15y ago
  Generally pseudo-code is accepted and if you make some small error it's not a big deal. Do you think this accurately reflects the working conditions of a developer? Do you think that they jump into problems and that small errors are OK to them? do you think that they will be comfortable making those small errors in front of people, given that they A) generally would not accept them for themselves, and B) how critical some people can be of code that is not their own? Do you think they will be able to put there best foot forward in such an unnatural situation? They may blank, they may freeze and they may just be the type of person that reflects on an issue for a while before the set out to code. What would you search for I personally would search for the mathematical formula and a text description that I could put on my second monitor as reference. But first I would search for a standard library and avoid the effort all together. taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code I personally never work from verbal descriptions, I document the issue, and place it into a ticket system in which I work the tickets based on priority.

kamaal 15y ago

Well why are you talking of mathematics and arithmetic, this is a programming interview not an interview to hire mathematicians. Besides will you hire a novelist on how well he can solve crosswords?