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Same here and I have delivers some big stuff, your single test would have filtered me out and I am without a doubt a 10Xer in my field. We assume what we know i

by kls 15y ago

Same here and I have delivers some big stuff, your single test would have filtered me out and I am without a doubt a 10Xer in my field. We assume what we know is common knowledge because we know it. But each of us knows different things and that is what makes us valuable. I have to ask the parent poster if they truly feel that people need to know this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle to deliver web or mobile solutions? You are highlighting the issue that the article is talking about. Further, a whiteboard is like giving a mechanic a drawing of a car and a hammer and saying fix the head gasket. If creating a row from a Pascal Triangle was a real issue that crossed my desk the first thing I would do is hit Google to find the mathematical formula and explanation of what it does then I would see if there is a standard library and finally I would write it if one does not exist. Your whiteboard does not have search capabilities on it, so how are you expecting someone to show you how they work when you have provided them with any semblance of an environment that they would work in.

jsnell 15y ago
Of course not. It's not a trivia question to see if you happen to know the term. Or a trivia question to see if you happen to remember some particular trick to solve the problem. It's just an arbitrary task that will have you solve an easy problem that you probably have not done before, and write code for it. As such, the interviewer would obviously give the necessary background information. Either up front or when requested.
YmMot 15y ago
I believe you are misunderstanding. Pascal's Triangle is not some obscure and difficult mathematical formula you are expected to have memorized...This is not "construct Pascals Triangle and if you don't know what that is, too bad..." It's a very simple concept and doesn't require the knowledge of anything other than simple arithmetic; any competent programmer should be able to write a program to construct one once the concept is explained to them...it's just a couple of for loops, some printfs, and straightforward logic. That's the whole point the poster was making...really simple programming problems like fizzbuzz etc are useful at quickly weeding out people who lack very basic programming ability. Constructing Pascals Triangle is obviously not a part of normal programming, but the ability to take an algorithm that has been described to you verbally and translate it into code is at the heart of all programming...that's what programming is basically. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a real programmer.
- kls 15y ago
  Then you need to give said competent programmer a computer, a compiler, a debugger and the ability to search for information. You are asking a programmer to show you that they are competent in their daily work, but not giving them any of their tool that they work with to do so. Again it's like asking a frame carpenter to draw a truss and expecting that to somehow represent their daily activity of putting a truss together. If you want to test somebody do it how https://webmynd.com/ https://webmynd.com/ does it and make it a pre requisite of getting to the interview that way developers can do it on their terms using their tools of the trade and opt out before they are stuck in a room in a bad situation. I still contend that you are not gaining much insight and are producing an unnecessary filter that can do you more damage than good. I was on a project once that was cursed, we had a developer have a stroke, I had to have my heart restarted due to SVT from sleep deprivation etc. etc. We literally lost everyone that knew the technology except for me and I was not in good shape, and there was this one guy Tom Marra, he was an artist, but the kid had passion he had never coded in his life, but we where in a really bad situation, once he found out that with source control he could hack the crap out of the code and then just re-pull to fix his mistakes, he set out to teach himself JavaScript, on his own initiative. In less than a month he was contributing code to source control and in 2 months you could not tell his code from a seasoned pro's. The one quality this kid had was passion. You can't identify Tom Marra's by making them solve trivia on a whiteboard.
  - YmMot 15y ago
    Well nobody said they aren't being given those things, you certainly might be...however even then it's not true. None of those things are necessary to solve the problem. There's no need to search for information...all the information you need is contained in the problem. It's an exceedingly simple algorithm, and if you can't take the verbal explanation and translate it into code, you are simply not a programmer. What would you search for, how to make a for-loop? If you don't know such basics as flow control and basic logic, you probably need to go back to school. If you can't remember the usage of printf then you either picked the wrong language, or ask for help, or simple explain you'll fudge it a little and a good interviewer wouldn't penalize you. I'd note if you are interviewing for a language-specific position and said you are fluent in it, not knowing such a basic API might count against you though... I think the important thing you are missing is that generally in "whiteboard" type situations, you are not expected to produce a completely correct/compilable program. Generally pseudo-code or whatever language you please is accepted and if you make some small syntax or logic error it's not a big deal. In light of that, a compiler/IDE/computer is not necessary unless you have some other reason to require them...such as a disability. The important part is to see how one reasons through the process of taking a described algorithm and translating it into code...that is the essence of programming. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a programmer. Your analogy is false...in your example the person is not being tested on the actual job they are expected to perform. Obviously that's not a good test. In this case the programmer is being tested on precisely what their day to day job is: taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code....so an accurate analogy would be to ask an architect to sketch a simple truss structure and discuss it, which is not unreasonable. The entire point here is to give a drop dead simple problem to weed out the people who are fundamentally unfit for the position.

by kls 15y ago

jsnell 15y ago

Of course not. It's not a trivia question to see if you happen to know the term. Or a trivia question to see if you happen to remember some particular trick to solve the problem. It's just an arbitrary task that will have you solve an easy problem that you probably have not done before, and write code for it. As such, the interviewer would obviously give the necessary background information. Either up front or when requested.

YmMot 15y ago

I believe you are misunderstanding. Pascal's Triangle is not some obscure and difficult mathematical formula you are expected to have memorized...This is not "construct Pascals Triangle and if you don't know what that is, too bad..." It's a very simple concept and doesn't require the knowledge of anything other than simple arithmetic; any competent programmer should be able to write a program to construct one once the concept is explained to them...it's just a couple of for loops, some printfs, and straightforward logic. That's the whole point the poster was making...really simple programming problems like fizzbuzz etc are useful at quickly weeding out people who lack very basic programming ability. Constructing Pascals Triangle is obviously not a part of normal programming, but the ability to take an algorithm that has been described to you verbally and translate it into code is at the heart of all programming...that's what programming is basically. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a real programmer.

kls 15y ago
Then you need to give said competent programmer a computer, a compiler, a debugger and the ability to search for information. You are asking a programmer to show you that they are competent in their daily work, but not giving them any of their tool that they work with to do so. Again it's like asking a frame carpenter to draw a truss and expecting that to somehow represent their daily activity of putting a truss together. If you want to test somebody do it how https://webmynd.com/ https://webmynd.com/ does it and make it a pre requisite of getting to the interview that way developers can do it on their terms using their tools of the trade and opt out before they are stuck in a room in a bad situation. I still contend that you are not gaining much insight and are producing an unnecessary filter that can do you more damage than good. I was on a project once that was cursed, we had a developer have a stroke, I had to have my heart restarted due to SVT from sleep deprivation etc. etc. We literally lost everyone that knew the technology except for me and I was not in good shape, and there was this one guy Tom Marra, he was an artist, but the kid had passion he had never coded in his life, but we where in a really bad situation, once he found out that with source control he could hack the crap out of the code and then just re-pull to fix his mistakes, he set out to teach himself JavaScript, on his own initiative. In less than a month he was contributing code to source control and in 2 months you could not tell his code from a seasoned pro's. The one quality this kid had was passion. You can't identify Tom Marra's by making them solve trivia on a whiteboard.
- YmMot 15y ago
  Well nobody said they aren't being given those things, you certainly might be...however even then it's not true. None of those things are necessary to solve the problem. There's no need to search for information...all the information you need is contained in the problem. It's an exceedingly simple algorithm, and if you can't take the verbal explanation and translate it into code, you are simply not a programmer. What would you search for, how to make a for-loop? If you don't know such basics as flow control and basic logic, you probably need to go back to school. If you can't remember the usage of printf then you either picked the wrong language, or ask for help, or simple explain you'll fudge it a little and a good interviewer wouldn't penalize you. I'd note if you are interviewing for a language-specific position and said you are fluent in it, not knowing such a basic API might count against you though... I think the important thing you are missing is that generally in "whiteboard" type situations, you are not expected to produce a completely correct/compilable program. Generally pseudo-code or whatever language you please is accepted and if you make some small syntax or logic error it's not a big deal. In light of that, a compiler/IDE/computer is not necessary unless you have some other reason to require them...such as a disability. The important part is to see how one reasons through the process of taking a described algorithm and translating it into code...that is the essence of programming. If you can't do it, you are ipso facto not a programmer. Your analogy is false...in your example the person is not being tested on the actual job they are expected to perform. Obviously that's not a good test. In this case the programmer is being tested on precisely what their day to day job is: taking a verbal description of a process and translating it into code....so an accurate analogy would be to ask an architect to sketch a simple truss structure and discuss it, which is not unreasonable. The entire point here is to give a drop dead simple problem to weed out the people who are fundamentally unfit for the position.