12 ms·

Seattle Public Schools sues TikTok, YouTube, Instagram over youth mental health

169 points by chimerasaurus 4y ago

tqi 4y ago
Political grandstanding by school board members eyeing higher offices is abhorrent.
- bozhark 4y ago
  Was wondering why this made the second page
- kaptainscarlet 4y ago
  No grandstanding in my opinion. Social media is a very dangerous and addictive drug that is difficult to police. It should be heavily regulated as it's destroying society.
  - raincom 4y ago
    If the drug is distributed by, controlled by, the American govt using its tech companies, such a drug is fine. The moment, the control goes to Chinese, yes, it is a big NO :)
    - shkkmo 4y ago
      Two of the three companies being sued are based in the USA.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > Social media is a very dangerous and addictive drug that is difficult to police. It should be heavily regulated as it's destroying society. 100% agree, but > No grandstanding It's definitely grandstanding. Even though they're right about social media, it's definitely grandstanding. A cause being just doesn't mean people aren't grandstanding about it. This is grandstanding because it's a public stunt that is very unlikely to bear any fruit besides bolstering the reputation of the people doing it.
    - DueDilligence 4y ago
      .. you've much to learn on the tenaciousness of a highly focused legal team - which is core to this lawsuit.
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        Well, I earnestly do wish you luck. I hope you prove me a pessimist.
      - CyberDildonics 4y ago
        Saying ".. you've much to learn" isn't evidence or an explanation of anything. If you have something you can explain, go ahead.
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    Has there ever been a non-specious charge of destroying society? How can social media destroy society when rock music, jazz, women wearing pants, pool, single mothers, and novels have already done so?
xrd 4y ago
So far, two comments saying this is grandstanding by the school board. If you replace social media with drugs and high schoolers with homeless people, wouldn't it be more typical for people to be saying that elected officials aren't doing ANYTHING! What's the difference? I have read enough to know that these social media companies are employing behavioral scientists that are attempting to make their products addictive. And, I believe teenage brains are particularly succeptible. So this doesn't seem like grandstanding to me.
- ehhthing 4y ago
  I am not a lawyer, but this seems like the school board have no standing (in the legal sense) to be filing this lawsuit. I do not believe that social media companies have the duty of care to the school boards to maintain kids' mental health. Some of the things in the lawsuit are just stupid like arguing that social media causes them to need to do investigations into threats and such. You wouldn't be suing the USPS or AT&T for allowing the same thing, would you? Sure these aren't the same thing as social media, but whether a duty of care exists should be a relatively similar analysis.
  - poulsbohemian 4y ago
    >seems like the school board have no standing That was exactly my reaction. If Bob Ferguson (WA AG) wanted to pursue such a case, he / the state would have standing - and as far as I know, the school board asking the state and getting other school boards involved in such a case would be the more powerful approach. This is Seattle though, with its particular political leanings, and/or it could also be a bit of a Hail Mary - do this to show frustration in hopes that the AG or similar parties will take action.
    - DueDilligence 4y ago
      .. chiming in: Bob has indeed been looped in since this suit was on the table four years ago - and participated in person to the 3 meetings where this suit was on the agenda. I have heard his comments and discussion first hand. I know there to be at least two of his staff handling this suit. It is common for these types of well-executed lawsuits where the named-party is a public entity - for the relevant legislative office to NOT present a public statement until several weeks after filing the suit. I can assure you that the AG or representative thereof, will do so in the coming weeks.
tedunangst 4y ago
Unclear why the school has standing, except they have to deal with depressed students, but doesn't everybody? Can Starbucks sue because it's become harder to find cheerful baristas?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  They have standing because its a statutory tort and because and to the extent thar they allege the kind of action and injury that the statute makes compensable. You seem to be imaging the kind of analysis done for a suit that is not based on a statute providing liability, but on a conflict of laws trying to negate or enjoin a government action for violating a controlling law that does not provide a explicit right of action to the plaintiff to sue, but that’s not necessary when a statute provides an explicit cause of action.
  - EarlKing 4y ago
    Their alleged standing is predicated on a single count of violating the Washington Public Nuisance Law, RCW 7.48.010 (see page 86 of their complaint[1])[2]. So their torturous logic is that somehow not only are the defendants' services addictive, but that the addiction thereof spurs students to engage in violent and/or disruptive behaviors that interferes with the enjoyment of school property and the safety of its employees (thus violating RCW 7.48.010 et seq.), thereby giving these clowns standing to sue. Even if we take their claims at face value that the defendants knowingly created products that are demonstrably addictive, materially contributing to the conditions that occasioned this suit, the offences named in that section are unconstitutionally vague and, to the extent that it is those vague portions are those asserted in the cause of action, should be unenforceable. I'm having a hard time believing Seattle School District No 1 actually thinks they'll succeed on the "merits" of this case, and am inclined to agree that this is nothing more than a publicity stunt on their part to call attention to a "problem" that has a fairly clear solution: students with behavioral issues tied to use of social networking services that are disruptive to school functions can and should be expelled. Problem solved. -- [1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.317950/gov.uscourts.wawd.317950.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... [2] https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48
charcircuit 4y ago
This lawsuit is an embarrassment using a compilation of anti social media arguments including misleading ones where the truth is twisted to make an argument. >Meta also delays the time it takes to load the feed. “This is because without that three-second delay, Instagram wouldn’t feel variable.” This isn't a fact. They are literally quoting speculation from Vice while making it seem like an official quote from Meta. Twitter and Instagram take time to load the feed because it's a nontrivial operation. I'd expect adding fake delays to your app will just cause people to get annoyed and use your app less.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > They are literally quoting speculation from Vice while making it seem like an official quote from Meta. They literally provide the exact source of the quote. It is speculation but it isn't unreasonable since we know they've made similar types if decisions to maximize engadgement.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    While they quote the article they don't make it clear who they are quoting or that it is speculation. Yes, one can check the article to see if the quote is coming from information from Meta, but one shouldn't have to. >we know they've made similar types if decisions to maximize engadgement Name a similar decision. The closest thing to this I can think of is from gacha games and not social media sites.
- DueDilligence 4y ago
  .. like I said above: ".. you've much to learn on the tenaciousness of a highly focused legal team - which is core to this lawsuit."
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    That doesn't change my opinion that they are either arguing in bad faith or they are incompetent in the argument they are making.
DueDilligence 4y ago
.. as a Seattle dad .. I fucking love this awkward yet clearly precedent-setting case. I know most of the board and the majority of us are fed up and taking the power we have to task and accountability. This has been in the works for over four years and we know the end game: new laws, adopted by other cities and states. .. it’s been a clearly focused project for over 4 years now. One of my friends is on the board. I knew it was coming Q1 2023 and glad they stayed on task. A bevy of mental health experts are core to this - so due diligence. I don’t know the layout of the legal team, but was told they have put this thru the ringer - the goal has always been a legal precedent, then actual legislation then adopted by other entities as well. The Portland School District has a parallel lawsuit as well. The pushback will be WELL propagandized and vilified. I can only imagine what garbage FOX will spew.
- danielfoster 4y ago
  The lawsuit is going to be dismissed due to lack of standing.
  - DueDilligence 4y ago
    .. it’s been a clearly focused project for over 4 years now. A colleague is on the board..A bevy of mental health experts are core to this - so due diligence. I don’t know the layout of the legal team, but was told they have put this thru the ringer - the goal has always been a legal precedent, then actual legislation, then adoption by other entities as well. The Portland School District has a parallel lawsuit as well on the tails of ours. .. I suggest this light reading: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48
    - huitzitziltzin 4y ago
      Is there a specific law that these firms are supposed to have violated? (Does there need to be? I am not a lawyer.) Does the school district have standing to sue on behalf of the students? (Is the injury that they pay more for mental health services for students?) I’m genuinely curious. There’s a surface analogy to the cases against opioid manufacturers and distributors, but those are controlled substances whereas YouTube is clearly not. There isn’t even a clear causal effect of the from YouTube -> depression, IMO. Research on this has been quite low quality. And what about the role of the parents who are the owners of the phones on which their children run TikTok? Again genuine curiosity here, not trying to be a jerk.
rychco 4y ago
So the public schools will turn a profit from the increasingly depressed teens... and then what? Business as usual with some bonus cash for counseling services? What's the real goal here? Precedent? I don't see the (non-monetary) benefit unless there are new laws introduced that severely restrict how social media is allowed to operate or outright ban various addictive techniques employed by their platforms (which will need to be constantly amended because they'll come with addictive ideas faster than they can possibly be proven addictive).
- shkkmo 4y ago
  > What's the real goal here? Precedent? Precedent is a big one, but it is also possible that the court could order these companies to take specific steps to redress this harm.
fleddr 4y ago
Had any of this harm been physical, everybody would be cheering to combat it. But because it's mental, it's "not real", right? Behavioral scientists can plot any metric against the last decade and it spectacularly deviates from what came before it, in a bad way. A seismic shift. It's a problem. A massively complicated problem where regulation will be tricky. For the record, even Zuckerberg himself has practically begged for regulation in response to issues affecting teen girls specifically.
- isitmadeofglass 4y ago
  [dead]
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > even Zuckerberg himself has practically begged for regulation in response to issues affecting teen girls specifically. I recall this being criticized as Zuckerberg cynically trying to create an anti-competitive regulatory moat around Facebook. Seems plausible to me, I have a hard time believing that Zuck has a single sincere and benevolent bone in his body. But even if he has cynical motivations for proposing it, that doesn't mean the idea itself is bad.
  - fleddr 4y ago
    With some (pending) regulation, there's indeed the risk that they require such advanced tech that only Big Tech can comply. I don't know if that is the case here. I see Zuckerberg as a sociopath in a pressure cooker, a highly competitive environment where each decision has an outsized impact. For sure he morally has a piss poor track record, but I still don't think of people like him as villain. I don't think he gets up in the morning and thinks "how can I ruin the mental health of teenage girls today"? It's possible that he wants to do the right thing, or a neutral thing, or really does want industry wide clarity on this matter. The way I think of Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Musk is that it's a system issue. You can play evil billionaire whack-a-mole but new ones will pop up.
deleted 4y ago
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- gypy 4y ago
  [flagged]
travisgriggs 4y ago
Lots of comments about this being the wrong group of people to initiate this. Others playing the “is it really the same thing” card. I find myself torn. They are often sound/reasoned arguments. But I also struggle because the state of play isn’t right either. Social media engagement is now one of the leading causes cited in divorces. My wife and I of nearly 30 years have to battle this ourselves. Something seems clearly wrong with our surveillance economy, yet we struggle to come up with sound reasoned diagnoses and remedies. I guess that’s why it persists. So I end up both thinking this suit is “silly” and at the same time cheering them on because continued optimization along this evolving status quo vector just seems so obviously wrong.
- luckylion 4y ago
  What is it you're hoping for? Prohibition, so people cannot use social media platforms because they're outlawed? I don't think that'll work, for the same reason prohibition doesn't work for anything that a large part of the population wants. And what even is social media in that sense. Aren't forums social media? HN has a score and you and other will be told how "the community" values your comments. Sure, it's not emoji thumbs pointing up and down and a frowny face, but what's the difference? Should HN be outlawed because someone might attach their self-worth to getting upvotes? Should Reddit be? I don't think the problem around social media is the "it's a feed full of trivial stuff that'll steal hours of your life", it's that you have to be on there if you want to have an active social life and not be an outsider. But if you take down facebook, instagram, twitter and tiktok, kids will find a new platform to flock to and to play their social games, bully some and make others celebrities. It's what they do, and now that the tech is here, they'll use it to do it. I don't know how hard it is for today's kids, but I sure am glad that I went through puberty before internet was a big thing in my country.
  - travisgriggs 4y ago
    I don’t know what I’m hoping for. I stated that in my original: “struggle with remedies.” HN can be addictive. So can playing with legos. So can honeycombs. But the highly mechanized addiction that occurs on some platforms is not just the baseline level addiction. It is highly engineered addiction for focused financial gain. I consider it akin to the tricks played by the tobacco industry over the years.
grecy 4y ago
(Honest question, I don't understand how the law applies globally to the internet) Given that TikTock is Chinese, what happens if they lose a court case in the US? How can anyone force them to pay up or change their ways? I assume the only outcome is either "pay up" or be banned in that jurisdiction? (Assuming they lose) I can't help thinking this is like the all the three letter US agencies trying to force US law onto countries like Sweden for The Pirate Bay.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  TikTok has business operations in the US (including offices and thousands of employees).
- richiebful1 4y ago
  There's plenty of TikTok assets in the US to seize. They have an office in Culver City, for example
  - grecy 4y ago
    Given this particular court case is brought by Public Schools in Seattle, WA , does having assets in a totally different state even matter? It's not like the Federal Government is suing them.
slavboj 4y ago
School attendance is reliably associated with student suicide rate. We know it's causal because the association tracks random variations in the school year (snow days and make-up days, teacher strikes, differences in district calendars, etc). So forgive me if I believe their concern to be less than genuine. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of-suicide-increases-on-school-days/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of...
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  Attending school might increase the suicide rate, but education doubtlessly has more than enough upsides to offset that harm. TikTok though? I don't think so. No upside of TikTok can compare to the upside of receiving an education.
  - Der_Einzige 4y ago
    How many educated kids are worth 1 suicide? I mean this quite seriously because utilitarian body count calculations are made by the US government all the time, especially in the context of transportation infrastructure. What's a good multiplyer? 10000 kids educated per suicide?
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      Even if suicides were a thousand times more common, I think the advantages of an educated population would still favor keeping schools open. Of course if practical measures can be taken today which suppress the suicide rate while still compelling kids to receive educations, I support those measures. But to do away with compulsory schooling to suppress the suicide rate is throwing the baby out with the bath water. With TikTok, there is no baby. It's all bath water.
- Auracle 4y ago
  In my experience, which in unfortunately way too much, people commit suicide when they feel trapped in a bad situation. It’s hard to think of a more likely scenario than someone that’s having a bad time at school. I hope every parent out there starts to offers up online schooling as “always an option.” It would have saved some friends of mine.
finnh 4y ago
Seattle Public Schools has seen enrollment drop 30% (!!!) over the past couple years because it is an utter shambles [0]. (correction: many schools have that level of decline or higher, but the decline district-wide is much lower). Cancelling as many advanced classes as possible, without grandfathering, so (eg) my two sons were both forced to repeat a year of math when they cancellled year-up math. An administration that is roundly hated, by parent and teacher alike. This feels like grasping in the dumbest possible way while ignoring the actual problem: if you bore the heck out of the kids, the ones who can afford to leave will. Also being bored 8 hours/day isn't good for mental health... [0] https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-school-districts-experiencing-decline-enrollment-statewide/RQAP3Q2QF5GTFA7OBN5S3NFCUQ/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-school-districts-exp...
- tempsy 4y ago
  i don’t know anything about the other issues facing the school but to say social media addiction is a “dumb” thing to address seems incredibly naive to me. growing up is hard enough as it is and social media absolutely can be detrimental to mental health if used excessively. imo the only reason we haven’t properly addressed the issue as a society is because it’s incredibly difficult to “prove” from a research perspective given the newness of social media.
  - finnh 4y ago
    Social media is awful and terrible; no argument there. But SPS has much larger problems to address internally before tackling this broader societal issue.
    - tempsy 4y ago
      You can do two things at once.
      - b1ue64 4y ago
        You can't do them well if you're incompetent.
sien 4y ago
Teenagers have changed. There are a load of interesting stats about what has changed. From 1994 to now. Percent with a driver's licence has gone from 84.7% to 72.7%, tried alcohol fro 81% to 66.1%, gone on dates from 83% to 58% and had a job from 71.7% to 55% https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1611500829441138688 https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1611500829441138688 Maybe less dates and less independence from adults is what is driving up depression. But it might be harder to sue parents.
- themitigating 4y ago
  "Why aren't parents getting kids to drink more"
  - asdff 4y ago
    Its probably not that but more that teens are socializing less and spending more time on things like homework. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/20/the-way-u-s-teens-spend-their-time-is-changing-but-differences-between-boys-and-girls-persist/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/20/the-way-u-s...
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >had a job from 71.7% to 55% Middle-aged immigrants (both illegal and legal aliens) have taken many jobs that teenagers held in the past, food preparers and deliverers at restaurants being a notable example.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  teenage pregnancies, time outside, sex, and general freedom are all down
nickphx 4y ago
What sort of mental gymnastics does one have to do to place blame on a third party when you have to seek, install the app and actively engage with? What is preventing the parents from parenting?
- mozman 4y ago
  School officials are no stranger to mental gymnastics, there are a ton of problems with school systems. It’s more indoctrination than anything else at this point.
pipeline_peak 4y ago
No one made your kids use their product, good luck.
vouaobrasil 4y ago
I fully support this lawsuit, and I also fully support society taking a stand against algorithmic social media and platforms like YouTube. Moreover, I am saying this as a content creator myself who makes money! The effects of algorithms trained to make the mind addicted are too subtle and too powerful to leave it to individuals to make their own choices about a healthy level of social media use. Moreover, most people already agree that Facebook and YouTube are not really healthy. If implementing manipulative algorithms were restricted and made illegal with extremely heavy fines, it would improve all of society, and everyone would be happier except the executives of such companies and the people being paid outrageous salaries to make such platforms addictive. As a content creator, if the amount of money I made decreased a little, I would gladly accept that if it meant everyone else spent less time on the computer. I am sickened at tech companies. Although I love programming, and worked as a programmer, I have vowed to never contribute a single line of code that could support such practices, and I suggest all programmers to do the same!
- shaftoe 4y ago
  "The effects of [X] are too subtle and too powerful to leave it to individuals to make their own choices about a healthy level of [X]. Moreover, most people already agree that [X] are not really healthy." I wholeheartedly disagree with the type of argument you are making.
  - vouaobrasil 4y ago
    A lot of people would. A lot of people like the idea that everyone should be able to make a free choice without regulation. No doubt my point of view is contentious and many people don't like it...not surprised. That's true of society among many issues. Some people also disagree with disincentives on smoking such as mandatory labels on cigarette packages (which we have in my country at least). Most societies control all sorts of things that are bad for the majority such as murder, guns, cocaine, switchblades, assault weapons, etc. I believe social media and AI should be on that list also. I get that you don't agree with that and I respect that.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Auracle 4y ago
I don’t doubt that some kids are negatively harmed by social media. However, I’m a photographer that does high school senior shoots. I follow some of my clients, and the amount of support every single teen I’ve looked at gets on everything they post is astounding. It doesn’t matter what they look like, if they post a picture they’ll have dozens or hundreds of comments telling them how gorgeous they are. Even the guys get some, though not as much. And yeah, it’s all a bit silly and vapid when everyone is saying that to everyone. You know it still feels good. I certainly could have used someone telling me I was attractive back in high school…as a guy the girl’s hints were a bit lost on me.
- plantwallshoe 4y ago
  Hey I’m just going to throw it out there - it’s weird and kinda creepy for an adult to follow a non-relative teenager on social media for just about any reason.
  - human_person 4y ago
    I disagree. It can certainly be creepy but cross generational friendships are not inherently creepy or bad. Meeting people where they socialize is a key part of friendship.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    I’m sure this attitude isn’t a reason at all for why kids have poor relationships with adults.
  - Auracle 4y ago
    I always ask before I send an invite, and it's on my business account - not a personal account. Plus every once in a while I have one where we get to know each other quite well and it's fun to see where their lives take them. I know of women photographers that literally go on trips with their "senior models," so I think me following them on social media is pretty tame in comparison.

169 points by chimerasaurus 4y ago

tqi 4y ago

Political grandstanding by school board members eyeing higher offices is abhorrent.

bozhark 4y ago
Was wondering why this made the second page
kaptainscarlet 4y ago
No grandstanding in my opinion. Social media is a very dangerous and addictive drug that is difficult to police. It should be heavily regulated as it's destroying society.
- raincom 4y ago
  If the drug is distributed by, controlled by, the American govt using its tech companies, such a drug is fine. The moment, the control goes to Chinese, yes, it is a big NO :)
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    Two of the three companies being sued are based in the USA.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > Social media is a very dangerous and addictive drug that is difficult to police. It should be heavily regulated as it's destroying society. 100% agree, but > No grandstanding It's definitely grandstanding. Even though they're right about social media, it's definitely grandstanding. A cause being just doesn't mean people aren't grandstanding about it. This is grandstanding because it's a public stunt that is very unlikely to bear any fruit besides bolstering the reputation of the people doing it.
  - DueDilligence 4y ago
    .. you've much to learn on the tenaciousness of a highly focused legal team - which is core to this lawsuit.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      Well, I earnestly do wish you luck. I hope you prove me a pessimist.
    - CyberDildonics 4y ago
      Saying ".. you've much to learn" isn't evidence or an explanation of anything. If you have something you can explain, go ahead.
- Nasrudith 4y ago
  Has there ever been a non-specious charge of destroying society? How can social media destroy society when rock music, jazz, women wearing pants, pool, single mothers, and novels have already done so?

xrd 4y ago

So far, two comments saying this is grandstanding by the school board. If you replace social media with drugs and high schoolers with homeless people, wouldn't it be more typical for people to be saying that elected officials aren't doing ANYTHING! What's the difference? I have read enough to know that these social media companies are employing behavioral scientists that are attempting to make their products addictive. And, I believe teenage brains are particularly succeptible. So this doesn't seem like grandstanding to me.

ehhthing 4y ago
I am not a lawyer, but this seems like the school board have no standing (in the legal sense) to be filing this lawsuit. I do not believe that social media companies have the duty of care to the school boards to maintain kids' mental health. Some of the things in the lawsuit are just stupid like arguing that social media causes them to need to do investigations into threats and such. You wouldn't be suing the USPS or AT&T for allowing the same thing, would you? Sure these aren't the same thing as social media, but whether a duty of care exists should be a relatively similar analysis.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  >seems like the school board have no standing That was exactly my reaction. If Bob Ferguson (WA AG) wanted to pursue such a case, he / the state would have standing - and as far as I know, the school board asking the state and getting other school boards involved in such a case would be the more powerful approach. This is Seattle though, with its particular political leanings, and/or it could also be a bit of a Hail Mary - do this to show frustration in hopes that the AG or similar parties will take action.
  - DueDilligence 4y ago
    .. chiming in: Bob has indeed been looped in since this suit was on the table four years ago - and participated in person to the 3 meetings where this suit was on the agenda. I have heard his comments and discussion first hand. I know there to be at least two of his staff handling this suit. It is common for these types of well-executed lawsuits where the named-party is a public entity - for the relevant legislative office to NOT present a public statement until several weeks after filing the suit. I can assure you that the AG or representative thereof, will do so in the coming weeks.

tedunangst 4y ago

Unclear why the school has standing, except they have to deal with depressed students, but doesn't everybody? Can Starbucks sue because it's become harder to find cheerful baristas?

dragonwriter 4y ago
They have standing because its a statutory tort and because and to the extent thar they allege the kind of action and injury that the statute makes compensable. You seem to be imaging the kind of analysis done for a suit that is not based on a statute providing liability, but on a conflict of laws trying to negate or enjoin a government action for violating a controlling law that does not provide a explicit right of action to the plaintiff to sue, but that’s not necessary when a statute provides an explicit cause of action.
- EarlKing 4y ago
  Their alleged standing is predicated on a single count of violating the Washington Public Nuisance Law, RCW 7.48.010 (see page 86 of their complaint[1])[2]. So their torturous logic is that somehow not only are the defendants' services addictive, but that the addiction thereof spurs students to engage in violent and/or disruptive behaviors that interferes with the enjoyment of school property and the safety of its employees (thus violating RCW 7.48.010 et seq.), thereby giving these clowns standing to sue. Even if we take their claims at face value that the defendants knowingly created products that are demonstrably addictive, materially contributing to the conditions that occasioned this suit, the offences named in that section are unconstitutionally vague and, to the extent that it is those vague portions are those asserted in the cause of action, should be unenforceable. I'm having a hard time believing Seattle School District No 1 actually thinks they'll succeed on the "merits" of this case, and am inclined to agree that this is nothing more than a publicity stunt on their part to call attention to a "problem" that has a fairly clear solution: students with behavioral issues tied to use of social networking services that are disruptive to school functions can and should be expelled. Problem solved. -- [1] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.317950/gov.uscourts.wawd.317950.1.0.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... [2] https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48

charcircuit 4y ago

This lawsuit is an embarrassment using a compilation of anti social media arguments including misleading ones where the truth is twisted to make an argument. >Meta also delays the time it takes to load the feed. “This is because without that three-second delay, Instagram wouldn’t feel variable.” This isn't a fact. They are literally quoting speculation from Vice while making it seem like an official quote from Meta. Twitter and Instagram take time to load the feed because it's a nontrivial operation. I'd expect adding fake delays to your app will just cause people to get annoyed and use your app less.

shkkmo 4y ago
> They are literally quoting speculation from Vice while making it seem like an official quote from Meta. They literally provide the exact source of the quote. It is speculation but it isn't unreasonable since we know they've made similar types if decisions to maximize engadgement.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  While they quote the article they don't make it clear who they are quoting or that it is speculation. Yes, one can check the article to see if the quote is coming from information from Meta, but one shouldn't have to. >we know they've made similar types if decisions to maximize engadgement Name a similar decision. The closest thing to this I can think of is from gacha games and not social media sites.
DueDilligence 4y ago
.. like I said above: ".. you've much to learn on the tenaciousness of a highly focused legal team - which is core to this lawsuit."
- charcircuit 4y ago
  That doesn't change my opinion that they are either arguing in bad faith or they are incompetent in the argument they are making.

DueDilligence 4y ago

.. as a Seattle dad .. I fucking love this awkward yet clearly precedent-setting case. I know most of the board and the majority of us are fed up and taking the power we have to task and accountability. This has been in the works for over four years and we know the end game: new laws, adopted by other cities and states. .. it’s been a clearly focused project for over 4 years now. One of my friends is on the board. I knew it was coming Q1 2023 and glad they stayed on task. A bevy of mental health experts are core to this - so due diligence. I don’t know the layout of the legal team, but was told they have put this thru the ringer - the goal has always been a legal precedent, then actual legislation then adopted by other entities as well. The Portland School District has a parallel lawsuit as well. The pushback will be WELL propagandized and vilified. I can only imagine what garbage FOX will spew.

danielfoster 4y ago
The lawsuit is going to be dismissed due to lack of standing.
- DueDilligence 4y ago
  .. it’s been a clearly focused project for over 4 years now. A colleague is on the board..A bevy of mental health experts are core to this - so due diligence. I don’t know the layout of the legal team, but was told they have put this thru the ringer - the goal has always been a legal precedent, then actual legislation, then adoption by other entities as well. The Portland School District has a parallel lawsuit as well on the tails of ours. .. I suggest this light reading: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.48
  - huitzitziltzin 4y ago
    Is there a specific law that these firms are supposed to have violated? (Does there need to be? I am not a lawyer.) Does the school district have standing to sue on behalf of the students? (Is the injury that they pay more for mental health services for students?) I’m genuinely curious. There’s a surface analogy to the cases against opioid manufacturers and distributors, but those are controlled substances whereas YouTube is clearly not. There isn’t even a clear causal effect of the from YouTube -> depression, IMO. Research on this has been quite low quality. And what about the role of the parents who are the owners of the phones on which their children run TikTok? Again genuine curiosity here, not trying to be a jerk.

rychco 4y ago

So the public schools will turn a profit from the increasingly depressed teens... and then what? Business as usual with some bonus cash for counseling services? What's the real goal here? Precedent? I don't see the (non-monetary) benefit unless there are new laws introduced that severely restrict how social media is allowed to operate or outright ban various addictive techniques employed by their platforms (which will need to be constantly amended because they'll come with addictive ideas faster than they can possibly be proven addictive).

shkkmo 4y ago
> What's the real goal here? Precedent? Precedent is a big one, but it is also possible that the court could order these companies to take specific steps to redress this harm.

fleddr 4y ago

Had any of this harm been physical, everybody would be cheering to combat it. But because it's mental, it's "not real", right? Behavioral scientists can plot any metric against the last decade and it spectacularly deviates from what came before it, in a bad way. A seismic shift. It's a problem. A massively complicated problem where regulation will be tricky. For the record, even Zuckerberg himself has practically begged for regulation in response to issues affecting teen girls specifically.

isitmadeofglass 4y ago
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LarryMullins 4y ago
> even Zuckerberg himself has practically begged for regulation in response to issues affecting teen girls specifically. I recall this being criticized as Zuckerberg cynically trying to create an anti-competitive regulatory moat around Facebook. Seems plausible to me, I have a hard time believing that Zuck has a single sincere and benevolent bone in his body. But even if he has cynical motivations for proposing it, that doesn't mean the idea itself is bad.
- fleddr 4y ago
  With some (pending) regulation, there's indeed the risk that they require such advanced tech that only Big Tech can comply. I don't know if that is the case here. I see Zuckerberg as a sociopath in a pressure cooker, a highly competitive environment where each decision has an outsized impact. For sure he morally has a piss poor track record, but I still don't think of people like him as villain. I don't think he gets up in the morning and thinks "how can I ruin the mental health of teenage girls today"? It's possible that he wants to do the right thing, or a neutral thing, or really does want industry wide clarity on this matter. The way I think of Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Musk is that it's a system issue. You can play evil billionaire whack-a-mole but new ones will pop up.

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gypy 4y ago
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travisgriggs 4y ago

Lots of comments about this being the wrong group of people to initiate this. Others playing the “is it really the same thing” card. I find myself torn. They are often sound/reasoned arguments. But I also struggle because the state of play isn’t right either. Social media engagement is now one of the leading causes cited in divorces. My wife and I of nearly 30 years have to battle this ourselves. Something seems clearly wrong with our surveillance economy, yet we struggle to come up with sound reasoned diagnoses and remedies. I guess that’s why it persists. So I end up both thinking this suit is “silly” and at the same time cheering them on because continued optimization along this evolving status quo vector just seems so obviously wrong.

luckylion 4y ago
What is it you're hoping for? Prohibition, so people cannot use social media platforms because they're outlawed? I don't think that'll work, for the same reason prohibition doesn't work for anything that a large part of the population wants. And what even is social media in that sense. Aren't forums social media? HN has a score and you and other will be told how "the community" values your comments. Sure, it's not emoji thumbs pointing up and down and a frowny face, but what's the difference? Should HN be outlawed because someone might attach their self-worth to getting upvotes? Should Reddit be? I don't think the problem around social media is the "it's a feed full of trivial stuff that'll steal hours of your life", it's that you have to be on there if you want to have an active social life and not be an outsider. But if you take down facebook, instagram, twitter and tiktok, kids will find a new platform to flock to and to play their social games, bully some and make others celebrities. It's what they do, and now that the tech is here, they'll use it to do it. I don't know how hard it is for today's kids, but I sure am glad that I went through puberty before internet was a big thing in my country.
- travisgriggs 4y ago
  I don’t know what I’m hoping for. I stated that in my original: “struggle with remedies.” HN can be addictive. So can playing with legos. So can honeycombs. But the highly mechanized addiction that occurs on some platforms is not just the baseline level addiction. It is highly engineered addiction for focused financial gain. I consider it akin to the tricks played by the tobacco industry over the years.

grecy 4y ago

(Honest question, I don't understand how the law applies globally to the internet) Given that TikTock is Chinese, what happens if they lose a court case in the US? How can anyone force them to pay up or change their ways? I assume the only outcome is either "pay up" or be banned in that jurisdiction? (Assuming they lose) I can't help thinking this is like the all the three letter US agencies trying to force US law onto countries like Sweden for The Pirate Bay.

shkkmo 4y ago
TikTok has business operations in the US (including offices and thousands of employees).
richiebful1 4y ago
There's plenty of TikTok assets in the US to seize. They have an office in Culver City, for example
- grecy 4y ago
  Given this particular court case is brought by Public Schools in Seattle, WA , does having assets in a totally different state even matter? It's not like the Federal Government is suing them.

slavboj 4y ago

School attendance is reliably associated with student suicide rate. We know it's causal because the association tracks random variations in the school year (snow days and make-up days, teacher strikes, differences in district calendars, etc). So forgive me if I believe their concern to be less than genuine. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of-suicide-increases-on-school-days/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of...

LarryMullins 4y ago
Attending school might increase the suicide rate, but education doubtlessly has more than enough upsides to offset that harm. TikTok though? I don't think so. No upside of TikTok can compare to the upside of receiving an education.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  How many educated kids are worth 1 suicide? I mean this quite seriously because utilitarian body count calculations are made by the US government all the time, especially in the context of transportation infrastructure. What's a good multiplyer? 10000 kids educated per suicide?
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    Even if suicides were a thousand times more common, I think the advantages of an educated population would still favor keeping schools open. Of course if practical measures can be taken today which suppress the suicide rate while still compelling kids to receive educations, I support those measures. But to do away with compulsory schooling to suppress the suicide rate is throwing the baby out with the bath water. With TikTok, there is no baby. It's all bath water.
Auracle 4y ago
In my experience, which in unfortunately way too much, people commit suicide when they feel trapped in a bad situation. It’s hard to think of a more likely scenario than someone that’s having a bad time at school. I hope every parent out there starts to offers up online schooling as “always an option.” It would have saved some friends of mine.

finnh 4y ago

Seattle Public Schools has seen enrollment drop 30% (!!!) over the past couple years because it is an utter shambles [0]. (correction: many schools have that level of decline or higher, but the decline district-wide is much lower). Cancelling as many advanced classes as possible, without grandfathering, so (eg) my two sons were both forced to repeat a year of math when they cancellled year-up math. An administration that is roundly hated, by parent and teacher alike. This feels like grasping in the dumbest possible way while ignoring the actual problem: if you bore the heck out of the kids, the ones who can afford to leave will. Also being bored 8 hours/day isn't good for mental health... [0] https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-school-districts-experiencing-decline-enrollment-statewide/RQAP3Q2QF5GTFA7OBN5S3NFCUQ/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/public-school-districts-exp...

tempsy 4y ago
i don’t know anything about the other issues facing the school but to say social media addiction is a “dumb” thing to address seems incredibly naive to me. growing up is hard enough as it is and social media absolutely can be detrimental to mental health if used excessively. imo the only reason we haven’t properly addressed the issue as a society is because it’s incredibly difficult to “prove” from a research perspective given the newness of social media.
- finnh 4y ago
  Social media is awful and terrible; no argument there. But SPS has much larger problems to address internally before tackling this broader societal issue.
  - tempsy 4y ago
    You can do two things at once.
    - b1ue64 4y ago
      You can't do them well if you're incompetent.

sien 4y ago

Teenagers have changed. There are a load of interesting stats about what has changed. From 1994 to now. Percent with a driver's licence has gone from 84.7% to 72.7%, tried alcohol fro 81% to 66.1%, gone on dates from 83% to 58% and had a job from 71.7% to 55% https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1611500829441138688 https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1611500829441138688 Maybe less dates and less independence from adults is what is driving up depression. But it might be harder to sue parents.

themitigating 4y ago
"Why aren't parents getting kids to drink more"
- asdff 4y ago
  Its probably not that but more that teens are socializing less and spending more time on things like homework. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/20/the-way-u-s-teens-spend-their-time-is-changing-but-differences-between-boys-and-girls-persist/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/20/the-way-u-s...
TMWNN 4y ago
>had a job from 71.7% to 55% Middle-aged immigrants (both illegal and legal aliens) have taken many jobs that teenagers held in the past, food preparers and deliverers at restaurants being a notable example.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
teenage pregnancies, time outside, sex, and general freedom are all down

nickphx 4y ago

What sort of mental gymnastics does one have to do to place blame on a third party when you have to seek, install the app and actively engage with? What is preventing the parents from parenting?

mozman 4y ago
School officials are no stranger to mental gymnastics, there are a ton of problems with school systems. It’s more indoctrination than anything else at this point.

pipeline_peak 4y ago

No one made your kids use their product, good luck.

vouaobrasil 4y ago

I fully support this lawsuit, and I also fully support society taking a stand against algorithmic social media and platforms like YouTube. Moreover, I am saying this as a content creator myself who makes money! The effects of algorithms trained to make the mind addicted are too subtle and too powerful to leave it to individuals to make their own choices about a healthy level of social media use. Moreover, most people already agree that Facebook and YouTube are not really healthy. If implementing manipulative algorithms were restricted and made illegal with extremely heavy fines, it would improve all of society, and everyone would be happier except the executives of such companies and the people being paid outrageous salaries to make such platforms addictive. As a content creator, if the amount of money I made decreased a little, I would gladly accept that if it meant everyone else spent less time on the computer. I am sickened at tech companies. Although I love programming, and worked as a programmer, I have vowed to never contribute a single line of code that could support such practices, and I suggest all programmers to do the same!

shaftoe 4y ago
"The effects of [X] are too subtle and too powerful to leave it to individuals to make their own choices about a healthy level of [X]. Moreover, most people already agree that [X] are not really healthy." I wholeheartedly disagree with the type of argument you are making.
- vouaobrasil 4y ago
  A lot of people would. A lot of people like the idea that everyone should be able to make a free choice without regulation. No doubt my point of view is contentious and many people don't like it...not surprised. That's true of society among many issues. Some people also disagree with disincentives on smoking such as mandatory labels on cigarette packages (which we have in my country at least). Most societies control all sorts of things that are bad for the majority such as murder, guns, cocaine, switchblades, assault weapons, etc. I believe social media and AI should be on that list also. I get that you don't agree with that and I respect that.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago

Auracle 4y ago

I don’t doubt that some kids are negatively harmed by social media. However, I’m a photographer that does high school senior shoots. I follow some of my clients, and the amount of support every single teen I’ve looked at gets on everything they post is astounding. It doesn’t matter what they look like, if they post a picture they’ll have dozens or hundreds of comments telling them how gorgeous they are. Even the guys get some, though not as much. And yeah, it’s all a bit silly and vapid when everyone is saying that to everyone. You know it still feels good. I certainly could have used someone telling me I was attractive back in high school…as a guy the girl’s hints were a bit lost on me.

plantwallshoe 4y ago
Hey I’m just going to throw it out there - it’s weird and kinda creepy for an adult to follow a non-relative teenager on social media for just about any reason.
- human_person 4y ago
  I disagree. It can certainly be creepy but cross generational friendships are not inherently creepy or bad. Meeting people where they socialize is a key part of friendship.
- bradlys 4y ago
  I’m sure this attitude isn’t a reason at all for why kids have poor relationships with adults.
- Auracle 4y ago
  I always ask before I send an invite, and it's on my business account - not a personal account. Plus every once in a while I have one where we get to know each other quite well and it's fun to see where their lives take them. I know of women photographers that literally go on trips with their "senior models," so I think me following them on social media is pretty tame in comparison.