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I would love to see some EU legislation about car dashboards. As an occasional driver of many different brands and types of vehicles, I continue to be amazed at

I would love to see some EU legislation about car dashboards. As an occasional driver of many different brands and types of vehicles, I continue to be amazed at the usability crimes being committed in the name of 'looking cool' (stated reason) as well as 'cost savings' (most likely the real reason). Any function that needs to be invoked or setting that needs to be changed by a reasonable person while driving should have dedicated hardware in a predictable position. So, that's direction indicators, outside lights (incl. high beams and fog lights), windshield wipers, cruise control, window defrost/defog, interior temperature/fan, media volume (am I forgetting anything?). There is nothing more utterly annoying and outright dangerous than having to navigate some crappy touchscreen when your windows start fogging up or you need to turn off the radio in order to talk to that nice cop that just pulled you over. Offenders here do not only include the T-brand, but also the B-brand, which has seen it fit to replace most of the controls in some of its cars with a single multi-function stalk (iDrive, I think?) that isn't good for anything, except as a reason to return your car for a refund...

misnome 4y ago
When we bought our last car we specifically avoided touchscreen-heavy interfaces. Worst we looked at was Peugeot, which not only had framerate stuttering _on the actual digital dashboard_, the radio turned on loud for us and although the digital volume button was large, you couldn’t just hold it down - you needed to repeatedly tap/lift/tap/lift/… to move it more than just one volume notch. We bought a (non-peugeot) car with a physical dial in the end.
- PreInternet01 4y ago
  Oh, thank you for mentioning digital dashboards, I completely forgot about those! So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). The last 'owned' car that I drove was my wife's quite-high-end Audi. It had a digital dashboard, which was OK and looked extremely cool... until those moments when it froze mid-drive, requiring an engine off/on cycle to recover. Which was really lovely on the highway, cruising along at an unknown speed... (Another charming feature of this car was that the AC would sometimes decide that going into full-blast, no-you-can't-turn-this-off, full-heat mode was a really great idea. This only took, like, five software updates and 18 months to be resolved. The issue where you couldn't cancel the keyfob-based seat personalization was never fixed, so whenever I (6'5") grabbed my wife's (5'2" on a warm day) car keys by mistake, there was lots of grinding of seat motors, trying to drive my knees and head into the car interior, while ignoring my desperate inputs to the 'move the seat back and down please' controls. Comfort feature indeed!)
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    I like the dashboard in my 2014 Prius. The speedometer is digital numbers, which is great because I have trouble reading dials. Never had an issue with anything freezing up. Later Toyotas I’ve rented have full color screens. They work okay.
    - PreInternet01 4y ago
      Oh, I'm fine with digital readouts, as long as there is an analog backup for when you hit that unavoidable software bug. Airplanes get this right: even on the latest Airbus, you still have the basic altitude, air/vertical speed and heading instruments, in a familiar place and configuration, based on boring physical/analog principles, just in case you need them... (and, because they're mandated by FAA [14 CFR 91] and equivalent EASA rules, which probably is for a good reason as well)
      - kayodelycaon 4y ago
        Those backup instruments are starting to be replaced with digital systems using a battery backup. And analog gyros have always needed a power source. (Doesn’t have to be electrical.) :)
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just like in a airplane if it has a problem you find the closest safe landing spot, put the plan down, and call for a mechanic.
        klyrs 4y ago
        Given that it's unsafe to drive too fast and "too fast" depends greatly on the specific road you're driving on and weather conditions, speedometers are safety equipment.
- bbx 4y ago
  Which brand of car did you end up buying? I've heard Mazda and Toyota were pretty good at keeping essential command controls as physical buttons.
  - misnome 4y ago
    Ford Focus, recent enough to have the Sync3+ software (2018+). Except for the Carplay interface, everything has physical buttons, and even then - the physical media controls (and on-steering-wheel buttons, including a physical "activate siri voice control" button) will do what you expect with the connected device. It has both digital speedometer (as an optional page in the dashboard) and physical speedometer. However, I haven't looked to see if this is continues with the more recent models/focus line alternatives.
    - bbx 4y ago
      Interesting. Last time I rented a car, I had a choice of multiple SUV brands, and I ended up picking the Ford one because it wasn't too big, had Carplay, and had lots of physical buttons. It was a pleasurable experience. However, we've owned several Fords in the past 30 years (Sierra, Mondeo, and Fiesta) and they all have had a few reliability issues, mostly electric. I'm not sure I would buy another Ford today. I hope you have better luck. But I must say that in terms of driving comfort and driver experience, they've all been great.
- Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
  My VAG car (VW/Audi/Skoda/SEAT/etc) has a great digital dash. It's super responsive, it's clear in all sun light, no framerate issues or anything. I think digital dials and things like that are excellent and aren't a problem. These have been around for around 10 years now. They have clear benefits such as having navigation info up front, music info, customizable dials, speed as a number, etc. Peugeot has always had shitty technology in their cars, they are a budget brand trying to be a premium brand.
afandian 4y ago
In the Tesla FSD video[0] the driver spent a lot of time swiping back and forth on the map. If that touchscreen were an iPad, that behaviour would be illegal in the UK. I don't know what the road law is in the US, and if they sell the same Tesla model in the UK. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34268454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34268454
- ajross 4y ago
  What's the proper control to use for interacting with a navigation aid in the UK? Or are you saying that UK law forbids in-car maps? These arguments always end up in this kind of hyper-specific realm where they seem to apply only to Tesla's particular design choices. But, in car maps are everywhere now (and, yes, Tesla's implementation is by far the best), and the natural way you use them is with touch. They absolutely make finding your way around easier and safer.
  - ht85 4y ago
    > What's the proper control to use for interacting with a navigation 1. Voice control 2. Pull over
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sieabahlpark 4y ago
      [dead]
    - mindslight 4y ago
      Back in the day I did a long cross country trip with a Garmin 60CSx hiking GPS, held in my right hand, which I was also shifting with. I didn't use it for turn by turn navigation (not a fan, especially for road trips), but rather a detailed map with a live "you are here" indicator. To look at it, I held the unit halfway up and glanced down when I could naturally spare the attention. For input, I pushed the buttons without looking, since I could predict the unit's states (push button X to zoom out, push button Y 3 times to get from map screen to statistics screen, etc). It even had text input, in the form you'd probably grimace at (alphabetically-ordered grid of letters, move using arrow buttons, select using enter button), which I believe I did while driving with no problem (it took quite a while to enter anything, of course). Due to the predictable input states and physical buttons that I never had to consciously locate (same position in my hand), it never felt like it affected my OODA loop or otherwise stole my attention.
FranzFerdiNaN 4y ago
Touch screens also make it easier to lock functionality behind subscriptions.
- acdha 4y ago
  This is only by coincidence. They’ll do that if they think they can get away with it no matter what type of controls it has.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    If your car doesn't have any internet connected software, then there is no mechanism to make a feature artificially scarce, requiring you to pay money on an on-going basis to remove the artificial limit. People may have sold subscription services for cars before 2010, but they were luxuries and without "teeth". This is different.
    - flavius29663 4y ago
      the car can be connected and still have manual controls...it's not like the touchscreen is required for internet.
    - acdha 4y ago
      > If your car doesn't have any internet connected software, then there is no mechanism to make a feature artificially scarce Here are things which were actually shipped for decades prior to internet restrictions: * charging for updates to mapping, and later GPS, software * restricting features based on physical dongles * restricting features based on dates (don’t forget that times can be set passively using radio so you can’t just easily roll the clock back) * restricting features based on use counts (anyone think some MBA isn’t dreaming of “pay $1000 for 200 crush-it™ acceleration boosts!”) * having some indicator of feature use (burnt out fuse, EEPROM, etc.) so using something you haven’t licensed means you can’t get any official service or warranty claims Beyond that, we’re talking about controls. Touchscreens are not internet access and there’s no reason to think the two would be linked here when they aren’t in any other area.
masklinn 4y ago
The last car I rented had the lane assist mode on a physical button. That was surprisingly convenient as lane assist is nice on highway but a lot less so on small rural roads with more spotty markings. Only issue is the lane assist switch 1. is not a physical toggle (it's a change mode button which doesn't change position) and 2. it's the same shape and around the buttons for quick beam adjustment and dash lighting level Though none of the three is utterly critical, and all three are rather well notified through the dashboard (a little icon is displayed for dipped beams) so even if you get it wrong by sole touch it's not really critical. The somewhat sadder part is as a rental (and thus entry level) only like 5 of the 8 possible buttons under the touchscreen have a function associated. Seems a bit of a shame to not put some more minor function on the last 3. The designers also put the "mute" function on pressing both "volume up" and "volume down" at the same time, which is easy to mistakenly do (they're at the end of the same stalk, the position is convenient but it's very easy to hit both when trying to increase or decrease volume).
phpisthebest 4y ago
>>I would love to see some EU legislation Why does the EU believe every facet of life needs to be ordered and control by government regulation, is there any area of life at all in the EU that should be free from government interference? That is an honest question because every time anything comes up the first response from citizens of the EU is to declare government should be the right and proper resolution to the problem
- happymellon 4y ago
  Because leaving it "to the market" is always a race to the bottom, and there ends up being no choice on voting with your wallet.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    You do know that Touch Screen got included in Cars due to government regulations right? The government mandated Backup Camera's and once you had to put in a screen to serve as display for the backup camera then it only makes since to use that screen for more and more things This is yet another unintended consequence of government regulations, where by now people want to use government regulation to "fix" the problems the regulation caused in the first place, which will cause even more problems as regulation always does >>"to the market" is always a race to the bottom Absolutely false, the market more than anything in human society has driven more wealth, and higher standards of living. If it incredibly ignorant to say the market is a "race the to bottom" backed by ZERO data or facts
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      Nobody ever demanded touch screens. Cars already had navigation built in that had no touch screens nor a need for them. Car companies choosing cheap, substandard designs to save a buck is something the car companies decided on. The market being a race to the bottom is visible in every single space where only a few companies control an entire industry. From supermarkets to cars, from soft drinks to tech, when competition dies down market regulation is the only way to get the interest or the general population taken care of. I'm 100% certain PepsiCo and Big Tobacco would market to toddlers if we allowed them to. Car companies have started to move to electric not because Tesla's cars were such a good business model but because governments are moving to ban internal combustion engines somewhere within the next decade; regulation is forcing these companies to innovate in ways that don't provide an immediate financial profit. Obviously a state controlled market will always fail, but a purely free market has proven to only serve the richest of the rich. Balanced regulation is key. In my opinion, cars that put common driving controls on touch screen a should never been allowed on the road.
jasmer 4y ago
Oh, it's the worst. And it's definitely not even cool. The car industry spends so much money on supposedly relevant things and yet it's a disaster. App Store and Google Play consoles are also utterly insanely bad. I think what happens is there is nobody responsible for the experience, just for the function. It does A, B and C, it looks 'cool' and so that's that.
- HellDunkel 4y ago
  This is quite accurate. I have been working in the field for the last decade.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
I think the EU should really just force any cars display to communicate with an openly documented protocol (maybe it should be standardized too but at least open) with readily available connectors. And I mean all information that is displayed on the touch screen and all input that is sent back. That way third-party products could potentially replace or enhance the screens. Of course the US should enforce this as well.
bombcar 4y ago
It’s especially sad because you can have both - a touchscreen that is only active when the vehicle is in park - and buttons for the other things needed whilst driving. But cost savings and “muh futuristic Ironman UI”.
jrsj 4y ago
If you think BMW is bad now wait until you see what Mercedes and VW have been up to
antiterra 4y ago
> also the B-brand, which has seen it fit to replace most of the controls in some of its cars with a single multi-function stalk (iDrive, I think?) that isn't good for anything, except as a reason to return your car for a refund This is exaggerated and inaccurate. I have a recent BMW and it has numerous physical controls for climate, radio and various settings like auto-hold or disable engine auto-stop/start. The multifunction puck in BMWs is fantastic, it even allows for text entry while looking at the road. I have trained myself to not use the touchscreen as much as possible and now feel very comfortable even navigating Apple Carplay with it. I also have a recent model Audi, which is far more egregious with the touch screen. Disabling auto-stop/start cannot be done persistently and it is a touch screen button, along with hill descent. Climate controls have their own dedicated touch panel, and there is no real alternative to touching anything like iDrive. The exception is that it does have an actual volume knob with on/off and next-prev functionality. It’s also worth noting that both cars also have audio controls on the steering wheel itself.
- closeparen 4y ago
  The 2023 3-series ditches physical controls except for the volume knob.
  - antiterra 4y ago
    It is definitely worse, but there are also dedicated buttons for next/prev, max defrost and max rear defrost as well as the driving mode, parking guidance.
- amelius 4y ago
  Ok, but don't you agree that touchscreen controls look very cheap compared to real knobs? Shouldn't that be a factor too, especially in higher end cars?
  - closeparen 4y ago
    The luxury automakers’ most modern glass cockpits were first incubated in their highest end models and are only now percolating down to the entry/mid levels, so no unfortunately I don’t think they read as cheap, they read as “oh awesome! just like an S class now!”
willnonya 4y ago
There shouldn't need to be any law. Solid design principles should dictate how cars are built. Instead we get trendy styling dictating what is built. No concern for human factors or basic control theory.
strawhatguy 4y ago
I agree using the touchscreen is annoying on occasion; but more legislation I’m totally opposed. We’d get much worse results over time as bad practices are enforced by the largest of car companies to further prevent new stuff from being tried. Honestly having the m3 dash clear of the clutter and most features on automatic gives me personally more focus on road and those around me. But yeah hitting the rear defroster is more inconvenient.
- chinabot 4y ago
  As a M3 driver I both love and hate the touchscreen. Everything is easy except when you are driving in traffic, being an older 60+ person with the car bouncing up and down at 100KMH, I find myself not being safely able to use the touchscreen at all in these situations I ask the passenger if there is one or use the voice control, though getting the correct wording for this takes a little bit of training and things like directing the air vents I have no clue how to do. Maybe a senior mode with big touch buttons and text and less of the bling would work for me or as someone else suggested some sort of USB add on with physical switches which integrated with the bottom of the touchscreen. Im not holding out much hope for either though.
mysterydip 4y ago
Given their plans seem to be headed towards making every feature a subscription plan, the only "logical" (from a business perspective) way to do that is an interface that can be updated for minimal cost at any time.
rightbyte 4y ago
> (am I forgetting anything?). Window elevators. Butt heater. Trip counter. Warning blinkers. Horn. That might be it?
a_e_k 4y ago
> am I forgetting anything? Horn and hazard lights.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
I use voice commands in situations where I feel that touching the screen would be dangerous. But I can also use the steering wheel scroll wheels for many functions like answering the phone, changing cabin temperature, adjusting media volume, etc. Cruise control, gear selection, wipers are all on stalks that are just a few centimetres from the steering wheel. No need for an array of buttons that I would have to move my hands from the steering wheel to use. The very last thing I want is some authority forcing the car makers to fill the dashboard with buttons or require some ghastly centre console.
virtualritz 4y ago
Particular in the context of car sharing (ShareNow, Miles, WeShare, etc.). Because you need to do the crappy touchscreen thingy every time you enter a vehicle. You drive different models from different vendors all the time. Everything is slightly different. The IVI system has commonly incomprehensible UX with deep menus. It mostly feels designed by committee (which it is, I worked on one such system for the flagship modes of one of the top German car makers a few years ago and good deep insight into the process). Physical, standardized buttons would go a long way. If you buy a car you'll have an initial learniung curve and while it sucks you can cope. As a occasional user, you're in a world of pain. I don't understand why vendors do not do IVI firmware that is tailored for the car sharing/car renting market. It needs two buttons after booting up (and they can be on a touch screen even): 1. Connect phone (Android Auto/Apple CarPlay) 2. Connect Bluetooth That's it. Many cars still do not offer the former at all. Either way, the latter or both options are commonly hidden deep in nested menus in the IVI's preferences. Early on, there were attempts. For example, car2go (now ShareNow) which was owned by Daimler, had a function, ca. 2014/2015, where it would remember the radio statio based on who was using the car. I.e. the IVI firmware of the Smart car (they only had Smarts then) was somehow integrated with the car sharing app/user profile. And it was location based. Driving car2go in Milan, Italy the cars recalled my fav. radio station there but when I was coming back to Berlin, the station I had set using a car there was automatically on. And then the next generation of Smarts was rolled out and the feature was not only gone, the firmware the cars had was just stock standard. I.e. they didn't add something like the bluetooth shortcut I mentioned above which I had expected and deprecated the feature the previous model had. It's almost a decade later and nothing has improved -- rather the opposite.

misnome 4y ago

When we bought our last car we specifically avoided touchscreen-heavy interfaces. Worst we looked at was Peugeot, which not only had framerate stuttering _on the actual digital dashboard_, the radio turned on loud for us and although the digital volume button was large, you couldn’t just hold it down - you needed to repeatedly tap/lift/tap/lift/… to move it more than just one volume notch. We bought a (non-peugeot) car with a physical dial in the end.

PreInternet01 4y ago
Oh, thank you for mentioning digital dashboards, I completely forgot about those! So, in addition to mandatory physical controls for common functions, my imaginary EU legislation would also prescribe that all essential vehicle information (speed, outside light status, fuel level) has a physical representation (lights, dials, etc., in the sense that there is nothing that could be described as 'software' driving these). The last 'owned' car that I drove was my wife's quite-high-end Audi. It had a digital dashboard, which was OK and looked extremely cool... until those moments when it froze mid-drive, requiring an engine off/on cycle to recover. Which was really lovely on the highway, cruising along at an unknown speed... (Another charming feature of this car was that the AC would sometimes decide that going into full-blast, no-you-can't-turn-this-off, full-heat mode was a really great idea. This only took, like, five software updates and 18 months to be resolved. The issue where you couldn't cancel the keyfob-based seat personalization was never fixed, so whenever I (6'5") grabbed my wife's (5'2" on a warm day) car keys by mistake, there was lots of grinding of seat motors, trying to drive my knees and head into the car interior, while ignoring my desperate inputs to the 'move the seat back and down please' controls. Comfort feature indeed!)
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I like the dashboard in my 2014 Prius. The speedometer is digital numbers, which is great because I have trouble reading dials. Never had an issue with anything freezing up. Later Toyotas I’ve rented have full color screens. They work okay.
  - PreInternet01 4y ago
    Oh, I'm fine with digital readouts, as long as there is an analog backup for when you hit that unavoidable software bug. Airplanes get this right: even on the latest Airbus, you still have the basic altitude, air/vertical speed and heading instruments, in a familiar place and configuration, based on boring physical/analog principles, just in case you need them... (and, because they're mandated by FAA [14 CFR 91] and equivalent EASA rules, which probably is for a good reason as well)
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      Those backup instruments are starting to be replaced with digital systems using a battery backup. And analog gyros have always needed a power source. (Doesn’t have to be electrical.) :)
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Those are included on Airplanes because you need those to make a safe stop (aka Landing) you DO NOT need a speedometer or any dash display at all to safely pull a car to the side of the road and stop. Therefore they should not be mandated under safety regulation, if you have a car with a digital display and it fails you pull your car to the side of the road, put on your hazards and call for a tow to the mechanic Just like in a airplane if it has a problem you find the closest safe landing spot, put the plan down, and call for a mechanic.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        Given that it's unsafe to drive too fast and "too fast" depends greatly on the specific road you're driving on and weather conditions, speedometers are safety equipment.
bbx 4y ago
Which brand of car did you end up buying? I've heard Mazda and Toyota were pretty good at keeping essential command controls as physical buttons.
- misnome 4y ago
  Ford Focus, recent enough to have the Sync3+ software (2018+). Except for the Carplay interface, everything has physical buttons, and even then - the physical media controls (and on-steering-wheel buttons, including a physical "activate siri voice control" button) will do what you expect with the connected device. It has both digital speedometer (as an optional page in the dashboard) and physical speedometer. However, I haven't looked to see if this is continues with the more recent models/focus line alternatives.
  - bbx 4y ago
    Interesting. Last time I rented a car, I had a choice of multiple SUV brands, and I ended up picking the Ford one because it wasn't too big, had Carplay, and had lots of physical buttons. It was a pleasurable experience. However, we've owned several Fords in the past 30 years (Sierra, Mondeo, and Fiesta) and they all have had a few reliability issues, mostly electric. I'm not sure I would buy another Ford today. I hope you have better luck. But I must say that in terms of driving comfort and driver experience, they've all been great.
Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
My VAG car (VW/Audi/Skoda/SEAT/etc) has a great digital dash. It's super responsive, it's clear in all sun light, no framerate issues or anything. I think digital dials and things like that are excellent and aren't a problem. These have been around for around 10 years now. They have clear benefits such as having navigation info up front, music info, customizable dials, speed as a number, etc. Peugeot has always had shitty technology in their cars, they are a budget brand trying to be a premium brand.

afandian 4y ago

In the Tesla FSD video[0] the driver spent a lot of time swiping back and forth on the map. If that touchscreen were an iPad, that behaviour would be illegal in the UK. I don't know what the road law is in the US, and if they sell the same Tesla model in the UK. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34268454 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34268454

ajross 4y ago
What's the proper control to use for interacting with a navigation aid in the UK? Or are you saying that UK law forbids in-car maps? These arguments always end up in this kind of hyper-specific realm where they seem to apply only to Tesla's particular design choices. But, in car maps are everywhere now (and, yes, Tesla's implementation is by far the best), and the natural way you use them is with touch. They absolutely make finding your way around easier and safer.
- ht85 4y ago
  > What's the proper control to use for interacting with a navigation 1. Voice control 2. Pull over
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - sieabahlpark 4y ago
    [dead]
  - mindslight 4y ago
    Back in the day I did a long cross country trip with a Garmin 60CSx hiking GPS, held in my right hand, which I was also shifting with. I didn't use it for turn by turn navigation (not a fan, especially for road trips), but rather a detailed map with a live "you are here" indicator. To look at it, I held the unit halfway up and glanced down when I could naturally spare the attention. For input, I pushed the buttons without looking, since I could predict the unit's states (push button X to zoom out, push button Y 3 times to get from map screen to statistics screen, etc). It even had text input, in the form you'd probably grimace at (alphabetically-ordered grid of letters, move using arrow buttons, select using enter button), which I believe I did while driving with no problem (it took quite a while to enter anything, of course). Due to the predictable input states and physical buttons that I never had to consciously locate (same position in my hand), it never felt like it affected my OODA loop or otherwise stole my attention.

FranzFerdiNaN 4y ago

Touch screens also make it easier to lock functionality behind subscriptions.

acdha 4y ago
This is only by coincidence. They’ll do that if they think they can get away with it no matter what type of controls it has.
- javajosh 4y ago
  If your car doesn't have any internet connected software, then there is no mechanism to make a feature artificially scarce, requiring you to pay money on an on-going basis to remove the artificial limit. People may have sold subscription services for cars before 2010, but they were luxuries and without "teeth". This is different.
  - flavius29663 4y ago
    the car can be connected and still have manual controls...it's not like the touchscreen is required for internet.
  - acdha 4y ago
    > If your car doesn't have any internet connected software, then there is no mechanism to make a feature artificially scarce Here are things which were actually shipped for decades prior to internet restrictions: * charging for updates to mapping, and later GPS, software * restricting features based on physical dongles * restricting features based on dates (don’t forget that times can be set passively using radio so you can’t just easily roll the clock back) * restricting features based on use counts (anyone think some MBA isn’t dreaming of “pay $1000 for 200 crush-it™ acceleration boosts!”) * having some indicator of feature use (burnt out fuse, EEPROM, etc.) so using something you haven’t licensed means you can’t get any official service or warranty claims Beyond that, we’re talking about controls. Touchscreens are not internet access and there’s no reason to think the two would be linked here when they aren’t in any other area.

masklinn 4y ago

The last car I rented had the lane assist mode on a physical button. That was surprisingly convenient as lane assist is nice on highway but a lot less so on small rural roads with more spotty markings. Only issue is the lane assist switch 1. is not a physical toggle (it's a change mode button which doesn't change position) and 2. it's the same shape and around the buttons for quick beam adjustment and dash lighting level Though none of the three is utterly critical, and all three are rather well notified through the dashboard (a little icon is displayed for dipped beams) so even if you get it wrong by sole touch it's not really critical. The somewhat sadder part is as a rental (and thus entry level) only like 5 of the 8 possible buttons under the touchscreen have a function associated. Seems a bit of a shame to not put some more minor function on the last 3. The designers also put the "mute" function on pressing both "volume up" and "volume down" at the same time, which is easy to mistakenly do (they're at the end of the same stalk, the position is convenient but it's very easy to hit both when trying to increase or decrease volume).

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>I would love to see some EU legislation Why does the EU believe every facet of life needs to be ordered and control by government regulation, is there any area of life at all in the EU that should be free from government interference? That is an honest question because every time anything comes up the first response from citizens of the EU is to declare government should be the right and proper resolution to the problem

happymellon 4y ago
Because leaving it "to the market" is always a race to the bottom, and there ends up being no choice on voting with your wallet.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  You do know that Touch Screen got included in Cars due to government regulations right? The government mandated Backup Camera's and once you had to put in a screen to serve as display for the backup camera then it only makes since to use that screen for more and more things This is yet another unintended consequence of government regulations, where by now people want to use government regulation to "fix" the problems the regulation caused in the first place, which will cause even more problems as regulation always does >>"to the market" is always a race to the bottom Absolutely false, the market more than anything in human society has driven more wealth, and higher standards of living. If it incredibly ignorant to say the market is a "race the to bottom" backed by ZERO data or facts
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    Nobody ever demanded touch screens. Cars already had navigation built in that had no touch screens nor a need for them. Car companies choosing cheap, substandard designs to save a buck is something the car companies decided on. The market being a race to the bottom is visible in every single space where only a few companies control an entire industry. From supermarkets to cars, from soft drinks to tech, when competition dies down market regulation is the only way to get the interest or the general population taken care of. I'm 100% certain PepsiCo and Big Tobacco would market to toddlers if we allowed them to. Car companies have started to move to electric not because Tesla's cars were such a good business model but because governments are moving to ban internal combustion engines somewhere within the next decade; regulation is forcing these companies to innovate in ways that don't provide an immediate financial profit. Obviously a state controlled market will always fail, but a purely free market has proven to only serve the richest of the rich. Balanced regulation is key. In my opinion, cars that put common driving controls on touch screen a should never been allowed on the road.

jasmer 4y ago

Oh, it's the worst. And it's definitely not even cool. The car industry spends so much money on supposedly relevant things and yet it's a disaster. App Store and Google Play consoles are also utterly insanely bad. I think what happens is there is nobody responsible for the experience, just for the function. It does A, B and C, it looks 'cool' and so that's that.

HellDunkel 4y ago
This is quite accurate. I have been working in the field for the last decade.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

I think the EU should really just force any cars display to communicate with an openly documented protocol (maybe it should be standardized too but at least open) with readily available connectors. And I mean all information that is displayed on the touch screen and all input that is sent back. That way third-party products could potentially replace or enhance the screens. Of course the US should enforce this as well.

bombcar 4y ago

It’s especially sad because you can have both - a touchscreen that is only active when the vehicle is in park - and buttons for the other things needed whilst driving. But cost savings and “muh futuristic Ironman UI”.

jrsj 4y ago

If you think BMW is bad now wait until you see what Mercedes and VW have been up to

antiterra 4y ago

> also the B-brand, which has seen it fit to replace most of the controls in some of its cars with a single multi-function stalk (iDrive, I think?) that isn't good for anything, except as a reason to return your car for a refund This is exaggerated and inaccurate. I have a recent BMW and it has numerous physical controls for climate, radio and various settings like auto-hold or disable engine auto-stop/start. The multifunction puck in BMWs is fantastic, it even allows for text entry while looking at the road. I have trained myself to not use the touchscreen as much as possible and now feel very comfortable even navigating Apple Carplay with it. I also have a recent model Audi, which is far more egregious with the touch screen. Disabling auto-stop/start cannot be done persistently and it is a touch screen button, along with hill descent. Climate controls have their own dedicated touch panel, and there is no real alternative to touching anything like iDrive. The exception is that it does have an actual volume knob with on/off and next-prev functionality. It’s also worth noting that both cars also have audio controls on the steering wheel itself.

closeparen 4y ago
The 2023 3-series ditches physical controls except for the volume knob.
- antiterra 4y ago
  It is definitely worse, but there are also dedicated buttons for next/prev, max defrost and max rear defrost as well as the driving mode, parking guidance.
amelius 4y ago
Ok, but don't you agree that touchscreen controls look very cheap compared to real knobs? Shouldn't that be a factor too, especially in higher end cars?
- closeparen 4y ago
  The luxury automakers’ most modern glass cockpits were first incubated in their highest end models and are only now percolating down to the entry/mid levels, so no unfortunately I don’t think they read as cheap, they read as “oh awesome! just like an S class now!”

willnonya 4y ago

There shouldn't need to be any law. Solid design principles should dictate how cars are built. Instead we get trendy styling dictating what is built. No concern for human factors or basic control theory.

strawhatguy 4y ago

I agree using the touchscreen is annoying on occasion; but more legislation I’m totally opposed. We’d get much worse results over time as bad practices are enforced by the largest of car companies to further prevent new stuff from being tried. Honestly having the m3 dash clear of the clutter and most features on automatic gives me personally more focus on road and those around me. But yeah hitting the rear defroster is more inconvenient.

chinabot 4y ago
As a M3 driver I both love and hate the touchscreen. Everything is easy except when you are driving in traffic, being an older 60+ person with the car bouncing up and down at 100KMH, I find myself not being safely able to use the touchscreen at all in these situations I ask the passenger if there is one or use the voice control, though getting the correct wording for this takes a little bit of training and things like directing the air vents I have no clue how to do. Maybe a senior mode with big touch buttons and text and less of the bling would work for me or as someone else suggested some sort of USB add on with physical switches which integrated with the bottom of the touchscreen. Im not holding out much hope for either though.

mysterydip 4y ago

Given their plans seem to be headed towards making every feature a subscription plan, the only "logical" (from a business perspective) way to do that is an interface that can be updated for minimal cost at any time.

rightbyte 4y ago

> (am I forgetting anything?). Window elevators. Butt heater. Trip counter. Warning blinkers. Horn. That might be it?

a_e_k 4y ago

> am I forgetting anything? Horn and hazard lights.

kwhitefoot 4y ago

I use voice commands in situations where I feel that touching the screen would be dangerous. But I can also use the steering wheel scroll wheels for many functions like answering the phone, changing cabin temperature, adjusting media volume, etc. Cruise control, gear selection, wipers are all on stalks that are just a few centimetres from the steering wheel. No need for an array of buttons that I would have to move my hands from the steering wheel to use. The very last thing I want is some authority forcing the car makers to fill the dashboard with buttons or require some ghastly centre console.

virtualritz 4y ago

Particular in the context of car sharing (ShareNow, Miles, WeShare, etc.). Because you need to do the crappy touchscreen thingy every time you enter a vehicle. You drive different models from different vendors all the time. Everything is slightly different. The IVI system has commonly incomprehensible UX with deep menus. It mostly feels designed by committee (which it is, I worked on one such system for the flagship modes of one of the top German car makers a few years ago and good deep insight into the process). Physical, standardized buttons would go a long way. If you buy a car you'll have an initial learniung curve and while it sucks you can cope. As a occasional user, you're in a world of pain. I don't understand why vendors do not do IVI firmware that is tailored for the car sharing/car renting market. It needs two buttons after booting up (and they can be on a touch screen even): 1. Connect phone (Android Auto/Apple CarPlay) 2. Connect Bluetooth That's it. Many cars still do not offer the former at all. Either way, the latter or both options are commonly hidden deep in nested menus in the IVI's preferences. Early on, there were attempts. For example, car2go (now ShareNow) which was owned by Daimler, had a function, ca. 2014/2015, where it would remember the radio statio based on who was using the car. I.e. the IVI firmware of the Smart car (they only had Smarts then) was somehow integrated with the car sharing app/user profile. And it was location based. Driving car2go in Milan, Italy the cars recalled my fav. radio station there but when I was coming back to Berlin, the station I had set using a car there was automatically on. And then the next generation of Smarts was rolled out and the feature was not only gone, the firmware the cars had was just stock standard. I.e. they didn't add something like the bluetooth shortcut I mentioned above which I had expected and deprecated the feature the previous model had. It's almost a decade later and nothing has improved -- rather the opposite.