15 ms·

Rare work-life balance. In other professions, your work day ends at 18:00, and you forget about the job. Not here. You will most likely always be online

Rare work-life balance. In other professions, your work day ends at 18:00, and you forget about the job. Not here. You will most likely always be online and checking the code, even in the evening. If that's the case, quit immediately. I've been in this industry for over a decade (oh god, has it been that long already?) and I have never had a job where I was "always online and checking the code, even in the evening". Not even when I worked at Amazon. Yes, I've been on-call. And yes, I've been paged, but never at anything like the frequency that would imply that I'm "always online".

yodsanklai 4y ago
First, there are of course many professions where you work day doesn't end at 18:00. As for our industry, I don't disagree with you but I'd be a bit more nuanced. I'm not pressured to work long hours. But I often feel that if I want to reach my goals, I need an occasional coding marathon (which I don't mind because I do like coding, like everybody else doing this job I suppose).
- quanticle 4y ago
  Right, that's the contrast I wanted to draw. In many other professions it is routine and expected that you're available in the evenings or in your off hours to deal with urgent (potentially life-threatening) issues. Programming is not one of those. If you're routinely being called upon to actually work on code in the evening, that's neither normal or healthy. An occasional coding marathon is fine. I've done it myself, but I don't expect it of anyone else, and if it became a routine expectation (as it seems to be with the author of this post), I would consider it a major red flag.
Galanwe 4y ago
> If that's the case, quit immediately If you're so uninterested by your work that thinking about it after 6pm makes you sick, why did you pick it? I've been in the industry for 15 years, coding since 25+ years, and I very often think, code, read about work or work related things at any time of the day or weekend or vacation, because I find it interesting. Why would I work in something of no interest to me?
- yamasanama 4y ago
  There is a difference between "want to" and "have to". You are talking about the former. GP about the latter.
- quanticle 4y ago
  If you're so uninterested by your work that thinking about it after 6pm makes you sick, why did you pick it? Doing anything continuously for long periods without rest is unhealthy, and leads to both declining physical and mental health. Working 10-12 hour days is something that you can do for a short burst, but if you're doing it for months on end, it will negatively impact you. I've been in the industry for 15 years, coding since 25+ years, and I very often think, code, read about work or work related things at any time of the day or weekend or vacation I think about code too, but it's rarely work code. It's usually about some hobby project or interesting algorithm that I've picked up.
  - Galanwe 4y ago
    I think your comment actually proves my point. You are admitting that you do think about code outside working hours, though you don't consider it to be work because.. it's code for a hobby project? That's not a valid point to me. What if your job was open enough that you could find dozens of interesting fun things to code on the side? That's the job you should be looking for.
    - quanticle 4y ago
      What if your job was open enough that you could find dozens of interesting fun things to code on the side? No job is that open. From your other comment in this thread: I have some days packed with meetings and calls, and I actually find it refreshing/relaxing to work on more down to earth matters in the evenings or weekend. I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't really have that many meetings or calls, and I don't have to spend my weekends and evenings doing programming. I get to do mostly programming during the day. Then, in my off hours, I have the option of programming. But I also have the option of doing other things, like watching TV or reading a book, or going for a bike ride.
renox 4y ago
I rarely goes online in the evening but when I have an interesting problem, it's not rare that I have a solution when I wake up in the morning! So you don't really stop working at 6pm..
- quanticle 4y ago
  I'll be sure to let my boss know about your definition of "working" when it's time for performance reviews :)
- pjerem 4y ago
  It really depends on each person. Maybe it’s an ADHD symptom, maybe it’s just me, but I stop thinking about work as soon as I shut down my computer. And it’s not about wether I like my work or not, it’s just that I have more important things to think about or that I just let my mind wander.
- spiffytech 4y ago
  I typically stop thinking about work entirely after I clock out. I already spent most of the day on the problem, and that exceeds my natural interest in it.
  - jooz 4y ago
    [dead]
  - OJFord 4y ago
    It goes both ways though - if I can't stop thinking about something that's just not quite working yet, then I haven't/can't 'clock out'. I think I'd like a job with truly flexible hours: work all evening on something if it's occupying my thoughts anyway, but then get a full 'evening' to chill, full night's sleep, and start the next day when I'm ready. I can do the former, but I'm still going to be expected to dial in ~to pointlessly summarise it~ for stand-up in the morning. (No I don't have young children, yes yes this wouldn't work for everybody.)
- quadcore 4y ago
  So you don't really stop working at 6pm.. I've started billing that. Not always, rarely in full, but I bill some of it. It's not just for the money but started more like "what exactly do I work? Best way to know is to bill it".
sunsunsunsun 4y ago
Ya this is rediculous. Ive been logging off for years at 5pm, sometimes even 4pm. I don't work for free. Sometimes I have had to work at night but that means I take a few hours off another day when it's slower. I often think about code at night but only in the context of a personal project.
red_admiral 4y ago
That might be the case in startups (one of the other articles on the same author's page is "Lessons learned from becoming CTO of a small startup"). One of the reasons why some developers choose to work for faceless big megacorp rather than cool aspirational startup is that there are megacorps where you log off and go home at the end of your working day, along with everyone else.
FlyingSnake 4y ago
I lead a fairly large team and I agree with this comment. It is certainly possible and healthier to disconnect from work after 17:00. Unless you’re in charge of coding a nuclear reactor core or similar, your CRUD app can always wait. A streamlined on-call process should be in place instead. Taking care of your headspace and unwinding at end of the day should be one of the most important routines in a programmer’s life.
- pc86 4y ago
  > A streamlined on-call process should be in place instead. Honestly even 99% of non-nuclear reactor code doesn't need on call. Most of the time it can wait until the morning. Amazon? Sure, have on call. Your app that's used by businesses during the business day? Fix it tomorrow.
  - quanticle 4y ago
    The part of the paragraph that really bothered me wasn't the hours, actually. It was the implication that you would be expected to code during those hours. Even when I've been on-call, I've never expected to write code, outside of business hours, during my on-call shifts. Update configuration? Sure. Roll back a broken deployment? Absolutely. But if devs are writing significant amounts of code (beyond 10-line patches, or updates to config files) in order to put out operational fires, that's a big red flag. It means that the codebase hasn't been designed to be easily changed with configuration. It means that deployments are so difficult, it's easier to try to write a patch in the moment than it is to roll back and see what went wrong in the morning. Furthermore, any code that is written under that kind of pressure isn't going to be high quality. It's going to be code that does the minimum necessary, with no documentation or unit tests. It's tech-debt equivalent of a high-interest payday loan.
- tigerlily 4y ago
  > Unless you’re in charge of coding a nuclear reactor core or similar If I'm managing this one, then you're definitely going home on time and getting a break from work each day.
amelius 4y ago
You think that doctors never mentally bring their work home?
marginalia_nu 4y ago
It's not always the job. Sometimes it's the person. Had a junior developer I literally had to shoo away from his desk at the end of the day, otherwise he'd keep working until 9 PM. I tried to tell him: Nobody asked this of him. He didn't need to prove himself, it wasn't on his back if we didn't meet the deadline, it wasn't worth sacrificing his health and the relationship with his wife and more than likely burning out before 30.
roflyear 4y ago
I was trying to get my current company to cover our cell bills because everyone messages us all the time at all hours, even past midnight. When I talked to the c levels they said there's no expectations to reply off hours so they won't cover our cells because they don't want to promote that atmosphere. I turned off all notifications and it's much better tho I think people are starting to get annoyed
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  This is a part of many company's culture I hate. Where the "official stance" is work-life balance but the reality is everyone is putting in overtime all the time with emails and chats on their phones. When I start a new job nowadays I don't install teams or slack or connect my work email to my phone. If I have messages waiting in the morning I just address them then. If anyone complains, oh well.

yodsanklai 4y ago

First, there are of course many professions where you work day doesn't end at 18:00. As for our industry, I don't disagree with you but I'd be a bit more nuanced. I'm not pressured to work long hours. But I often feel that if I want to reach my goals, I need an occasional coding marathon (which I don't mind because I do like coding, like everybody else doing this job I suppose).

quanticle 4y ago
Right, that's the contrast I wanted to draw. In many other professions it is routine and expected that you're available in the evenings or in your off hours to deal with urgent (potentially life-threatening) issues. Programming is not one of those. If you're routinely being called upon to actually work on code in the evening, that's neither normal or healthy. An occasional coding marathon is fine. I've done it myself, but I don't expect it of anyone else, and if it became a routine expectation (as it seems to be with the author of this post), I would consider it a major red flag.

Galanwe 4y ago

> If that's the case, quit immediately If you're so uninterested by your work that thinking about it after 6pm makes you sick, why did you pick it? I've been in the industry for 15 years, coding since 25+ years, and I very often think, code, read about work or work related things at any time of the day or weekend or vacation, because I find it interesting. Why would I work in something of no interest to me?

yamasanama 4y ago
There is a difference between "want to" and "have to". You are talking about the former. GP about the latter.
quanticle 4y ago
If you're so uninterested by your work that thinking about it after 6pm makes you sick, why did you pick it? Doing anything continuously for long periods without rest is unhealthy, and leads to both declining physical and mental health. Working 10-12 hour days is something that you can do for a short burst, but if you're doing it for months on end, it will negatively impact you. I've been in the industry for 15 years, coding since 25+ years, and I very often think, code, read about work or work related things at any time of the day or weekend or vacation I think about code too, but it's rarely work code. It's usually about some hobby project or interesting algorithm that I've picked up.
- Galanwe 4y ago
  I think your comment actually proves my point. You are admitting that you do think about code outside working hours, though you don't consider it to be work because.. it's code for a hobby project? That's not a valid point to me. What if your job was open enough that you could find dozens of interesting fun things to code on the side? That's the job you should be looking for.
  - quanticle 4y ago
    What if your job was open enough that you could find dozens of interesting fun things to code on the side? No job is that open. From your other comment in this thread: I have some days packed with meetings and calls, and I actually find it refreshing/relaxing to work on more down to earth matters in the evenings or weekend. I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't really have that many meetings or calls, and I don't have to spend my weekends and evenings doing programming. I get to do mostly programming during the day. Then, in my off hours, I have the option of programming. But I also have the option of doing other things, like watching TV or reading a book, or going for a bike ride.

renox 4y ago

I rarely goes online in the evening but when I have an interesting problem, it's not rare that I have a solution when I wake up in the morning! So you don't really stop working at 6pm..

quanticle 4y ago
I'll be sure to let my boss know about your definition of "working" when it's time for performance reviews :)
pjerem 4y ago
It really depends on each person. Maybe it’s an ADHD symptom, maybe it’s just me, but I stop thinking about work as soon as I shut down my computer. And it’s not about wether I like my work or not, it’s just that I have more important things to think about or that I just let my mind wander.
spiffytech 4y ago
I typically stop thinking about work entirely after I clock out. I already spent most of the day on the problem, and that exceeds my natural interest in it.
- jooz 4y ago
  [dead]
- OJFord 4y ago
  It goes both ways though - if I can't stop thinking about something that's just not quite working yet, then I haven't/can't 'clock out'. I think I'd like a job with truly flexible hours: work all evening on something if it's occupying my thoughts anyway, but then get a full 'evening' to chill, full night's sleep, and start the next day when I'm ready. I can do the former, but I'm still going to be expected to dial in ~to pointlessly summarise it~ for stand-up in the morning. (No I don't have young children, yes yes this wouldn't work for everybody.)
quadcore 4y ago
So you don't really stop working at 6pm.. I've started billing that. Not always, rarely in full, but I bill some of it. It's not just for the money but started more like "what exactly do I work? Best way to know is to bill it".

sunsunsunsun 4y ago

Ya this is rediculous. Ive been logging off for years at 5pm, sometimes even 4pm. I don't work for free. Sometimes I have had to work at night but that means I take a few hours off another day when it's slower. I often think about code at night but only in the context of a personal project.

red_admiral 4y ago

That might be the case in startups (one of the other articles on the same author's page is "Lessons learned from becoming CTO of a small startup"). One of the reasons why some developers choose to work for faceless big megacorp rather than cool aspirational startup is that there are megacorps where you log off and go home at the end of your working day, along with everyone else.

FlyingSnake 4y ago

I lead a fairly large team and I agree with this comment. It is certainly possible and healthier to disconnect from work after 17:00. Unless you’re in charge of coding a nuclear reactor core or similar, your CRUD app can always wait. A streamlined on-call process should be in place instead. Taking care of your headspace and unwinding at end of the day should be one of the most important routines in a programmer’s life.

pc86 4y ago
> A streamlined on-call process should be in place instead. Honestly even 99% of non-nuclear reactor code doesn't need on call. Most of the time it can wait until the morning. Amazon? Sure, have on call. Your app that's used by businesses during the business day? Fix it tomorrow.
- quanticle 4y ago
  The part of the paragraph that really bothered me wasn't the hours, actually. It was the implication that you would be expected to code during those hours. Even when I've been on-call, I've never expected to write code, outside of business hours, during my on-call shifts. Update configuration? Sure. Roll back a broken deployment? Absolutely. But if devs are writing significant amounts of code (beyond 10-line patches, or updates to config files) in order to put out operational fires, that's a big red flag. It means that the codebase hasn't been designed to be easily changed with configuration. It means that deployments are so difficult, it's easier to try to write a patch in the moment than it is to roll back and see what went wrong in the morning. Furthermore, any code that is written under that kind of pressure isn't going to be high quality. It's going to be code that does the minimum necessary, with no documentation or unit tests. It's tech-debt equivalent of a high-interest payday loan.
tigerlily 4y ago
> Unless you’re in charge of coding a nuclear reactor core or similar If I'm managing this one, then you're definitely going home on time and getting a break from work each day.

amelius 4y ago

You think that doctors never mentally bring their work home?

marginalia_nu 4y ago

It's not always the job. Sometimes it's the person. Had a junior developer I literally had to shoo away from his desk at the end of the day, otherwise he'd keep working until 9 PM. I tried to tell him: Nobody asked this of him. He didn't need to prove himself, it wasn't on his back if we didn't meet the deadline, it wasn't worth sacrificing his health and the relationship with his wife and more than likely burning out before 30.

roflyear 4y ago

I was trying to get my current company to cover our cell bills because everyone messages us all the time at all hours, even past midnight. When I talked to the c levels they said there's no expectations to reply off hours so they won't cover our cells because they don't want to promote that atmosphere. I turned off all notifications and it's much better tho I think people are starting to get annoyed

bluefirebrand 4y ago
This is a part of many company's culture I hate. Where the "official stance" is work-life balance but the reality is everyone is putting in overtime all the time with emails and chats on their phones. When I start a new job nowadays I don't install teams or slack or connect my work email to my phone. If I have messages waiting in the morning I just address them then. If anyone complains, oh well.