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> It isn't a bad career But there is a finite end to the career - when your body gives out. That's the biggest problem with the trades, you're selling your he

> It isn't a bad career But there is a finite end to the career - when your body gives out. That's the biggest problem with the trades, you're selling your health and body. And eventually the body parts will wear out, on a schedule decided as much by genetics as how you live.

Avshalom 4y ago
>there is a finite end to the career this actually brings to mind something else: I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense so any job that feels too specific also feels like a it'll bite you in the ass in 5 years.
- falcolas 4y ago
  A good point. I think it's even dead for the over 40 crowd, as they try and slide into a new career which they can work part time and make a living on. Given how questionable retirement as a reality is these days.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    In general, reasonably lucrative part-time work for someone coming from a professional role is tricky. And even more so if you really want to have fairly fine-grained control around both weekly workload and longer vacations. Well-paying work that lets you just pick and choose something here and there and then take a month off if you feel like it are pretty uncommon.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      You're 100% not wrong. I think in many cases through it's supplementing insufficient retirement funds, so even a low skill low wage part time job (making/selling art, garden fruits/vegetables, foods, etc) may be sufficient to provide enough runway for existing retirement funds.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Absolutely. And some people also seem to like that some of these jobs provide human interaction. Some of my private car drivers seem in this category. I'm more talking about situations where it's not mostly for the money but rather continuing the things people have enjoyed doing professionally without doing it full-time and without most of the downsides.
- gspencley 4y ago
  > I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career, in my opinion, is not "having the same job for decades." A career is a decision to specialize in a particular craft, trade or profession. The opposite of a career is someone who takes odd jobs. Hospitality one day, transportation the next, might dabble in manufacturing. These jobs pay the bills, and there's nothing wrong with "just" doing that, but they are disconnected jobs; not a career. I consider myself to have a career in software engineering but I have had multiple "jobs" over the decades that have contributed to that career. The career is the knowledge, the experience, the speciality, the reputation, the time spent focusing... all accumulated over my time developing that career. A career could be made by having a single job lasting from graduation until retirement, or it could be a handful of jobs that put to practice and develop the same skillset and knowledge.
  - Avshalom 4y ago
    >> We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career No, that's fair. Like "carpenter" and "programmer" are both very broad professions of course. I think there's something about the way various industries get hit by down turns more or less visibly (like when construction goes down it feels like it's everybody, and so every framer, every concrete layer) that creates an (often false to be sure) sense of narrowness. But also Plumber, Electrician, Carpenter, etc. are very broad trades and even though articles get written using those words because everyone knows what they do, the articles are often really talking about the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers those more niche trades. A lot of machine operators end up so niche that their current company is the only one in a state that could employ them. My sister makes M&Ms, other than company policies about like sanitation she'd be no better than a new hire on the Twix line.
    - chx 4y ago
      > the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers Blame Reagan. Seriously. I am not joking. Blame Reagan. These need to be union jobs. These used to be union jobs. For a more nuanced history read https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/ https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  It's because sticking with the same job is either not rewarding - you're a number, not a valued employee in a lot of jobs - or not feasible. Back in the day you could live a comfortable life off of your 40-odd year job, nowadays the advice given is to change jobs every few years because the increase in wage will outweigh any raises at your current job. Cost of living is going up faster than annual wage increases. Minimum wage in the US hasn't been updated since the 2000's, and if you do get paid minimum wage, it's your employer saying "I'd pay you less if I was allowed to". But a lot of wages will be based on minimum wage, so if that stagnates, so will other wages.
rednerrus 4y ago
This is the reality of all jobs where you work for someone else. You're selling your time, and your body to someone else.
- michaelbuckbee 4y ago
  You're right, but there's a gradient: there's selling your time and then there's selling your time and being in constant pain.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- JacobThreeThree 4y ago
  You can be the owner/operator of the business, and are therefore not working for someone else, but you are nevertheless selling your body.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Sure, but the wear-and-tear on your brain from an office job will always be significantly lower (and thus remain a viable job for much longer) than a job in the figurative or literal trenches.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Sitting in a chair all day is not good for your health long term.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Right, but even when you're in poor health from sitting in a chair all day you can keep sitting in that chair and doing the same work. Whereas if you're a skilled trades worker and break your back by falling off a ladder then you can't work at all. So the downside risk is more severe.
WalterBright 4y ago
I'm not sure how your body parts wear out. Football players ruin their bodies through accumulated injuries, not wearing their bodies out. Do athletes wear their bodies out? I've never heard of that. How does doing plumbing/electricioning wear your body out?
- jorts 4y ago
  Plumbers and electricians contort their body and are moving up and down into cavities of various sizes all day. It definitely takes a toll on you.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Can't be worse than yoga. Edit: Downvote me all you like. I've done yoga, I've done plumbing, I've done electrical. Yoga takes the cake by a mile for most painful contorting. And yet I know an 86 yo woman who has been doing yoga 3 time a week forever and is fit and sharp.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      Huh? Yoga poses are purposeful, they're supposed to be beneficial. Contorting your body all sorts of odd ways while performing a trade is an entirely separate thing from a yoga pose.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Have you ever tried yoga? You might change your mind if you had. It's not a joke.
        jjulius 4y ago
        I've done it many times, even hot yoga. I also have extensive experience wiring up and decommissioning data centers, involving lots of odd contorting. Yoga felt a lot better for me than contorting my body in odd ways.
ffwacom 4y ago
My dad was an electrician his whole life, retired at 65 still going out to job sites.
- 2devnull 4y ago
  If he was union or in an area with a strong union he may not be the one going into crawl spaces and doing more physically damaging work. And electrical is probably the best trade in terms of physical wear and tear, maybe hvac too.
vl 4y ago
But you are doing exactly same stuff as software developer - sitting all day at computer is not healthy for body or mind either.
- gruez 4y ago
  You can mitigate that by taking frequent breaks, and getting a standing desk. How can you mitigate wear to your body while working for the trades?
  - ericd 4y ago
    Frequent breaks, knee pads, using a proper respirator, other ppe? Knee pads make a huge difference for me, at least, and a back brace to encourage proper form when lifting, if I'm doing something that involves a lot of weight.
  - vl 4y ago
    How can you mitigate burn out/mental health issues caused by lack of human interactions and working in the hugely competitive field?
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Stop working from home, go to the office and socialise. Stop comparing yourself to Netflix $900k jobs. Take holidays. Stop side hustling some SaaS app that will never go anywhere. Get a hobby that isn’t focused on making money. HN isn’t the real world.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - happyjack 4y ago
        Ain't this the truth!
    - cpsns 4y ago
      You don't, you do what most of us do and suffer through it, coming out more bitter and broken on the other side. :)
Manuel_D 4y ago
I'm not sure how this squares with the statistics shared in the article that the average (not sure if median or mean) ages of many trades is in the 50s. Evidently they can continue to perform these jobs into middle age and beyond.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  life goes on after you retire mate. many live to 80+

Avshalom 4y ago

>there is a finite end to the career this actually brings to mind something else: I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense so any job that feels too specific also feels like a it'll bite you in the ass in 5 years.

falcolas 4y ago
A good point. I think it's even dead for the over 40 crowd, as they try and slide into a new career which they can work part time and make a living on. Given how questionable retirement as a reality is these days.
- ghaff 4y ago
  In general, reasonably lucrative part-time work for someone coming from a professional role is tricky. And even more so if you really want to have fairly fine-grained control around both weekly workload and longer vacations. Well-paying work that lets you just pick and choose something here and there and then take a month off if you feel like it are pretty uncommon.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    You're 100% not wrong. I think in many cases through it's supplementing insufficient retirement funds, so even a low skill low wage part time job (making/selling art, garden fruits/vegetables, foods, etc) may be sufficient to provide enough runway for existing retirement funds.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Absolutely. And some people also seem to like that some of these jobs provide human interaction. Some of my private car drivers seem in this category. I'm more talking about situations where it's not mostly for the money but rather continuing the things people have enjoyed doing professionally without doing it full-time and without most of the downsides.
gspencley 4y ago
> I think the idea of a career is dead for a lot of the 40 and under set. The idea that you'll have the same job for decades is just nonsense We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career, in my opinion, is not "having the same job for decades." A career is a decision to specialize in a particular craft, trade or profession. The opposite of a career is someone who takes odd jobs. Hospitality one day, transportation the next, might dabble in manufacturing. These jobs pay the bills, and there's nothing wrong with "just" doing that, but they are disconnected jobs; not a career. I consider myself to have a career in software engineering but I have had multiple "jobs" over the decades that have contributed to that career. The career is the knowledge, the experience, the speciality, the reputation, the time spent focusing... all accumulated over my time developing that career. A career could be made by having a single job lasting from graduation until retirement, or it could be a handful of jobs that put to practice and develop the same skillset and knowledge.
- Avshalom 4y ago
  >> We're probably just nit-picking over definitions but a career No, that's fair. Like "carpenter" and "programmer" are both very broad professions of course. I think there's something about the way various industries get hit by down turns more or less visibly (like when construction goes down it feels like it's everybody, and so every framer, every concrete layer) that creates an (often false to be sure) sense of narrowness. But also Plumber, Electrician, Carpenter, etc. are very broad trades and even though articles get written using those words because everyone knows what they do, the articles are often really talking about the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers those more niche trades. A lot of machine operators end up so niche that their current company is the only one in a state that could employ them. My sister makes M&Ms, other than company policies about like sanitation she'd be no better than a new hire on the Twix line.
  - chx 4y ago
    > the lack of elevator technicians, crane operators, industrial HVAC, PLC programmers, train conductors, air traffic controllers Blame Reagan. Seriously. I am not joking. Blame Reagan. These need to be union jobs. These used to be union jobs. For a more nuanced history read https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/ https://wwnorton.com/books/Invisible-Hands/
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
It's because sticking with the same job is either not rewarding - you're a number, not a valued employee in a lot of jobs - or not feasible. Back in the day you could live a comfortable life off of your 40-odd year job, nowadays the advice given is to change jobs every few years because the increase in wage will outweigh any raises at your current job. Cost of living is going up faster than annual wage increases. Minimum wage in the US hasn't been updated since the 2000's, and if you do get paid minimum wage, it's your employer saying "I'd pay you less if I was allowed to". But a lot of wages will be based on minimum wage, so if that stagnates, so will other wages.

rednerrus 4y ago

This is the reality of all jobs where you work for someone else. You're selling your time, and your body to someone else.

michaelbuckbee 4y ago
You're right, but there's a gradient: there's selling your time and then there's selling your time and being in constant pain.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
JacobThreeThree 4y ago
You can be the owner/operator of the business, and are therefore not working for someone else, but you are nevertheless selling your body.
falcolas 4y ago
Sure, but the wear-and-tear on your brain from an office job will always be significantly lower (and thus remain a viable job for much longer) than a job in the figurative or literal trenches.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Sitting in a chair all day is not good for your health long term.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Right, but even when you're in poor health from sitting in a chair all day you can keep sitting in that chair and doing the same work. Whereas if you're a skilled trades worker and break your back by falling off a ladder then you can't work at all. So the downside risk is more severe.

WalterBright 4y ago

I'm not sure how your body parts wear out. Football players ruin their bodies through accumulated injuries, not wearing their bodies out. Do athletes wear their bodies out? I've never heard of that. How does doing plumbing/electricioning wear your body out?

jorts 4y ago
Plumbers and electricians contort their body and are moving up and down into cavities of various sizes all day. It definitely takes a toll on you.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Can't be worse than yoga. Edit: Downvote me all you like. I've done yoga, I've done plumbing, I've done electrical. Yoga takes the cake by a mile for most painful contorting. And yet I know an 86 yo woman who has been doing yoga 3 time a week forever and is fit and sharp.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    Huh? Yoga poses are purposeful, they're supposed to be beneficial. Contorting your body all sorts of odd ways while performing a trade is an entirely separate thing from a yoga pose.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Have you ever tried yoga? You might change your mind if you had. It's not a joke.
      - jjulius 4y ago
        I've done it many times, even hot yoga. I also have extensive experience wiring up and decommissioning data centers, involving lots of odd contorting. Yoga felt a lot better for me than contorting my body in odd ways.

ffwacom 4y ago

My dad was an electrician his whole life, retired at 65 still going out to job sites.

2devnull 4y ago
If he was union or in an area with a strong union he may not be the one going into crawl spaces and doing more physically damaging work. And electrical is probably the best trade in terms of physical wear and tear, maybe hvac too.

vl 4y ago

But you are doing exactly same stuff as software developer - sitting all day at computer is not healthy for body or mind either.

gruez 4y ago
You can mitigate that by taking frequent breaks, and getting a standing desk. How can you mitigate wear to your body while working for the trades?
- ericd 4y ago
  Frequent breaks, knee pads, using a proper respirator, other ppe? Knee pads make a huge difference for me, at least, and a back brace to encourage proper form when lifting, if I'm doing something that involves a lot of weight.
- vl 4y ago
  How can you mitigate burn out/mental health issues caused by lack of human interactions and working in the hugely competitive field?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Stop working from home, go to the office and socialise. Stop comparing yourself to Netflix $900k jobs. Take holidays. Stop side hustling some SaaS app that will never go anywhere. Get a hobby that isn’t focused on making money. HN isn’t the real world.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - happyjack 4y ago
      Ain't this the truth!
  - cpsns 4y ago
    You don't, you do what most of us do and suffer through it, coming out more bitter and broken on the other side. :)

Manuel_D 4y ago

I'm not sure how this squares with the statistics shared in the article that the average (not sure if median or mean) ages of many trades is in the 50s. Evidently they can continue to perform these jobs into middle age and beyond.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
life goes on after you retire mate. many live to 80+