8 ms·

Have you ever worked in a company with a union? Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything

Have you ever worked in a company with a union? Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies. Unions are effectively a corporation running labor. So you go from working for the company to working for your union rep. They then pimp you out and get kick backs. Wanna leave your job for another company or role? Good luck, you drop in seniority and will have your hours and pay cut. When layoffs come, the highest rank in the union decides who gets cut. His golf buddies obviously keep their jobs. Then you end up like GE or Boeing in a zombie company. Poor management, poor senior engineers, and good, but underpaid low level engineers. That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved.

dmitriid 4y ago
Or you end up like Europe. With long maternity leave, paid sick days, overtime pay etc.
- maxehmookau 4y ago
  Posts about unions on HN always skew towards negativity because in the US, unions are seen as bad. (Well done corporate america for that PR coup!) They often can't see the benefits, which are often large and numerous.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Unions in the US are bad, in large part because of laws written to force things that way. Unions in Europe work different, but we legally cannot have that type of union so there is no point in discussing how unions don't have to be bad.
    - maxehmookau 4y ago
      That's not a fair generalisation IMO. Most notably, moves to unionise workers at large retail companies in the US such as Amazon can only be a good thing. Some are bad, sure. Some unions here in the UK are bad too, but the general principle that unions work to protect workers is indisputable.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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- satvikpendem 4y ago
  And much lower wages, no?
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    What good is a high wage when you either don't have the time to use it (crazy working ours/short vacations) or still need to spend it on things like medical care? Not everyone works at Facebook or Google. A friend of mine works as a data analyst somewhere near Washington, D.C. They still need to spend a week arguing with insurance companies for any medical emergency. Yeah, thanks, no. Keep your higher wage.
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      Not sure about your friend but people generally get good healthcare as professionals. And anyway, that should not be the argument either way, universal healthcare is what one should strive towards, which has nothing to do with union or non-union membership. > Yeah, thanks, no. Keep your higher wage. Thank you, I will.
cool_dude85 4y ago
I work in a white collar union in the US and this has not been my experience at all. I don't "work for my union rep", the "highest rank in the union" wouldn't decide what happens in case of layoffs, very little is based on seniority. Sounds like you have a very warped idea of what union work is like.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It's been my experience that seniority does play a role in unions, although it does vary depending on the job. Usually it's first dibs on some benefit, like OT or time off around holidays.
- aapl88889 4y ago
  This is untrue. I've worked in union shops and work and pay there are very much based on seniority
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority
  - triceratops 4y ago
    Are you not familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild?
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Screen Actors Guild is not a traditional employment union in that your membership to SAG is not tied to your employment with given corporation. Members agree to only work with companies that have a contract with the Guild, and most members are "hired" by companies as contractors or via "loan out" companies or other such things not as w2 employees. This makes the makeup, laws, and conditions of a SAG contract FAR FAR FAR different then what is being talked about here
mschuster91 4y ago
> That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved. Informal organization (i.e. without the legal protections that formal unions have) only works in industries where the staff isn't fungible. A warehouse, fastfood chain or a lot of IT industry has the advantage for the employer that the staff is fungible. Fire everyone, pay a bit in fines for anti-union activities, and hire fresh staff that won't unionize because they know what happened to the last ones.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Unions work best when the people need some amount of training such that you can't just hire new people, but otherwise they are inter-changeable. If you work an assembly line your pace of work is dictated by the slowest station/worker, no matter how good you are at your job you are not better than anyone else. Tech work there are ways you can be better than someone else and so unions don't work as well. (don't confuse with don't work at all, just that they don't work as well because we are not all in it together)
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > just that they don't work as well because we are not all in it together It's one thing to say that in tech people can have different performance levels. But stuff like PTO, actually meaningful sick leave, maternity/paternity leave, retirement benefits, healthcare, workplace safety, overtime work, using people for work they have not been hired, equipped or training for - there everyone is in the same boat, but tech's aversity to unions has an effect like the infamous "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Even wages... it's not "just" performance levels that dictate these. Unions also serve for those who are not as conflict-happy or those who cannot negotiate due to external factors (e.g. visa enslavement, they have family to take care of and can't afford the potential of being out of work for a couple weeks while they set up new employment)... unions sacrifice a bit of individual wealth for common wealth for everyone.
greenhorn360 4y ago
You're making an irrelevant comparison. Rail worker unions are unique and governed by the Railway Labor Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act
modo_mario 4y ago
I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Here in Belgium we have some industry specific unions like for rail (idk how the government in the US forces em to do anything). But most unions are cross industry. They aren't really noticed when working in the context of a specific company too often unless mediation is needed when big lay-offs and shutdowns are happening at big companies or there's safety stuff involved or other such work condition things. They don't really dabble seniority, performance metrics and wages tied to that as far as i'm aware. Whilst they're generally not involved in keeping individuals employed at particular companies they do offer legal services if your company illegally fucks you over or for checking employment contracts or the like, push for huge once in a blue moon strikes if the government considers touching our wage indexation too much. etc. They are also mostly politically aligned so we have left, liberal, Christian democrat, Flemish nationalist, independent, etc unions essentially competing against each other. Their membership is really cheap probably as a consequence of that.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Looking to European models would be great. But the current American union structure is written into federal statute, and there is approximately zero chance of the statute ever being amended.
  - lettergram 4y ago
    > Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean that might be fine, but that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. American unions definitely have their issues. That’s mostly where I’m coming from. But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective.
susanasj 4y ago
this is close to just straight up misinformation, but I'll point out the fundamental difference that you are ignoring in your analogy. You pay your union rep (via dues). It's not that you work for your union rep, it's that they work for you, just like you work for your company.
- js8 4y ago
  Also, aren't unions in the U.S. democratic in the sense that the union members elect their reps? AFAIK you don't vote for company management, so that's another power differential.
TheBigSalad 4y ago
"Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies." I'm sure the US government is going to step in at some point and force Activision to make a new CoD.
tored 4y ago
I think the problem here is that US lacks a larger framework how unions and employers should solve differences. Sweden enacted in 1938 (Saltsjöbadsavtalet) a treaty where unions, employers and the government came to an agreement that agreements between unions and employers should be done without government interference. Instead of conflict try instead to find common ground where both parties benefits. It is of course far from perfect, but I think it is still better than the alternative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement
la64710 4y ago
[flagged]
vsareto 4y ago
None of these downsides are really much different than just being an employee, except without the union, you have lower pay and benefits.
SinParadise 4y ago
The railroad worker is not representative of the average union. It is an extreme outlier.

dmitriid 4y ago

Or you end up like Europe. With long maternity leave, paid sick days, overtime pay etc.

maxehmookau 4y ago
Posts about unions on HN always skew towards negativity because in the US, unions are seen as bad. (Well done corporate america for that PR coup!) They often can't see the benefits, which are often large and numerous.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Unions in the US are bad, in large part because of laws written to force things that way. Unions in Europe work different, but we legally cannot have that type of union so there is no point in discussing how unions don't have to be bad.
  - maxehmookau 4y ago
    That's not a fair generalisation IMO. Most notably, moves to unionise workers at large retail companies in the US such as Amazon can only be a good thing. Some are bad, sure. Some unions here in the UK are bad too, but the general principle that unions work to protect workers is indisputable.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
satvikpendem 4y ago
And much lower wages, no?
- dmitriid 4y ago
  What good is a high wage when you either don't have the time to use it (crazy working ours/short vacations) or still need to spend it on things like medical care? Not everyone works at Facebook or Google. A friend of mine works as a data analyst somewhere near Washington, D.C. They still need to spend a week arguing with insurance companies for any medical emergency. Yeah, thanks, no. Keep your higher wage.
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    Not sure about your friend but people generally get good healthcare as professionals. And anyway, that should not be the argument either way, universal healthcare is what one should strive towards, which has nothing to do with union or non-union membership. > Yeah, thanks, no. Keep your higher wage. Thank you, I will.

cool_dude85 4y ago

I work in a white collar union in the US and this has not been my experience at all. I don't "work for my union rep", the "highest rank in the union" wouldn't decide what happens in case of layoffs, very little is based on seniority. Sounds like you have a very warped idea of what union work is like.

giantg2 4y ago
It's been my experience that seniority does play a role in unions, although it does vary depending on the job. Usually it's first dibs on some benefit, like OT or time off around holidays.
aapl88889 4y ago
This is untrue. I've worked in union shops and work and pay there are very much based on seniority
phpisthebest 4y ago
I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority
- triceratops 4y ago
  Are you not familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild?
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Screen Actors Guild is not a traditional employment union in that your membership to SAG is not tied to your employment with given corporation. Members agree to only work with companies that have a contract with the Guild, and most members are "hired" by companies as contractors or via "loan out" companies or other such things not as w2 employees. This makes the makeup, laws, and conditions of a SAG contract FAR FAR FAR different then what is being talked about here

mschuster91 4y ago

> That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved. Informal organization (i.e. without the legal protections that formal unions have) only works in industries where the staff isn't fungible. A warehouse, fastfood chain or a lot of IT industry has the advantage for the employer that the staff is fungible. Fire everyone, pay a bit in fines for anti-union activities, and hire fresh staff that won't unionize because they know what happened to the last ones.

bluGill 4y ago
Unions work best when the people need some amount of training such that you can't just hire new people, but otherwise they are inter-changeable. If you work an assembly line your pace of work is dictated by the slowest station/worker, no matter how good you are at your job you are not better than anyone else. Tech work there are ways you can be better than someone else and so unions don't work as well. (don't confuse with don't work at all, just that they don't work as well because we are not all in it together)
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > just that they don't work as well because we are not all in it together It's one thing to say that in tech people can have different performance levels. But stuff like PTO, actually meaningful sick leave, maternity/paternity leave, retirement benefits, healthcare, workplace safety, overtime work, using people for work they have not been hired, equipped or training for - there everyone is in the same boat, but tech's aversity to unions has an effect like the infamous "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Even wages... it's not "just" performance levels that dictate these. Unions also serve for those who are not as conflict-happy or those who cannot negotiate due to external factors (e.g. visa enslavement, they have family to take care of and can't afford the potential of being out of work for a couple weeks while they set up new employment)... unions sacrifice a bit of individual wealth for common wealth for everyone.

greenhorn360 4y ago

You're making an irrelevant comparison. Rail worker unions are unique and governed by the Railway Labor Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act

modo_mario 4y ago

I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Here in Belgium we have some industry specific unions like for rail (idk how the government in the US forces em to do anything). But most unions are cross industry. They aren't really noticed when working in the context of a specific company too often unless mediation is needed when big lay-offs and shutdowns are happening at big companies or there's safety stuff involved or other such work condition things. They don't really dabble seniority, performance metrics and wages tied to that as far as i'm aware. Whilst they're generally not involved in keeping individuals employed at particular companies they do offer legal services if your company illegally fucks you over or for checking employment contracts or the like, push for huge once in a blue moon strikes if the government considers touching our wage indexation too much. etc. They are also mostly politically aligned so we have left, liberal, Christian democrat, Flemish nationalist, independent, etc unions essentially competing against each other. Their membership is really cheap probably as a consequence of that.

rayiner 4y ago
> I find it weird that nobody in the US seems to look beyond their country or similar systems for different models regarding this. Looking to European models would be great. But the current American union structure is written into federal statute, and there is approximately zero chance of the statute ever being amended.
- lettergram 4y ago
  > Looking to European models would be great. Europeans on average earn half of Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_terr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_b... Software engineers make 4x or more their European counterparts If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Is it time off it optimized for? I mean that might be fine, but that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. American unions definitely have their issues. That’s mostly where I’m coming from. But even European ones, from the data (I’ve never experienced one), doesn’t seem effective.

susanasj 4y ago

this is close to just straight up misinformation, but I'll point out the fundamental difference that you are ignoring in your analogy. You pay your union rep (via dues). It's not that you work for your union rep, it's that they work for you, just like you work for your company.

js8 4y ago
Also, aren't unions in the U.S. democratic in the sense that the union members elect their reps? AFAIK you don't vote for company management, so that's another power differential.

TheBigSalad 4y ago

"Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies." I'm sure the US government is going to step in at some point and force Activision to make a new CoD.

tored 4y ago

I think the problem here is that US lacks a larger framework how unions and employers should solve differences. Sweden enacted in 1938 (Saltsjöbadsavtalet) a treaty where unions, employers and the government came to an agreement that agreements between unions and employers should be done without government interference. Instead of conflict try instead to find common ground where both parties benefits. It is of course far from perfect, but I think it is still better than the alternative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement

la64710 4y ago

[flagged]

vsareto 4y ago

None of these downsides are really much different than just being an employee, except without the union, you have lower pay and benefits.

SinParadise 4y ago

The railroad worker is not representative of the average union. It is an extreme outlier.