4 ms·

After really looking into this for my own home, I think there is some marketing BS involved. "Efficiency" is an inflated metric, it gets to a certain temperatu

After really looking into this for my own home, I think there is some marketing BS involved. "Efficiency" is an inflated metric, it gets to a certain temperature a heat pump is going to be the equivalent of electric heat, purely expending energy to heat things up. Additionally, they have to be constantly on and cycling so they don't break the colder it gets. A gas furnace can be fired up almost in any temperature and is still very efficient. Not to mention that efficiency doesn't really tie to how exorbitantly expensive it is to run heat pumps, you're looking at +$500-800 month in extra electricity costs in some places.

hijinks 4y ago
I had a home in the CO mountains at 10k feet above sea level. I was looking at heat pumps since the house was electric baseboard and running a gas line was gonna cost $18k just for the line to the home. I decided on heat pumps and was lucky enough to find a reseller of Mitsubishi who mentioned his contacts there were looking for a cold climate home in elevation that wanted heat pumps to prove their tech. Long story short, I put in heat pumps at a fraction of the cost of what it would normally cost. Now the benefit of the mountains as opposed to Denver is it rarely gets below 0 even if Denver is -15 the mountain low might be -5ish. Yes efficiency goes down the colder it gets but when I owned the home I never had to supplement the heat pumps to keep the house warm. It would pull 120F heat when it was -5 out. Again when its -5 natural gas is a lot more efficient but the idea is its not -5 all year. The first year I had them my electric bill averaged $650ish to $310. Also I got AC in the summer as a bonus.
- bfeynman 4y ago
  There are a lot of factors involved here, sounds like you might've had a coalescence of fortuitous ones. I would not consider getting off shot freebie as the standard input cost. Also I'm assuming your home is already well insulated like most homes in places with more serious winters. But the average house and older homes especially (in northeast esp) have poorer insulation. Heat pumps are still very expensive and for many need backup for extreme weather or require major inconvenience. Not to mention how expensive electricity is, and the fact that it's getting more expensive.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > But the average house and older homes especially (in northeast esp) have poorer insulation. insulation always pays for itself multiple times over. Why is rhere no financial oroduct like mortgage that wouldballow you to direct the energy saving from extra insulation into repaying installation cost ay favoirable tax-free terms and low interrest rate like mortgage?
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      There are, in fact perhaps a bit too much, it has resulted in lots of insulation and heat pump scams lately (though perhaps not enough enforcement ?) See also how the real estate sector was whining in the recent years about the (quite mild !) new insulation laws, seemingly only caring about their short term profits. Well, hopefully they have shut up now (or maybe not, with, now that we ARE in the predicted crisis, serious laws coming up, and at the same time, the real estate bubble popping).
      - bfeynman 4y ago
        It's going to get worse now because the fed govt has a rebate to install heat pumps, I'd expect the same treatment people get for solar to come to that now, lots of companies cold calling trying to sell more of a financial instrument than actual product. I was really looking into one, and it was impractical due to weather but also not many local contractors were trained and servicing them, I expect more grifter types to pick it up.
    - bfeynman 4y ago
      That does sound like something places should offer. I know some ESCOs and providers offer like free thermal imaging of your home. While insulation is relatively cheap, often the worst culprits are poorly insulated windows and any penetrations to exterior. Those are much more expensive, window replacement can easily run 20k.
    - nradov 4y ago
      You can use a HELOC for insulation upgrades, just like any other home improvement project.
- rmcpherson 4y ago
  I’m surprised you needed AC at 10k ft. I have a cabin south of FairPlay at 9200 ft and the high temperature for the year has never exceeded 81 F. Good to hear on the heat pumps though. I’m planning to eventually replace the propane boiler with them.
  - hijinks 4y ago
    So the home is southern facing and was full of windows on the southern side. So even with windows open/shades down the heat from the sun would still radiate in. When I bought the home I had a company come to help me plan the heating and I don't fully understand the science but the home is built to keep heat in with the windows and no attic.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  I'm confused, are all your temperatures in Celsius except the 120F (~50°C). I assumed the -5 was -5°C but the use of F later suggests it could be -20°C.
  - hijinks 4y ago
    all the temps are in F. The hyper heat can pull 120Fish heat down to -15F
adev_ 4y ago
> Not to mention that efficiency doesn't really tie to how exorbitantly expensive it is to run heat pumps, you're looking at +$500-800 month in extra electricity costs in some places. You might be an order of magnitude higher than reality here. I do live in the French Alps (relatively cold) in a 160m2 house warmed with an heat pump. My bill is around 600-800€ per year, not per month. My house is from the 1970s with an average insulation from the 80s I do not see how you can get 600-800$ per month, excepted if you do live in a -25˚C climate and in a house insulated with a sheet of paper. But then you will probably get an even worst bill with a gas boiler.
- kilotaras 4y ago
  > But then you will probably get an even worst bill with a gas boiler Quick google shows that electicity in France[0] costs roughly 1.6x more than natgas. For Washington State this ratio is around 2.45x. Eyeballing this graph[2] that corresponds to breakeven outside temperature of <-20℃ and -8℃ respectively for 40℃ output (~-18℃ and 0℃ for 50℃). [0] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/France/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/France/ [1] https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyprices_seattle.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyp... [2] https://support.sefaira.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000249971-Air-to-Water-Heat-Pumps-Explained https://support.sefaira.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000249971-A... -> scroll down roughly 2/3.
  - adev_ 4y ago
    > Eyeballing this graph[2] that corresponds to breakeven outside temperature of <-20℃ and -8℃ respectively for 40℃ output (~-18℃ and 0℃ for 50℃). Interesting perspective, thank you. Considering that the average winter temperature in Seattle (Washington) is around 3-4˚C [1], it is far over the breakeven. It is even more true in my case: my system is is a water-water geothermal type. They do maintain maximum COP (4-5) and maximum power independently of the outside temperature. They are perfect for cold climate. For the little side story: My heatpump has been installed in 1987 by the previous owner of the house and I believe he was truly a visionary. Nobody was talking or even speaking about heat pump at that time. From his own words: people of the neighbourhood took him for a mad-man when he said in the 80s he would warm his house with the cold water from the river. Facts are that his system is still running 35 years later and provided a cheap, reliable and low carbon source of heating for over 3 decades. [1]: https://weatherspark.com/s/913/3/Average-Winter-Weather-in-Seattle-Washington-United-States https://weatherspark.com/s/913/3/Average-Winter-Weather-in-S...

hijinks 4y ago

I had a home in the CO mountains at 10k feet above sea level. I was looking at heat pumps since the house was electric baseboard and running a gas line was gonna cost $18k just for the line to the home. I decided on heat pumps and was lucky enough to find a reseller of Mitsubishi who mentioned his contacts there were looking for a cold climate home in elevation that wanted heat pumps to prove their tech. Long story short, I put in heat pumps at a fraction of the cost of what it would normally cost. Now the benefit of the mountains as opposed to Denver is it rarely gets below 0 even if Denver is -15 the mountain low might be -5ish. Yes efficiency goes down the colder it gets but when I owned the home I never had to supplement the heat pumps to keep the house warm. It would pull 120F heat when it was -5 out. Again when its -5 natural gas is a lot more efficient but the idea is its not -5 all year. The first year I had them my electric bill averaged $650ish to $310. Also I got AC in the summer as a bonus.

bfeynman 4y ago
There are a lot of factors involved here, sounds like you might've had a coalescence of fortuitous ones. I would not consider getting off shot freebie as the standard input cost. Also I'm assuming your home is already well insulated like most homes in places with more serious winters. But the average house and older homes especially (in northeast esp) have poorer insulation. Heat pumps are still very expensive and for many need backup for extreme weather or require major inconvenience. Not to mention how expensive electricity is, and the fact that it's getting more expensive.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > But the average house and older homes especially (in northeast esp) have poorer insulation. insulation always pays for itself multiple times over. Why is rhere no financial oroduct like mortgage that wouldballow you to direct the energy saving from extra insulation into repaying installation cost ay favoirable tax-free terms and low interrest rate like mortgage?
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    There are, in fact perhaps a bit too much, it has resulted in lots of insulation and heat pump scams lately (though perhaps not enough enforcement ?) See also how the real estate sector was whining in the recent years about the (quite mild !) new insulation laws, seemingly only caring about their short term profits. Well, hopefully they have shut up now (or maybe not, with, now that we ARE in the predicted crisis, serious laws coming up, and at the same time, the real estate bubble popping).
    - bfeynman 4y ago
      It's going to get worse now because the fed govt has a rebate to install heat pumps, I'd expect the same treatment people get for solar to come to that now, lots of companies cold calling trying to sell more of a financial instrument than actual product. I was really looking into one, and it was impractical due to weather but also not many local contractors were trained and servicing them, I expect more grifter types to pick it up.
  - bfeynman 4y ago
    That does sound like something places should offer. I know some ESCOs and providers offer like free thermal imaging of your home. While insulation is relatively cheap, often the worst culprits are poorly insulated windows and any penetrations to exterior. Those are much more expensive, window replacement can easily run 20k.
  - nradov 4y ago
    You can use a HELOC for insulation upgrades, just like any other home improvement project.
rmcpherson 4y ago
I’m surprised you needed AC at 10k ft. I have a cabin south of FairPlay at 9200 ft and the high temperature for the year has never exceeded 81 F. Good to hear on the heat pumps though. I’m planning to eventually replace the propane boiler with them.
- hijinks 4y ago
  So the home is southern facing and was full of windows on the southern side. So even with windows open/shades down the heat from the sun would still radiate in. When I bought the home I had a company come to help me plan the heating and I don't fully understand the science but the home is built to keep heat in with the windows and no attic.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
I'm confused, are all your temperatures in Celsius except the 120F (~50°C). I assumed the -5 was -5°C but the use of F later suggests it could be -20°C.
- hijinks 4y ago
  all the temps are in F. The hyper heat can pull 120Fish heat down to -15F

adev_ 4y ago

> Not to mention that efficiency doesn't really tie to how exorbitantly expensive it is to run heat pumps, you're looking at +$500-800 month in extra electricity costs in some places. You might be an order of magnitude higher than reality here. I do live in the French Alps (relatively cold) in a 160m2 house warmed with an heat pump. My bill is around 600-800€ per year, not per month. My house is from the 1970s with an average insulation from the 80s I do not see how you can get 600-800$ per month, excepted if you do live in a -25˚C climate and in a house insulated with a sheet of paper. But then you will probably get an even worst bill with a gas boiler.

kilotaras 4y ago
> But then you will probably get an even worst bill with a gas boiler Quick google shows that electicity in France[0] costs roughly 1.6x more than natgas. For Washington State this ratio is around 2.45x. Eyeballing this graph[2] that corresponds to breakeven outside temperature of <-20℃ and -8℃ respectively for 40℃ output (~-18℃ and 0℃ for 50℃). [0] https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/France/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/France/ [1] https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyprices_seattle.htm https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyp... [2] https://support.sefaira.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000249971-Air-to-Water-Heat-Pumps-Explained https://support.sefaira.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000249971-A... -> scroll down roughly 2/3.
- adev_ 4y ago
  > Eyeballing this graph[2] that corresponds to breakeven outside temperature of <-20℃ and -8℃ respectively for 40℃ output (~-18℃ and 0℃ for 50℃). Interesting perspective, thank you. Considering that the average winter temperature in Seattle (Washington) is around 3-4˚C [1], it is far over the breakeven. It is even more true in my case: my system is is a water-water geothermal type. They do maintain maximum COP (4-5) and maximum power independently of the outside temperature. They are perfect for cold climate. For the little side story: My heatpump has been installed in 1987 by the previous owner of the house and I believe he was truly a visionary. Nobody was talking or even speaking about heat pump at that time. From his own words: people of the neighbourhood took him for a mad-man when he said in the 80s he would warm his house with the cold water from the river. Facts are that his system is still running 35 years later and provided a cheap, reliable and low carbon source of heating for over 3 decades. [1]: https://weatherspark.com/s/913/3/Average-Winter-Weather-in-Seattle-Washington-United-States https://weatherspark.com/s/913/3/Average-Winter-Weather-in-S...