8 ms·

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent that isn't a woman. Meetups are still called "New Mums Groups", you get shifty looks at playgrounds, playspaces etc., endless questions about what it is that you do. Even the people trying to be positive end up being somewhat patronising ("oh are you babysitting today!"). Anyway, point is, true equality would mean that it's absolutely fine for a man to stay at home and raise a family while the woman is the breadwinner. We're not there and that hurts both men and women.

javajosh 4y ago
The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation that it deserves. As for the rest of your post, absolutely. I love being a dad and it's a shame that our society doesn't seem to care much about father's apart from being a provider of money. Every man should be aware that if things go south and their marriage that their children could be taken away from them and they will be vilified if they try to get them back. You will not get sympathy from your friends or family or from the public at large. He will be fighting the tide.
- afavour 4y ago
  > The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm conflicted about that. Not denying that what you've said is true but I specifically chose the term "red pilled" because there are huge toxic (predominantly online) communities that are openly misogynistic. e.g. in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Some of the frustration there is justified (family law definitely seems biased against fathers) but the result is not positive. I'd also add: a lot of this societal pressure against men being accepted as stay at home parents comes from men.
  - LightHugger 4y ago
    Just like how a lot of the societal pressure causing womens issues comes from women. There's no difference between genders in this aspect. Though for some reason, i see some feminists trying to blame men exclusively for men's problems. I have never seen a man blaming women for all women's issues the same way.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - ponow 4y ago
        Bull.
        mschuster91 4y ago
        Do you have factual information backing your statement? I have, to take the two dominant Christian fundamentalist interpretations: - for Mormonism: "Numerous Prophets have instructed that a Mormon woman’s place is in the home. Only Federal anti-discrimination laws, which the Church vigorously opposed, and the threat of Federal prosecution, forced the Church in 1970s to stop terminating female employment upon the birth of her first child. While no longer as clearly directed from the pulpit, a women’s place in Mormonism remains very different than that of a man. Even into the 1980s, President Kimball reiterated that “…a mother’s place is in the home!” The idea of complementary spheres for men and women rules Mormon doctrine and is the answer to almost every question about the lack of power for women in the church." [1] - for the Southern Baptists: "A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation." [2] This is what these religions teach about women, there is no denying or whitewashing that. [1] https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/women-in-mormonism/ https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/wo... [2] https://bfm.sbc.net/bfm2000/report-of-the-baptist-faith-and-message-study-committee-on-article-xviii/ https://bfm.sbc.net/bfm2000/report-of-the-baptist-faith-and-...
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Sharing my thoughts, a recent idiom I ran across that I increasingly find useful in situations like this is "two things can be true at once." There can be people who are extremely misogynistic - but they can also have completely valid concerns and grievances that make them feel that way. "They might be idiots at best, but they might have decent reasons why they got there." Just ask any dad who has lost his children, wife, and property to an actually-false claim of domestic abuse. Ignoring those grievances, under the hope of trying to avoid giving them any respect, I believe risks actually increasing the number of misogynists because it doesn't address the underlying hurt that many of them may be experiencing, or the cause that will keep repeating itself.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    A similar thought I find helpful to internalize is that "hurt people hurt other people". That is to say, many victims are themselves assholes and abusive. It is important to remember that fair justice should be extended to all people, independence of their individual moral or sympathetic valence. It cuts both ways. Despicable people deserve a fair treatment, and victims themselves must be held accountable for their actions.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  > The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I must be living under a rock then — this Zeitgeist you talk of is alien to me. I am a male who does not feel in any way dehumanized, nor have any of my male friends expressed as much.
  - bobkazamakis 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - broken_mind 4y ago
    Good for you! I've never noticed this thing so it doesn't exist. Pure and simple internalized misandry.
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Doesn't exist. Zeitgeist. There's a pretty broad strata between those two.
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  I had the same reaction to his first sentence. Why do you need to say that?
  - draw_down 4y ago
    [dead]
fullshark 4y ago
I think this book is probably more about men who aren't working and are instead doing nothing productive. Raising children wouldn't count.
- afavour 4y ago
  Yeah I was kind of “yes, and”-ing the book topic. Women being out of work isn’t seen as such a crisis because so many are actually “working raising families. My point is that the same opportunity ought to be available to men, too.
- ponow 4y ago
  It does if you got a serious education that goes woefully underutilized.
  - fullshark 4y ago
    I don't know, I have a "serious" education and using it to help a corporation make a little bit more money doesn't really seem that much more valuable than raising my kid. The opportunity cost for many with serious educations is maybe not that high.
dbingham 4y ago
Yeah, this is real. Men still tend to get erased from the parental equation to a large degree. And this doesn't just affect stay at home dads. Much of the dialog around pregnancy loss and childloss seems to forget that there's often a father involved as well, and that the loss impacts both parents. When we lost our first child to a still birth, people would often focus entirely on my wife when offering sympathy and comfort. The assumption was often that I was supporting her through the loss, not that I was also someone experiencing the loss who needed support. This is problematic on multiple levels, but on a very basic level it just made it that much harder for me to grieve the loss and made me feel erased. That said, I don't think it makes sense to connect the issues surrounding the ways in which men and women are still gendered in society, our resulting assumptions, and the harm they do with this particular problem. Because I think this particular problem affects both men and women, though with perhaps some differences in affect that are worth calling out because of the aforementioned gender roles and assumptions. I haven't read the referenced book, but I would separate this problem from the one described in the book. I think we're reinforcing those stereotypes when we frame the general problem of "people not having work" as being specific to men. Even beyond that, I would challenge the whole notion that people need to be included in the workforce. I think we're framing the problem wrong when we look at it that way. People need to be economically secure, they need to have deep connection to communities, and they need to have something meaningful to do with their time. Right now, many people only get those things from work. This is true of both men and women, plenty of women talk about loss of identity and struggle finding community when they become stay at home parents. So I would argue that the book is taking the wrong framing - both in focusing on men and in taking the wrong assumptions, or perhaps, the wrong ordering.
- garettmd 4y ago
  I remember during most interactions with healthcare providers during my wife and I's pregnancies, hardly anyone ever talked to me, sometimes never even looking at me. I get it, I'm not the one carrying a baby to term, but I would have thought the fact that I was showing up to all these appointments, staying by my wife's side, taking part in decisions, and supporting her and the baby through the whole thing would have granted me a bit of acknowledgement of my role and investment in the whole process. But many times people acted like I wasn't even there. I can't imagine having to deal with that dynamic with what you went through, and am so sorry for your loss.
williamdclt 4y ago
For the record, I agree with you and your argument is aligned with everybody I know who consider themselves feminists. It's part of what's meant by the now-memesque "patriarchy hurts everyone".
steve_adams_86 4y ago
I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffers. How can they win? At least men have a clear expectation from society. In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work. We have a serious problem here. It doesn’t strike me as a problem of gender roles so much as cultural priorities (perhaps at the core of this is the pursuit of wealth and growth over focusing on family). I was as capable as my wife in caring for our son so that wasn’t a problem. The problem was that anyone ever saw something wrong with that picture, I suppose. We also took an enormous financial hit in order for her to continue working, because there was a very real concern than her career would suffer beyond repair if she took off, but I’d presumably be able to return fairly easily with my decade or so of software development experience. This happily turned out to be true. But still, what a strange situation to have to navigate.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  This could somewhat be solved by regulation You get around 1 year of parental leave here in my country - it starts 28 days before expected birth for the mother and lasts for 105 days, the father also gets 30 days, but 15 have to be used during the parental leave, and the other 15 in the next few years. After the 105 days of "mothers leave" are over, both parents get 260 days to divide between themselves however they want). The norm is for the mother to take the full 260 days, and the father goes to work. On one hand, fathers complain because they're not with their kids, on the other side, usually feminists complain about women losing a year of their carrers (because women still have a choice to go to work and let the dad use those 260 days), and hiring a could-be-soon-pregnant woman is a risk, because she might be gone for a year. If we atleast split the 260 evenly, and made it mandatory for both parents to be atleast a bit more equally absent from work, that would solve a lot... but since women would lose the 260 day, and there's no money for both parents to be absent from work, this won't ever be implemented.
- beyond_based 4y ago
licebmi__at__ 4y ago
I’m still surprised that people are aware of the drawbacks that a patriarcal society with strong gender division where those who don’t conform are usually punished, and somehow identify with “redpilled antifeminists” who want a traditional society and attack the group which historically has been criticizing and questioning gendered roles.
hollywood_court 4y ago
Being a stay at home parent is certainly a lot of work. I did it for a while until my son started pre-k. However his school follows the schedule of the local university so it’s just been he and I for the past 3 weeks during the holidays and for 2 weeks recently before that during Thanksgiving break. We quickly fell back into our same routine of taking walks and working on his reading and writing. But I am definitely familiar with the questions from the mothers at the playground or the fitness class he attends. I just tell them that I was fortunate enough to retire at 40 and I’m presently trying to reinvent myself as a web developer.
- ponow 4y ago
  I barely talked to any of them after some of these exchanges. I refuse to explain myself.
nimbius 4y ago
a lot of this, at least in the united states, is due to a deep-seated dichotomy of heteronormative gender roles in suburban life. new mums groups have learned to be welcoming, but not inclusive to newcomers and that may largely be due to puritanical influences present in a lot of the cultures that oversee these groups. one could go so far as to say such patronisation and strict gender conformity serve to ostracize and secure the old-guard from ever encroaching threat of feminism or change. As a diesel mechanic in the midwest, I can say the decline in men that have work could be a couple of factors. First, we decided 30 years ago everyone had to go to college, and in doing so found most degrees hardly worth the paper they were printed on while landed gentry reaped the windfall of college loan income. conversely tradecraft like welding, carpentry, HVAC, engine repair, and plumbing fell by the wayside with many of these crafts given a scarlet letter and left to beg and plead for any help whatsoever. there is still plenty of work, its just been made obscure and wicked by a hand that cant reap any lending profit from it. second, militant drug testing and background checks have created an artificial scarcity. Do i need a sober person to run a drill press? certainly, but if that person spent a little time in jail for cannabis possession i dont care. Viewing potential employees as potential liabilities has in turn created a culture of calvinist jackboots that only hire the most visibly noble --if not technically bereft-- to fill their ranks.
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  I used to tell kids to go to college, and was unhappy if they did not go. Now I tell them they need a career. You need a skill people will pay for, or your life will suck. I'm in IT and most of skills come from a 2 year local degree, so it's college, but. It was very skills based. It was a career. Tell kids to get a career.
- microtherion 4y ago
  I believe (and that's hardly an original observation) that some of the problems in the US trades based professions stem from their lack of non-academic credentials systems. In e.g. Germany or Switzerland, your pot smoking drill press operator could point to a four year apprenticeship, and possibly even advanced specializations beyond that, with hundreds of recognized professional tracks. In the US, professional skills seem to be acquired somewhat more randomly, and consequently, are less portable.
mfer 4y ago
Two big things stick out in all of this to me... 1) There's the idea that one parent does not work for a company. This is hard for a lot of men and women to handle. A lot is put into the idea that adults need to be part of the economic productivity cycle or you're failing. Stay at home dad's are looked down on by others a lot due to this. It happens to many stay at home mom's, too. Think about it. If both parents work they make more so they can consume more. That means more money for share holders and companies. > what it is that you do This assumes that the important thing to do is something related to companies and the economy. It's unsaid but assumed without most realizing it. 2) We have an idea that women can do anything men can. That women can step into traditional mens spaces. But, the opposite isn't true. That men can step into traditional womens spaces. It's a double standard. It's not said but it's thought. Even when people don't realize it.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << A lot is put into the idea that adults need to be part of the economic productivity cycle or you're failing. Yes and no, I think. I agree in abstract, because I am sure it is a factor, but I will give my personal anecdata. Covid was a stroke of good luck for me, because I effectively was able to be a father and work from home at the same time ( 1st year kid - and she slept on a tight schedule ). And I will admit it was incredibly fulfilling ( albeit tiring ). We are a dual income household and above average in terms of income for our state and I honestly do not feel comfortable enough to let her stay home full time ( which is part of the reason for my goals for 2023 are more aggressive in terms of learning and moving my skill set to the next level ). Even by myself, we are above average and I still think it is not enough to keep the current level of comforts ( and I have no idea how other people manage ). << 2) We have an idea that women can do anything men can. That women can step into traditional mens spaces. But, the opposite isn't true. That men can step into traditional womens spaces. It's a double standard. It's not said but it's thought. Even when people don't realize it. Again, I think yes and no. Are there MMA fighters? Yeah, and some good ones too, but as my cousin recently said: "Do I want my daughter to be a plumber? No."
  - mfer 4y ago
    > "Do I want my daughter to be a plumber? No." How many people want their son to be a plumber? Likely not many of the people on HN. Does a lot of this view have to do with what people think of jobs like plumbers?
nsxwolf 4y ago
I get the "are you babysitting today" whenever I take the kids to the grocery store, but only from women. If men say anything, it's usually a joke about a vasectomy. I find both off-putting, but the "babysitting" thing really is odd. It's Saturday! We're buying groceries!
- chasd00 4y ago
  yeah i get the "babysitting?" thing a lot which is awkward. I never really know how to respond, like "no, just doing regular stuff as usual.." I know this thread is about a different topic but i went to a dad's lunch at my oldest's middle school. The school put on this presentation about how to be a good dad, it was very humiliating. Like it wasn't even about being a good parent it was just about how not to be a terrible parent, interviews where the guy says things like "i'm a good dad because i'm sitting at the table when my kid is eating dinner" or "i'm a good dad because i don't make jokes about my daughter's weight" etc. I was embarrassed to be sitting there and just turned around and talked, and had lunch, with my son which was why i was there to begin with.
willcipriano 4y ago
We didn't let Jordan Petersons (not that he is some sort of ideal) brand of masculinity out and now we are stuck with the Andrew Tate style. Masculinity is something that needs to be cultivated, trying to stamp it out just results in weeds.
- ianai 4y ago
  One (not the best) way to judge a world view or policy is to simply empower it and let it play itself out. Then investigate the value add to society and itself over time. Both of your examples wound up being problematic in the fullness of time. I definitely think there’s a place in the human world for the masculine and feminine and etc. But actual bullying, which I think relates to much toxic masculinity, rightfully should be countered. It doesn’t help that much toxic masculinity, to me, seems based in fundamental weakness or fear. (So address the underlying source of fear as a psychological phenomenon.)
  - TexanFeller 4y ago
    Maybe I'm reading you crosseyed, but you seem to be implying the that Jordan Peterson supports bullying. There are a few problems I have with him, but I've never heard him support that. I'm having trouble thinking of any particularly toxic male behaviors he advocates at all, so perhaps you could add examples.
SnoJohn 4y ago
I recently learned about the concept of the "Lead Dad" which is when the father is the chief caregiver. There are a handful of groups that try to connect these fathers (1). A big part of their emerging agenda is to get corporations and schools to recognize that the father is actually the point of contact and to destigmatize the dad who pauses or leaves his career to raise the kids. 1. https://thecompanyofdads.com https://thecompanyofdads.com
rapind 4y ago
> society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent that isn't a woman True, but I think there’s an issue with expectations. Biases don’t change overnight. It sucks, but everyone could use a little pragmatism IMO. TBH I’m not sure this bias will change very much anyways, as I don’t think the math supports it. If anything we’ve moved to double income, not to a role reversal.
deleted 4y ago
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nineplay 4y ago
It's a real problem that goes further than feminism. There are large numbers of men and women who truly believe that childcare is more naturally a woman's domain and see men getting involved as a kind of 'woke-ism' - men aren't raising children because they want to, they are raising children because they think it gives them leftist brownie points. I've seen this attitude on HN. I think a lot of posters like to see themselves in a man-of-the-house role and wouldn't want to give up their position as breadwinners.
yamtaddle 4y ago
Being out with three young children, as a man, is the only time in my life I've had people go as far out of their way to hold a door for me as men commonly do for women (with or without kids). That was interesting. First time I was like "wtf is happening?" before it dawned on me. That only lasted a year or two, a window in which I had enough in the right age range to trigger that behavior, I guess. Wasn't because I had a stroller, since I usually didn't, and wasn't because my hands were literally full, since I usually had at least one free. Like, nobody goes that far out of their way if I'm just carrying a couple drinks or something. It was truly exactly how we (guys) behave when holding the door for women. Neat experience to see the other side of that, I guess. I got a lot more comments about it than my wife did. I'd get several of the "wow, you must be busy!" sorts of remarks every time I was out. She'd get the occasional one, but nothing like me. Different expectations, I guess. Never felt shunned or treated with suspicion at parks. Worried I might, but it was never an issue. I tend to dress pretty well, though, by the standards of my area, which probably helps.

javajosh 4y ago

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation that it deserves. As for the rest of your post, absolutely. I love being a dad and it's a shame that our society doesn't seem to care much about father's apart from being a provider of money. Every man should be aware that if things go south and their marriage that their children could be taken away from them and they will be vilified if they try to get them back. You will not get sympathy from your friends or family or from the public at large. He will be fighting the tide.

afavour 4y ago
> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm conflicted about that. Not denying that what you've said is true but I specifically chose the term "red pilled" because there are huge toxic (predominantly online) communities that are openly misogynistic. e.g. in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Some of the frustration there is justified (family law definitely seems biased against fathers) but the result is not positive. I'd also add: a lot of this societal pressure against men being accepted as stay at home parents comes from men.
- LightHugger 4y ago
  Just like how a lot of the societal pressure causing womens issues comes from women. There's no difference between genders in this aspect. Though for some reason, i see some feminists trying to blame men exclusively for men's problems. I have never seen a man blaming women for all women's issues the same way.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - ponow 4y ago
      Bull.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        Do you have factual information backing your statement? I have, to take the two dominant Christian fundamentalist interpretations: - for Mormonism: "Numerous Prophets have instructed that a Mormon woman’s place is in the home. Only Federal anti-discrimination laws, which the Church vigorously opposed, and the threat of Federal prosecution, forced the Church in 1970s to stop terminating female employment upon the birth of her first child. While no longer as clearly directed from the pulpit, a women’s place in Mormonism remains very different than that of a man. Even into the 1980s, President Kimball reiterated that “…a mother’s place is in the home!” The idea of complementary spheres for men and women rules Mormon doctrine and is the answer to almost every question about the lack of power for women in the church." [1] - for the Southern Baptists: "A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation." [2] This is what these religions teach about women, there is no denying or whitewashing that. [1] https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/women-in-mormonism/ https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/wo... [2] https://bfm.sbc.net/bfm2000/report-of-the-baptist-faith-and-message-study-committee-on-article-xviii/ https://bfm.sbc.net/bfm2000/report-of-the-baptist-faith-and-...
gjsman-1000 4y ago
Sharing my thoughts, a recent idiom I ran across that I increasingly find useful in situations like this is "two things can be true at once." There can be people who are extremely misogynistic - but they can also have completely valid concerns and grievances that make them feel that way. "They might be idiots at best, but they might have decent reasons why they got there." Just ask any dad who has lost his children, wife, and property to an actually-false claim of domestic abuse. Ignoring those grievances, under the hope of trying to avoid giving them any respect, I believe risks actually increasing the number of misogynists because it doesn't address the underlying hurt that many of them may be experiencing, or the cause that will keep repeating itself.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  A similar thought I find helpful to internalize is that "hurt people hurt other people". That is to say, many victims are themselves assholes and abusive. It is important to remember that fair justice should be extended to all people, independence of their individual moral or sympathetic valence. It cuts both ways. Despicable people deserve a fair treatment, and victims themselves must be held accountable for their actions.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I must be living under a rock then — this Zeitgeist you talk of is alien to me. I am a male who does not feel in any way dehumanized, nor have any of my male friends expressed as much.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- broken_mind 4y ago
  Good for you! I've never noticed this thing so it doesn't exist. Pure and simple internalized misandry.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Doesn't exist. Zeitgeist. There's a pretty broad strata between those two.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
I had the same reaction to his first sentence. Why do you need to say that?
- draw_down 4y ago
  [dead]

fullshark 4y ago

I think this book is probably more about men who aren't working and are instead doing nothing productive. Raising children wouldn't count.

afavour 4y ago
Yeah I was kind of “yes, and”-ing the book topic. Women being out of work isn’t seen as such a crisis because so many are actually “working raising families. My point is that the same opportunity ought to be available to men, too.
ponow 4y ago
It does if you got a serious education that goes woefully underutilized.
- fullshark 4y ago
  I don't know, I have a "serious" education and using it to help a corporation make a little bit more money doesn't really seem that much more valuable than raising my kid. The opportunity cost for many with serious educations is maybe not that high.

dbingham 4y ago

Yeah, this is real. Men still tend to get erased from the parental equation to a large degree. And this doesn't just affect stay at home dads. Much of the dialog around pregnancy loss and childloss seems to forget that there's often a father involved as well, and that the loss impacts both parents. When we lost our first child to a still birth, people would often focus entirely on my wife when offering sympathy and comfort. The assumption was often that I was supporting her through the loss, not that I was also someone experiencing the loss who needed support. This is problematic on multiple levels, but on a very basic level it just made it that much harder for me to grieve the loss and made me feel erased. That said, I don't think it makes sense to connect the issues surrounding the ways in which men and women are still gendered in society, our resulting assumptions, and the harm they do with this particular problem. Because I think this particular problem affects both men and women, though with perhaps some differences in affect that are worth calling out because of the aforementioned gender roles and assumptions. I haven't read the referenced book, but I would separate this problem from the one described in the book. I think we're reinforcing those stereotypes when we frame the general problem of "people not having work" as being specific to men. Even beyond that, I would challenge the whole notion that people need to be included in the workforce. I think we're framing the problem wrong when we look at it that way. People need to be economically secure, they need to have deep connection to communities, and they need to have something meaningful to do with their time. Right now, many people only get those things from work. This is true of both men and women, plenty of women talk about loss of identity and struggle finding community when they become stay at home parents. So I would argue that the book is taking the wrong framing - both in focusing on men and in taking the wrong assumptions, or perhaps, the wrong ordering.

garettmd 4y ago
I remember during most interactions with healthcare providers during my wife and I's pregnancies, hardly anyone ever talked to me, sometimes never even looking at me. I get it, I'm not the one carrying a baby to term, but I would have thought the fact that I was showing up to all these appointments, staying by my wife's side, taking part in decisions, and supporting her and the baby through the whole thing would have granted me a bit of acknowledgement of my role and investment in the whole process. But many times people acted like I wasn't even there. I can't imagine having to deal with that dynamic with what you went through, and am so sorry for your loss.

williamdclt 4y ago

For the record, I agree with you and your argument is aligned with everybody I know who consider themselves feminists. It's part of what's meant by the now-memesque "patriarchy hurts everyone".

steve_adams_86 4y ago

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffers. How can they win? At least men have a clear expectation from society. In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work. We have a serious problem here. It doesn’t strike me as a problem of gender roles so much as cultural priorities (perhaps at the core of this is the pursuit of wealth and growth over focusing on family). I was as capable as my wife in caring for our son so that wasn’t a problem. The problem was that anyone ever saw something wrong with that picture, I suppose. We also took an enormous financial hit in order for her to continue working, because there was a very real concern than her career would suffer beyond repair if she took off, but I’d presumably be able to return fairly easily with my decade or so of software development experience. This happily turned out to be true. But still, what a strange situation to have to navigate.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
This could somewhat be solved by regulation You get around 1 year of parental leave here in my country - it starts 28 days before expected birth for the mother and lasts for 105 days, the father also gets 30 days, but 15 have to be used during the parental leave, and the other 15 in the next few years. After the 105 days of "mothers leave" are over, both parents get 260 days to divide between themselves however they want). The norm is for the mother to take the full 260 days, and the father goes to work. On one hand, fathers complain because they're not with their kids, on the other side, usually feminists complain about women losing a year of their carrers (because women still have a choice to go to work and let the dad use those 260 days), and hiring a could-be-soon-pregnant woman is a risk, because she might be gone for a year. If we atleast split the 260 evenly, and made it mandatory for both parents to be atleast a bit more equally absent from work, that would solve a lot... but since women would lose the 260 day, and there's no money for both parents to be absent from work, this won't ever be implemented.
beyond_based 4y ago

licebmi__at__ 4y ago

I’m still surprised that people are aware of the drawbacks that a patriarcal society with strong gender division where those who don’t conform are usually punished, and somehow identify with “redpilled antifeminists” who want a traditional society and attack the group which historically has been criticizing and questioning gendered roles.

hollywood_court 4y ago

Being a stay at home parent is certainly a lot of work. I did it for a while until my son started pre-k. However his school follows the schedule of the local university so it’s just been he and I for the past 3 weeks during the holidays and for 2 weeks recently before that during Thanksgiving break. We quickly fell back into our same routine of taking walks and working on his reading and writing. But I am definitely familiar with the questions from the mothers at the playground or the fitness class he attends. I just tell them that I was fortunate enough to retire at 40 and I’m presently trying to reinvent myself as a web developer.

ponow 4y ago
I barely talked to any of them after some of these exchanges. I refuse to explain myself.

nimbius 4y ago

a lot of this, at least in the united states, is due to a deep-seated dichotomy of heteronormative gender roles in suburban life. new mums groups have learned to be welcoming, but not inclusive to newcomers and that may largely be due to puritanical influences present in a lot of the cultures that oversee these groups. one could go so far as to say such patronisation and strict gender conformity serve to ostracize and secure the old-guard from ever encroaching threat of feminism or change. As a diesel mechanic in the midwest, I can say the decline in men that have work could be a couple of factors. First, we decided 30 years ago everyone had to go to college, and in doing so found most degrees hardly worth the paper they were printed on while landed gentry reaped the windfall of college loan income. conversely tradecraft like welding, carpentry, HVAC, engine repair, and plumbing fell by the wayside with many of these crafts given a scarlet letter and left to beg and plead for any help whatsoever. there is still plenty of work, its just been made obscure and wicked by a hand that cant reap any lending profit from it. second, militant drug testing and background checks have created an artificial scarcity. Do i need a sober person to run a drill press? certainly, but if that person spent a little time in jail for cannabis possession i dont care. Viewing potential employees as potential liabilities has in turn created a culture of calvinist jackboots that only hire the most visibly noble --if not technically bereft-- to fill their ranks.

xen2xen1 4y ago
I used to tell kids to go to college, and was unhappy if they did not go. Now I tell them they need a career. You need a skill people will pay for, or your life will suck. I'm in IT and most of skills come from a 2 year local degree, so it's college, but. It was very skills based. It was a career. Tell kids to get a career.
microtherion 4y ago
I believe (and that's hardly an original observation) that some of the problems in the US trades based professions stem from their lack of non-academic credentials systems. In e.g. Germany or Switzerland, your pot smoking drill press operator could point to a four year apprenticeship, and possibly even advanced specializations beyond that, with hundreds of recognized professional tracks. In the US, professional skills seem to be acquired somewhat more randomly, and consequently, are less portable.

mfer 4y ago

Two big things stick out in all of this to me... 1) There's the idea that one parent does not work for a company. This is hard for a lot of men and women to handle. A lot is put into the idea that adults need to be part of the economic productivity cycle or you're failing. Stay at home dad's are looked down on by others a lot due to this. It happens to many stay at home mom's, too. Think about it. If both parents work they make more so they can consume more. That means more money for share holders and companies. > what it is that you do This assumes that the important thing to do is something related to companies and the economy. It's unsaid but assumed without most realizing it. 2) We have an idea that women can do anything men can. That women can step into traditional mens spaces. But, the opposite isn't true. That men can step into traditional womens spaces. It's a double standard. It's not said but it's thought. Even when people don't realize it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< A lot is put into the idea that adults need to be part of the economic productivity cycle or you're failing. Yes and no, I think. I agree in abstract, because I am sure it is a factor, but I will give my personal anecdata. Covid was a stroke of good luck for me, because I effectively was able to be a father and work from home at the same time ( 1st year kid - and she slept on a tight schedule ). And I will admit it was incredibly fulfilling ( albeit tiring ). We are a dual income household and above average in terms of income for our state and I honestly do not feel comfortable enough to let her stay home full time ( which is part of the reason for my goals for 2023 are more aggressive in terms of learning and moving my skill set to the next level ). Even by myself, we are above average and I still think it is not enough to keep the current level of comforts ( and I have no idea how other people manage ). << 2) We have an idea that women can do anything men can. That women can step into traditional mens spaces. But, the opposite isn't true. That men can step into traditional womens spaces. It's a double standard. It's not said but it's thought. Even when people don't realize it. Again, I think yes and no. Are there MMA fighters? Yeah, and some good ones too, but as my cousin recently said: "Do I want my daughter to be a plumber? No."
- mfer 4y ago
  > "Do I want my daughter to be a plumber? No." How many people want their son to be a plumber? Likely not many of the people on HN. Does a lot of this view have to do with what people think of jobs like plumbers?

nsxwolf 4y ago

I get the "are you babysitting today" whenever I take the kids to the grocery store, but only from women. If men say anything, it's usually a joke about a vasectomy. I find both off-putting, but the "babysitting" thing really is odd. It's Saturday! We're buying groceries!

chasd00 4y ago
yeah i get the "babysitting?" thing a lot which is awkward. I never really know how to respond, like "no, just doing regular stuff as usual.." I know this thread is about a different topic but i went to a dad's lunch at my oldest's middle school. The school put on this presentation about how to be a good dad, it was very humiliating. Like it wasn't even about being a good parent it was just about how not to be a terrible parent, interviews where the guy says things like "i'm a good dad because i'm sitting at the table when my kid is eating dinner" or "i'm a good dad because i don't make jokes about my daughter's weight" etc. I was embarrassed to be sitting there and just turned around and talked, and had lunch, with my son which was why i was there to begin with.

willcipriano 4y ago

We didn't let Jordan Petersons (not that he is some sort of ideal) brand of masculinity out and now we are stuck with the Andrew Tate style. Masculinity is something that needs to be cultivated, trying to stamp it out just results in weeds.

ianai 4y ago
One (not the best) way to judge a world view or policy is to simply empower it and let it play itself out. Then investigate the value add to society and itself over time. Both of your examples wound up being problematic in the fullness of time. I definitely think there’s a place in the human world for the masculine and feminine and etc. But actual bullying, which I think relates to much toxic masculinity, rightfully should be countered. It doesn’t help that much toxic masculinity, to me, seems based in fundamental weakness or fear. (So address the underlying source of fear as a psychological phenomenon.)
- TexanFeller 4y ago
  Maybe I'm reading you crosseyed, but you seem to be implying the that Jordan Peterson supports bullying. There are a few problems I have with him, but I've never heard him support that. I'm having trouble thinking of any particularly toxic male behaviors he advocates at all, so perhaps you could add examples.

SnoJohn 4y ago

I recently learned about the concept of the "Lead Dad" which is when the father is the chief caregiver. There are a handful of groups that try to connect these fathers (1). A big part of their emerging agenda is to get corporations and schools to recognize that the father is actually the point of contact and to destigmatize the dad who pauses or leaves his career to raise the kids. 1. https://thecompanyofdads.com https://thecompanyofdads.com

rapind 4y ago

> society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent that isn't a woman True, but I think there’s an issue with expectations. Biases don’t change overnight. It sucks, but everyone could use a little pragmatism IMO. TBH I’m not sure this bias will change very much anyways, as I don’t think the math supports it. If anything we’ve moved to double income, not to a role reversal.

deleted 4y ago

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nineplay 4y ago

It's a real problem that goes further than feminism. There are large numbers of men and women who truly believe that childcare is more naturally a woman's domain and see men getting involved as a kind of 'woke-ism' - men aren't raising children because they want to, they are raising children because they think it gives them leftist brownie points. I've seen this attitude on HN. I think a lot of posters like to see themselves in a man-of-the-house role and wouldn't want to give up their position as breadwinners.

yamtaddle 4y ago

Being out with three young children, as a man, is the only time in my life I've had people go as far out of their way to hold a door for me as men commonly do for women (with or without kids). That was interesting. First time I was like "wtf is happening?" before it dawned on me. That only lasted a year or two, a window in which I had enough in the right age range to trigger that behavior, I guess. Wasn't because I had a stroller, since I usually didn't, and wasn't because my hands were literally full, since I usually had at least one free. Like, nobody goes that far out of their way if I'm just carrying a couple drinks or something. It was truly exactly how we (guys) behave when holding the door for women. Neat experience to see the other side of that, I guess. I got a lot more comments about it than my wife did. I'd get several of the "wow, you must be busy!" sorts of remarks every time I was out. She'd get the occasional one, but nothing like me. Different expectations, I guess. Never felt shunned or treated with suspicion at parks. Worried I might, but it was never an issue. I tend to dress pretty well, though, by the standards of my area, which probably helps.