10 ms·

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=100000

by parfe 15y ago

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10000000001308663 http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Labels-Inside-of-Violins?ugid=10000000001631923 http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=10000000014298167 http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller protection will not cover your liability. https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-c... If Paypal decides you sold a counterfeit item, you lose the item and your money.

joshz 15y ago
That's really shitty. It would be interesting to know what sole discretion or reasonable belief constitutes. I doubt ebay/paypal sent experts to 'investigate', they more likely said "If you, the buyer, believe it's counterfeit because of <whatever>, then it is. Seller won't sue anyway."
- artursapek 15y ago
  Is there a reason not to sue? That's $2,500 in losses. And the principle of it...
  - jackowayed 15y ago
    The above clause of the TOS is the reason not to sue. The seller agreed to a TOS that says that if PayPal decides that it is counterfeit, they refund the money and the item is destroyed, without any restriction on what care PayPal has to take to decide that it's counterfeit. So PayPal acted within the terms of their agreement.
    - chc 15y ago
      Are you a lawyer? Because it doesn't look like users are actually required to hold PayPal harmless in the event of property loss due to bad counterfeit decisions.
      - buff-a 15y ago
        Are you a lawyer? You appear to believe that a signed contract is inviolate. I am not a lawyer either, but I've dealt with contracts enough to know that the clause in this contract has "reasonable" in it for a reason, and that "reasonable" does not mean "whatever we think is reasonable".
        invisible 15y ago
        It does say "in our sole discretion," though... Which is pretty much "whatever we think is reasonable." So there's that.
        buff-a 15y ago
        The contract does not say, for example, "when we, at our sole discretion, toss a coin and arbitrarily decide one way or the other". I think that tossing a coin and using reason are different, and I believe that a court would uphold my expectation that reason was used. Paypal will then have an opportunity to present their reasons. In this case, IMHO, it would appear that a "reasonable standard" of "reason" was not used.
        chc 15y ago
        No, I'm not, and I didn't represent myself as one. I'm not sure what you find objectionable about my comment. I was wondering if the person I was replying to actually knew more than me or if he was speaking with undue certainty, so I asked.
    - joshz 15y ago
      The reason I said that isn't entirely because of the TOS but also because of the cost and logistics. Various courts could potentially decide that such clause isn't legal.
- gcb 15y ago
  1. Get a greedy lawyer 2. Sue Paypal for negligence. 3. Show up any conversation with buyer stating that the piece was priceless and the sale was only symbolic because he proved that he would keep the violin soul alive by playing it. 4. Add psychological trauma and other stuff to step 2.
- joshz 15y ago
  It now appears that the seller did get the violin authenticated. From a brief search, it looks like eBay had to pay large sums multiple times for selling counterfeit goods. $2500 violin, as sad as it is, is small fries. It seems that it's cheaper to operate under the assumption that if there's a suspicion an item is counterfeit, then that's more likely than not. Even if they messed up and lose a lawsuit from a seller, they'll pay a small fraction of what they'd pay a manufacturer.
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >"eBay had to pay large sums multiple times for selling counterfeit goods" I thought ebay provided a marketplace, I didn't realise they also sold goods?
    - dangrossman 15y ago
      Contributory infringement is a real thing in the US. You can be liable for providing the means.
pbreit 15y ago
It actually seems reasonable that PayPal would destroy counterfeit merchandise but it better be certain before doing so. Seems like it would make more sense for the item to be turned over to PayPal or law enforcement but perhaps that's too costly?
- marshray 15y ago
  We're not talking about a fake handbag here that's replaceable with the genuine thing made in the Chinese factory across the street. Antiques are irreplaceable and you'd better be sure what you're doing before destroying something like that.
  - andreyon 15y ago
    Man I hate paypal. I wish everyone would just stop using this junk. They are much much worse than any government in the world who just sucks taxes out of the brave one who starts a business. PayPal is such a risk for merchants, most don't even realize. I had funds blocked for 6 months and appeals denied ( not even read IMO ) for complying 110% with their terms. Just stop using PayPal.
dotBen 15y ago
Didn't know this 10.1 b clause until now but it makes it VERY clear to me: NEVER use PayPal to sell anything that could in anyway be disputed as counterfeit given that the terms allow PayPal to deems what is genuine/fake remotely, without physical inspection and results in not only money witheld but a potentially genuine item being destroyed. So so crazy.
- walexander 15y ago
  I froze for a second after reading that statement, which I was completely unaware of. I sometimes buy and sell rare coins (particularly US Morgan dollars), which regularly go for thousands of dollars. I have one on eBay at this very moment that I'm attempting to get $3000+ for. I've never heard of such a dispute happening before, or have I had any issues in the past, but now knowing this, i'm really scared of what might happen. We seriously need a viable competitor to the paypal/ebay system yesterday.
  - psychotik 15y ago
    Out of curiosity, how do you destroy a coin?
    - andrewkreid 15y ago
      Traditionally, by leaving it on the train tracks.
    - kd5bjo 15y ago
      Melting.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      I remember a year or three ago there was a story going around about Chinese scrap metal recyclers getting shipments of "destroyed" euro coins and reassembling them to pass off as intact money. Turns out at the time the official method to decommission the coins was to pop out the center piece. So to answer your question: In some cases, not well enough. ;) EDIT: source: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/04/euro_coin_recyc.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/04/euro_coin_recy...
loceng 15y ago
I would ask for proof of their 'reasonable belief' that it was counterfeit; If they don't provide, sue them for breaking TOS.
- zcid 15y ago
  At their "sole discretion" means they don't really need a reason.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
InclinedPlane 15y ago
Wow, that is frightening. Especially when you consider that "at paypal's sole discretion" amounts to "whatever an underpaid, remote customer droid has decided based on 5 minutes of effort".
- sdoering 15y ago
  Don't you think, 5 minutes is realistic? Looking at customer "service" here in Germany, I would say: Autoreply or max. 30 seconds of manual "labor".
justindocanto 15y ago
How is this legal?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
ctrager 15y ago
I've bought and sold a couple dozen pre-WWII violins on eBay. The violin I play (which I suck at) is labelled "Antonio Curatoli", which sounds old and Italian, but that name was just marketing by the German workshop that made the violin in the 1920's. I think of violin labelling as like the fake non-working decorative shutters in American suburban homes.

by parfe 15y ago

joshz 15y ago

That's really shitty. It would be interesting to know what sole discretion or reasonable belief constitutes. I doubt ebay/paypal sent experts to 'investigate', they more likely said "If you, the buyer, believe it's counterfeit because of <whatever>, then it is. Seller won't sue anyway."

artursapek 15y ago
Is there a reason not to sue? That's $2,500 in losses. And the principle of it...
- jackowayed 15y ago
  The above clause of the TOS is the reason not to sue. The seller agreed to a TOS that says that if PayPal decides that it is counterfeit, they refund the money and the item is destroyed, without any restriction on what care PayPal has to take to decide that it's counterfeit. So PayPal acted within the terms of their agreement.
  - chc 15y ago
    Are you a lawyer? Because it doesn't look like users are actually required to hold PayPal harmless in the event of property loss due to bad counterfeit decisions.
    - buff-a 15y ago
      Are you a lawyer? You appear to believe that a signed contract is inviolate. I am not a lawyer either, but I've dealt with contracts enough to know that the clause in this contract has "reasonable" in it for a reason, and that "reasonable" does not mean "whatever we think is reasonable".
      - invisible 15y ago
        It does say "in our sole discretion," though... Which is pretty much "whatever we think is reasonable." So there's that.
        buff-a 15y ago
        The contract does not say, for example, "when we, at our sole discretion, toss a coin and arbitrarily decide one way or the other". I think that tossing a coin and using reason are different, and I believe that a court would uphold my expectation that reason was used. Paypal will then have an opportunity to present their reasons. In this case, IMHO, it would appear that a "reasonable standard" of "reason" was not used.
      - chc 15y ago
        No, I'm not, and I didn't represent myself as one. I'm not sure what you find objectionable about my comment. I was wondering if the person I was replying to actually knew more than me or if he was speaking with undue certainty, so I asked.
  - joshz 15y ago
    The reason I said that isn't entirely because of the TOS but also because of the cost and logistics. Various courts could potentially decide that such clause isn't legal.
gcb 15y ago
1. Get a greedy lawyer 2. Sue Paypal for negligence. 3. Show up any conversation with buyer stating that the piece was priceless and the sale was only symbolic because he proved that he would keep the violin soul alive by playing it. 4. Add psychological trauma and other stuff to step 2.
joshz 15y ago
It now appears that the seller did get the violin authenticated. From a brief search, it looks like eBay had to pay large sums multiple times for selling counterfeit goods. $2500 violin, as sad as it is, is small fries. It seems that it's cheaper to operate under the assumption that if there's a suspicion an item is counterfeit, then that's more likely than not. Even if they messed up and lose a lawsuit from a seller, they'll pay a small fraction of what they'd pay a manufacturer.
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  >"eBay had to pay large sums multiple times for selling counterfeit goods" I thought ebay provided a marketplace, I didn't realise they also sold goods?
  - dangrossman 15y ago
    Contributory infringement is a real thing in the US. You can be liable for providing the means.

pbreit 15y ago

It actually seems reasonable that PayPal would destroy counterfeit merchandise but it better be certain before doing so. Seems like it would make more sense for the item to be turned over to PayPal or law enforcement but perhaps that's too costly?

marshray 15y ago
We're not talking about a fake handbag here that's replaceable with the genuine thing made in the Chinese factory across the street. Antiques are irreplaceable and you'd better be sure what you're doing before destroying something like that.
- andreyon 15y ago
  Man I hate paypal. I wish everyone would just stop using this junk. They are much much worse than any government in the world who just sucks taxes out of the brave one who starts a business. PayPal is such a risk for merchants, most don't even realize. I had funds blocked for 6 months and appeals denied ( not even read IMO ) for complying 110% with their terms. Just stop using PayPal.

dotBen 15y ago

Didn't know this 10.1 b clause until now but it makes it VERY clear to me: NEVER use PayPal to sell anything that could in anyway be disputed as counterfeit given that the terms allow PayPal to deems what is genuine/fake remotely, without physical inspection and results in not only money witheld but a potentially genuine item being destroyed. So so crazy.

walexander 15y ago
I froze for a second after reading that statement, which I was completely unaware of. I sometimes buy and sell rare coins (particularly US Morgan dollars), which regularly go for thousands of dollars. I have one on eBay at this very moment that I'm attempting to get $3000+ for. I've never heard of such a dispute happening before, or have I had any issues in the past, but now knowing this, i'm really scared of what might happen. We seriously need a viable competitor to the paypal/ebay system yesterday.
- psychotik 15y ago
  Out of curiosity, how do you destroy a coin?
  - andrewkreid 15y ago
    Traditionally, by leaving it on the train tracks.
  - kd5bjo 15y ago
    Melting.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    I remember a year or three ago there was a story going around about Chinese scrap metal recyclers getting shipments of "destroyed" euro coins and reassembling them to pass off as intact money. Turns out at the time the official method to decommission the coins was to pop out the center piece. So to answer your question: In some cases, not well enough. ;) EDIT: source: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/04/euro_coin_recyc.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/04/euro_coin_recy...

loceng 15y ago

I would ask for proof of their 'reasonable belief' that it was counterfeit; If they don't provide, sue them for breaking TOS.

zcid 15y ago
At their "sole discretion" means they don't really need a reason.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

InclinedPlane 15y ago

Wow, that is frightening. Especially when you consider that "at paypal's sole discretion" amounts to "whatever an underpaid, remote customer droid has decided based on 5 minutes of effort".

sdoering 15y ago
Don't you think, 5 minutes is realistic? Looking at customer "service" here in Germany, I would say: Autoreply or max. 30 seconds of manual "labor".

justindocanto 15y ago

How is this legal?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

ctrager 15y ago

I've bought and sold a couple dozen pre-WWII violins on eBay. The violin I play (which I suck at) is labelled "Antonio Curatoli", which sounds old and Italian, but that name was just marketing by the German workshop that made the violin in the 1920's. I think of violin labelling as like the fake non-working decorative shutters in American suburban homes.