14 ms·

Why hundreds of thousands of kids in the US dread their 21st birthdays

76 points by Growtika 4y ago

ls15 4y ago
Isn't it uneconomic for a country to educate young people and then deport them as soon as they (are old enough to) start working and paying taxes?
- em500 4y ago
  It is. But in the giant sea of other uneconomic things the US does, this is only a tiny drop.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I feel like it is the biggest drop. A young, productive population is one of a country’s biggest advantage. The US has natural resources, a relatively stable political system and high trust society (at least for day to day interactions), but the biggest weakness going forward is a smaller proportion of young workers. Why would any country not want the fruits of 40+ years of labor from the examples of the people in the article?
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > relatively stable political system Compared to say Afghanistan maybe, but compared to other developed countries, not really. Political gridlock for most of the time, and a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth with the ones currently in power spending most of their time to undo what the previous ones did during their time in power. > high trust society (at least for day to day interactions) That's not the impression i get from the people screaming they need to carry weapons to feel safe. > but the biggest weakness going forward is a smaller proportion of young workers. Today's young workers in the US (but that's not in any way a US specific phenomenon) feel that many things that were normal for the previous generation (e.g. home ownership) are simply out of reach. Adding more young people without fixing the underlying issues causing the already existing ones to struggle hard is not going to make anything better.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        > Political gridlock for most of the time, and a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth with the ones currently in power spending most of their time to undo what the previous ones did during their time in power. This sounds like the definition of stable. But what I actually meant by stable is where you can reasonably expect legal decisions and regulations to be predictable and hence plan around-able. Contrasted to a place where you have to pay unknown bribes to shifting allegiances, etc. >That's not the impression i get from the people screaming they need to carry weapons to feel safe. I would bet 90% of Americans do not go to sleep worrying about safety, or choosing to carry guns all the time because of it. But the high trust I was talking about was for things like being able to trust the plumber you called knows his stuff, or that you will get paid on your regular payday, or the food and medicine you buy will be as advertised. > Today's young workers in the US (but that's not in any way a US specific phenomenon) feel that many things that were normal for the previous generation (e.g. home ownership) are simply out of reach. Prices are a function of supply and demand. The US is not lacking in supply of land, but maybe it is lacking in supply of land near desirable regions experiencing economic growth. Old people are not going to be able to develop the land into homes, nor are they going to spur economic growth. Young people raising children does that. > Adding more young people without fixing the underlying issues causing the already existing ones to struggle hard is not going to make anything better. Adding young people, especially qualified young people who produce things people want, especially outside the country’s borders, is exactly what would make things better. It would increase demand for products and services, without increasing debt.
      - acuozzo 4y ago
        > a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth Is this not stability?
        addaon 4y ago
        The DC value of an oscillating system can be thought of as stable, but whether the dynamic behavior is stable or unstable comes down to the damping factor. Reasonable people can differ, but there certainly seems to be a tendency to underdamping recently.
  - MuffinFlavored 4y ago
    What are some larger "uneconomic" things in the US?
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  All of these people can get cheaper college education in their country of birth than in USA. So that's a plus. They can come back with a H1B visa to pay taxes in the US. I bet a lot of them could even qualify for residency in Canada, an even better opportunity for them with more reasonable immigration policies.
  - ls15 4y ago
    Education does not start at the age of 21 though
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Why would they waste 4+2 years of F1 status?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bluedino 4y ago
  It's just as bad to have all of these young people in the USA and have them not learning tech, medicine, engineering. We have to rely on immigrants to take these jobs because Americans aren't going to school for this stuff. Forty-two percent of California's workers in science, technology, engineering and math occupations were born in a foreign nation Digging deeper, we see that 20.7% of foreign born with bachelor's degrees are in STEM occupations compared with 11.4% for similarly educated USA born As of 2017, over 40 percent of the U.S. doctoral-level workforce was foreign-born. In computer sciences, mathematics, and engineering, nearly 60 percent of PhD holders in the U.S. workforce are foreign-born What happens when these people start to go home? Why don't American kids want to prepare themselves for these high-paying jobs?
  - FormerBandmate 4y ago
    American schools simply aren’t that good in many cases, because educators are more focused on political concerns that don’t matter
  - cr1895 4y ago
    >What happens when these people start to go home? The US can very well be home for someone born elsewhere. It would be wrong to assume that those people are somehow just temporarily staying. I’d imagine the group of foreign-born people who are in the US on time-limited or otherwise precarious visas is a lot smaller.
    - vrc 4y ago
      H1Bs would like to have a word with you… Even look at the number of people who are screwed in this job climate because of OPT limits.
  - jeffwiederkehr 4y ago
    I think the numbers above actually make sense if you look at the pressures that influence decisions on what to study and whether to get a PhD for national vs international students. If you're international getting a bachelors you need to find a company willing to sponsor when you graduate so it makes a lot more sense to pursue a STEM degree that is in high demand to employers. For graduate students their is compounding pressure because getting a PhD allows the student to stay in the USA while they obtain the degree and STEM degrees qualify for the STEM OPT extension so instead of only having 1 year of work authorization post graduation you have 3 years. If the goal is to stay in the USA permanently it really doesn't make any sense to pursue a non STEM grad degree. I don't have any commentary on whether the way the system is set up makes sense but I don't think it's just a case of American kids don't want to study these subjects rather theirs intense immigration pressure on international students to funnel them into STEM subjects.
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  No not necessarily. It works as a deterrent to people who think they can sneak in and have babies. You have to consider the long term damage of the refugee crisis. We try to do this in the Netherlands. But it doesn't work because nobody wants to send back Western assimilated people back to the barbarian lands.
  - Joker_vD 4y ago
    > back to the barbarian lands. Are you implying there are actually "shithole countries"?
- belltaco 4y ago
  It is, but also have to weigh it against the fact that typically the workers send remittances back home, which is a big help with foreign exchange balances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_from_the_United_St...
- aeortiz 4y ago
  I am one of these. I think the idea is to have them go back and succeed in their home country so they won't immigrate to the US.
kaapipo 4y ago
[flagged]
- vcavq 4y ago
  As someone living in a southern European welfare state, I'll just say that I'm jealous of the US immigration policies. The free-for-all policy that we have here depresses wages, raises crime rates, and dilutes our culture.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    In this case it's just ridiculous. Children are especially malleable to school indoctrination and easily give up their (not yet formed) ethnicity. Citizenship should be automatic for those that have been around since (public) middle school (give or take).
    - dmm 4y ago
      > Citizenship should be automatic for those that have been around since (public) middle school (give or take). The examples of educated and well integrated individuals are very sympathetic and most people would agree that US immigration policy is deeply flawed but any path the permanent residency will create powerful incentives. Are you saying any 12yo who comes and lives in the US for six years automatically gets citizenship? Is that really what we want to incentivize? I'm concerned that trying to "patch" up immigration policy with one-off fixes will just created further problems in the future. Maybe it would be better to create a true professional immigration process (like Canada?) that would accommodate these individuals and eliminate the mess that's H1B?
      - resoluteteeth 4y ago
        > Are you saying any 12yo who comes and lives in the US for six years automatically gets citizenship? IMO, being able to vote in the country you live and pay taxes in is basically a fundamental human right. The idea that you should deprive immigrants who are living somewhere permanently of the right of self determination based on some sort of nationalistic idea of how countries should function just seems extremely misguided to me. If you don't want to let them in that's one thing but once they're living there and paying taxes beyond maybe a few years they're entitled to vote.
daicy666 4y ago
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Melting_Harps 4y ago
I honestly cannot believe in the 21st century we tolerate such archaic systems for highly sought professionals, that we in turn educated via subsidized education (se is a nursing grad from University of South Florida) especially with the enormous demand for nurses. I think at this point, especially with the massive layoffs in tech and the high back up for even renewals and thus precarious situation with H1-N visa holders, it's probably worth exploring a market-place for residence/citizenship via contractional marriage with prenuptial agreements. The situation is becoming more dire and the thought of losing more US raised talent due to such an absurd situation like a backlog of application renewals demands that tech disrupt this monolith. > As someone living in a northern European welfare state, I'll just say what a shitshow the US is I agree, but the truth is that EU/CH isn't much better either. There is a large stigma of German professionals, specifically physicians, coming to Switzerland 'taking all the jobs' when most Swiss who do attend university don't even study medicine to fill the roles they require in most cantons. And then try and come into Switzerland as a professional that conflicts with te Swiss population if you're from a less desirable country like Czech Republic, Hungary or Slovakia--there is a large Croatian population in Switzerland due to the diaspora after the collapse of Yugoslavia, but one of my predictions is how they will delay things for those who want to come and enter Schengen next week. And I'm not even going to go into the quota situation because its murky, and varies from canton to canton. But honestly, it's an absurd system that as the article outlines is ultimately upheld with bi-partisan support in the US, which means that their is no alternative has been the maxim for far too long with no change in sight despite the massive shortfalls of talented professionals in a post COVID World.
- kaapipo 4y ago
  >I agree, but the truth is that EU/CH isn't much better either. There is a large stigma of German professionals, specifically physicians, coming to Switzerland 'taking all the jobs' when most Swiss who do attend university don't even study medicine to fill the roles they require in most cantons. What does the EU-Switzerland immigration situation have to do with Northern European welfare states?
- xdennis 4y ago
  > I honestly cannot believe in the 21st century we tolerate such archaic systems for highly sought professionals, that we in turn educated via subsidized education (se is a nursing grad from University of South Florida) especially with the enormous demand for nurses. That particular person is. I think the whole point of immigration is that it should be decided on an individual case. Giving a nursing grad a visa sounds like a great idea, but should all children of visa holders be given visas? I think there should be a few requirements.
causi 4y ago
One major reason: the green card backlog is immense – especially for immigrants from India; it can take decades for them even to have a chance to apply. This is bad even from the most hardcore selfish, anti-immigrant position: you want people moving in when they're educated and young, not when they're a decade or less away from retirement.
- master_crab 4y ago
  The current wait time for a green card for an Indian is on the order of 100-120 years. One of my reports, an engineer from Chennai, doesn’t want to renew his H1B in two years time and is considering either working from our office in Bangalore or beginning a startup in India. The dynamics have changed in the country. The startup scene and the maturity of mobile networks has made India a far more attractive place to live and work than it did 10 years ago. Most developed nations are going to regret the end of this brain drain.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Same here in Eastern Europe. I was on a contract in Switzerland in 2020 and while the pay was awesome, it wasn't sustainable - permanent employees in the same company make around 2-2.5x of what I do back home, but the cost of living (especially real estate) is 3-4x, so I have no incentive to migrate there. I mean, Switzerland is nice, just not that nice when you're an immigrant. I don't recall anyone from my former team staying either, despite getting job offers.
    - haspok 4y ago
      Except if you come from the EU and you have a job in Switzerland, you get a permit, more or less _by default_. You are even allowed to stay for 3 months just looking for a job! Good luck trying that in the US. Side-note: Having watched a number of "Benefits Britain" episodes recently, I realized that the main reason why the Swiss insist on a permit (for which a job is necessary - or a lot of money) is because certain folks from the East would immediately come and take advantage of the benefits system, as they did in the UK before Brexit. This behaviour was so alien to me that initially I did not understand the permit situation - why have it if I get it "automatically"? That's why.
nisegami 4y ago
My experience getting my student visa turned me off from remaining in the US after graduating, so if the goal was to reduce immigration by embodying Kafka, it succeeded in at least one case.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  Really? I studied there 1 year and the visa process was absolutely painless (6 years ago). A form to fill, an appointment at the embassy and it's done.
  - nisegami 4y ago
    That's what I expected going in, but after a few weeks the status changed to indicate further processing without any information. I eventually ended up missing my first semester and having to beg them to let them and my scholarship me defer a semester basically when the semester had basically started. I eventually got my visa suddenly after about 4-5 months with no communication during that time from anyone on that side.
jan_g 4y ago
Interesting situation and the opposite of what would make sense. You spend taxpayer money to educate in integrate all these young people, then boot them out? Can't speak for the rest of the world, but the country I do have experience with has something called "naturalization process" (not sure if it's the right translation), where children of immigrant families are fast-tracked to citizenship when they turn 18. Which makes total sense to me.
- kodyo 4y ago
  Hand-wringing over "taxpayer money" is weird. I have no say when my money is confiscated. Why would I think I'd get a say about what the thieves spend it on? The system is working exactly the way the people with the most guns want it to.
pirate787 4y ago
A 20 year old is an adult, not a "kid"
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  If you don't have full access to adult life, you aren't an adult. You might not be a traditional "kid", but you certainly aren't an adult. At 20, you can't drink in the US. I don't think you can buy nicotine, and probably can't buy weed in legal places. Do they still deny rental cars to 20-year-olds, either outright or through fees too high for most 20-year-olds? Is this still even if their car insurance says they get a rental? Do some hotels still deny young folks lodging?
  - AntoniusBlock 4y ago
    Being an adult is based on biological development, not whether you can drink or buy weed.
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      What name would you give to the point where you have all the rights and opportunities of adults if adult is not the correct term?
      - AntoniusBlock 4y ago
        Adult is the correct term. I just don't think we should base adulthood on nebulous things like the ability to drink alcohol, smoke weed or rent hotel rooms, but rather to put a bigger emphasis on biology.
        Joker_vD 4y ago
        Which brings us back to the original point: why are there those arbitrary restrictions put on biologically adult people?
jeroenhd 4y ago
This is incredibly unfair to the children of immigrants who have lived in the US all their lives. Leaving out the ethical discussion it doesn't even make sense financially, the government spends all this money on making these people productive members of society and then kicks them out the moment they start paying back into the system. I can't think of a single reason to maintain this system other than "foreign people bad". It's not even because of dumb racism, as the article highlights through the woman of Northern Irish descent who's white as can be; this is due to an arbitrary definition of "foreign" which I don't think any reasonable person would apply to someone who's lived in their country since they were 3. On the other hand, I wonder what some of their parents were thinking. Their children should definitely get a visa or even the ability to apply for citizenship, but the parents knew what problems their kids face once they become adults. Perhaps those waiting on the green card program couldn't have known because the huge wait times weren't a problem when they first arrived and they simply couldn't have known, but for those on temporary visas with no chance to get their children citizenship, they could and should have known. For decades they let their kids work towards an impossible future. Until immigration policies get fixed, I think it's incredibly unfair towards these children to be forced to go through this. I don't know what parents were expecting to happen when they took their young kids into a country they knew they couldn't stay in, but I can't help but feel they're part of the problem. I don't expect the problem to disappear any time soon either, with Trump aiming at a second presidency and (close enough to) half the American voting population still voting conservatively.
- candiodari 4y ago
  I'm going to get downvoted for this, but anyway. I am a parent with 3 kids in this situation (not in the US, but similar). I myself grew up in this situation, and so did my wife. We both got citizenships by the time we finished high school though. We didn't even care, barely realized, that was normal at the time. And, yes, we moved countries ourselves as well, after having kids. So first: you forget laws changed over the time these kids grew up. It used to be the case that just physically being in a country for 5-10 years used to be enough to get citizenship. Including in the US. Kids already here were not grandfathered into the old rules. So don't be too hard on these parents. The parents simply trusted that the state would actually follow the laws (which of course means NOT CHANGING THOSE LAWS, at least not for people already here). Yes trusting the state is a mistake. A big one. We've both had trouble getting into universities. We've also had trouble, for example, with youth services. Because a teacher that one kid had a conflict with reported them, after she (the kid) pointed out that she had in fact lived in a particular country, and she was pretty damn sure NZ was in fact in Asia/Australia, not in Europe. Plus that the local habits are in fact only marginally different from the US, that what she said was total bullshit. This is, apparently, a more serious situation than TWO kids getting arrested in the same school for dealing drugs. But yeah I get it: you can't trust the state. I don't know or understand what child protective services is for, what twisted logic they follow, but it sure as hell isn't protecting children. Man, actually seeing one such institution ... seeing the kids in there ... WTF. We were eventually forced to get the kids into a private school. Was that racism? I'm not even 100% sure. I think it was 90% that the teacher was a vengeful moron, totally unfit to teach children (not just for not knowing, but first and foremost for letting a conflict with a 7 year old get out of hand AND thoroughly make a fool of herself in the process, and not just once) and 10% racism. And, of course, CPS "hunting" healthy kids, and actively avoiding kids with actual problems (such details like, oh, getting caught with drugs at 13 years old. Those kids they actually avoid talking to) These days: if you want a decent job, a decent life, you will have fight against the state. School/the education system was never anyone's friend in my experience, but right now the relationships are outright adversarial. Schools, even private ones, cannot be trusted to give correct information about education opportunities to children (not saying private ones aren't 100x better, but they're not 100% accurate). They also purposefully create conflicts now, I don't even understand WHY. Immigration is just one aspect of that. Racism is the real fight: as pointed out in the article, getting into a decent school and then university, or even later figuring out which professors and employers/customers can be trusted, despite more and more racism is the tougher fight. Immigration is making sure a whole lot of forms are filled in 100% correctly at 10 different government offices, perfectly on time, and NEVER TRUSTING WHAT GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES SAY. Because some are actively trying to "advise" you into making a huge mistake. Always has been. We are still in the situation that if these kids can find a good job, they will be allowed to stay, and be able get citizenship in time if they want to. Of course that the laws deteriorated to this point is not a good sign, but what are you going to do, other than trust the state that has betrayed you already? You have no choice. But are these parents to blame? To some extent, I guess. They trusted the state's word. Big mistake. But I wouldn't worry too much about 95% of these kids. See what's happening to the health system. Education. Police forces. Give it 20 years and they will definitely not be the biggest victims of trusting the state, even if they do get asked to leave.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
vsskanth 4y ago
I've observed any discussion about US immigration (no matter how relevant to tech) gets booted off the HN front page, probably deprioritized. I'm not sure if it's something others have noted too. I do wonder why though. Is it because it doesn't generate any new discussion and just attracts flame wars ?
- seanw444 4y ago
  Probably. It can't really go much further than: "No, it's not our responsibility to help these people, and the system pretty decent already." "Yes, it's our responsibility to help these people, and the system needs to be changed to support that." No real way to move people from these positions. I guess in short it's a morality thing. Personal belief. Not so much about technicality.
entropicgravity 4y ago
If all else fails apply to immigrate to Canada. Canada has a point system and anyone raised in the US would be right at the top of the list. Currently Canada is hoping for 400k immigrants per year so the chances are very good.

76 points by Growtika 4y ago

ls15 4y ago

Isn't it uneconomic for a country to educate young people and then deport them as soon as they (are old enough to) start working and paying taxes?

em500 4y ago
It is. But in the giant sea of other uneconomic things the US does, this is only a tiny drop.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I feel like it is the biggest drop. A young, productive population is one of a country’s biggest advantage. The US has natural resources, a relatively stable political system and high trust society (at least for day to day interactions), but the biggest weakness going forward is a smaller proportion of young workers. Why would any country not want the fruits of 40+ years of labor from the examples of the people in the article?
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > relatively stable political system Compared to say Afghanistan maybe, but compared to other developed countries, not really. Political gridlock for most of the time, and a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth with the ones currently in power spending most of their time to undo what the previous ones did during their time in power. > high trust society (at least for day to day interactions) That's not the impression i get from the people screaming they need to carry weapons to feel safe. > but the biggest weakness going forward is a smaller proportion of young workers. Today's young workers in the US (but that's not in any way a US specific phenomenon) feel that many things that were normal for the previous generation (e.g. home ownership) are simply out of reach. Adding more young people without fixing the underlying issues causing the already existing ones to struggle hard is not going to make anything better.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      > Political gridlock for most of the time, and a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth with the ones currently in power spending most of their time to undo what the previous ones did during their time in power. This sounds like the definition of stable. But what I actually meant by stable is where you can reasonably expect legal decisions and regulations to be predictable and hence plan around-able. Contrasted to a place where you have to pay unknown bribes to shifting allegiances, etc. >That's not the impression i get from the people screaming they need to carry weapons to feel safe. I would bet 90% of Americans do not go to sleep worrying about safety, or choosing to carry guns all the time because of it. But the high trust I was talking about was for things like being able to trust the plumber you called knows his stuff, or that you will get paid on your regular payday, or the food and medicine you buy will be as advertised. > Today's young workers in the US (but that's not in any way a US specific phenomenon) feel that many things that were normal for the previous generation (e.g. home ownership) are simply out of reach. Prices are a function of supply and demand. The US is not lacking in supply of land, but maybe it is lacking in supply of land near desirable regions experiencing economic growth. Old people are not going to be able to develop the land into homes, nor are they going to spur economic growth. Young people raising children does that. > Adding more young people without fixing the underlying issues causing the already existing ones to struggle hard is not going to make anything better. Adding young people, especially qualified young people who produce things people want, especially outside the country’s borders, is exactly what would make things better. It would increase demand for products and services, without increasing debt.
    - acuozzo 4y ago
      > a two party system that practically guarantees a constant back and forth Is this not stability?
      - addaon 4y ago
        The DC value of an oscillating system can be thought of as stable, but whether the dynamic behavior is stable or unstable comes down to the damping factor. Reasonable people can differ, but there certainly seems to be a tendency to underdamping recently.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  What are some larger "uneconomic" things in the US?
throw_m239339 4y ago
All of these people can get cheaper college education in their country of birth than in USA. So that's a plus. They can come back with a H1B visa to pay taxes in the US. I bet a lot of them could even qualify for residency in Canada, an even better opportunity for them with more reasonable immigration policies.
- ls15 4y ago
  Education does not start at the age of 21 though
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Why would they waste 4+2 years of F1 status?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bluedino 4y ago
It's just as bad to have all of these young people in the USA and have them not learning tech, medicine, engineering. We have to rely on immigrants to take these jobs because Americans aren't going to school for this stuff. Forty-two percent of California's workers in science, technology, engineering and math occupations were born in a foreign nation Digging deeper, we see that 20.7% of foreign born with bachelor's degrees are in STEM occupations compared with 11.4% for similarly educated USA born As of 2017, over 40 percent of the U.S. doctoral-level workforce was foreign-born. In computer sciences, mathematics, and engineering, nearly 60 percent of PhD holders in the U.S. workforce are foreign-born What happens when these people start to go home? Why don't American kids want to prepare themselves for these high-paying jobs?
- FormerBandmate 4y ago
  American schools simply aren’t that good in many cases, because educators are more focused on political concerns that don’t matter
- cr1895 4y ago
  >What happens when these people start to go home? The US can very well be home for someone born elsewhere. It would be wrong to assume that those people are somehow just temporarily staying. I’d imagine the group of foreign-born people who are in the US on time-limited or otherwise precarious visas is a lot smaller.
  - vrc 4y ago
    H1Bs would like to have a word with you… Even look at the number of people who are screwed in this job climate because of OPT limits.
- jeffwiederkehr 4y ago
  I think the numbers above actually make sense if you look at the pressures that influence decisions on what to study and whether to get a PhD for national vs international students. If you're international getting a bachelors you need to find a company willing to sponsor when you graduate so it makes a lot more sense to pursue a STEM degree that is in high demand to employers. For graduate students their is compounding pressure because getting a PhD allows the student to stay in the USA while they obtain the degree and STEM degrees qualify for the STEM OPT extension so instead of only having 1 year of work authorization post graduation you have 3 years. If the goal is to stay in the USA permanently it really doesn't make any sense to pursue a non STEM grad degree. I don't have any commentary on whether the way the system is set up makes sense but I don't think it's just a case of American kids don't want to study these subjects rather theirs intense immigration pressure on international students to funnel them into STEM subjects.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
No not necessarily. It works as a deterrent to people who think they can sneak in and have babies. You have to consider the long term damage of the refugee crisis. We try to do this in the Netherlands. But it doesn't work because nobody wants to send back Western assimilated people back to the barbarian lands.
- Joker_vD 4y ago
  > back to the barbarian lands. Are you implying there are actually "shithole countries"?
belltaco 4y ago
It is, but also have to weigh it against the fact that typically the workers send remittances back home, which is a big help with foreign exchange balances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittances_from_the_United_St...
aeortiz 4y ago
I am one of these. I think the idea is to have them go back and succeed in their home country so they won't immigrate to the US.

kaapipo 4y ago

[flagged]

vcavq 4y ago
As someone living in a southern European welfare state, I'll just say that I'm jealous of the US immigration policies. The free-for-all policy that we have here depresses wages, raises crime rates, and dilutes our culture.
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  In this case it's just ridiculous. Children are especially malleable to school indoctrination and easily give up their (not yet formed) ethnicity. Citizenship should be automatic for those that have been around since (public) middle school (give or take).
  - dmm 4y ago
    > Citizenship should be automatic for those that have been around since (public) middle school (give or take). The examples of educated and well integrated individuals are very sympathetic and most people would agree that US immigration policy is deeply flawed but any path the permanent residency will create powerful incentives. Are you saying any 12yo who comes and lives in the US for six years automatically gets citizenship? Is that really what we want to incentivize? I'm concerned that trying to "patch" up immigration policy with one-off fixes will just created further problems in the future. Maybe it would be better to create a true professional immigration process (like Canada?) that would accommodate these individuals and eliminate the mess that's H1B?
    - resoluteteeth 4y ago
      > Are you saying any 12yo who comes and lives in the US for six years automatically gets citizenship? IMO, being able to vote in the country you live and pay taxes in is basically a fundamental human right. The idea that you should deprive immigrants who are living somewhere permanently of the right of self determination based on some sort of nationalistic idea of how countries should function just seems extremely misguided to me. If you don't want to let them in that's one thing but once they're living there and paying taxes beyond maybe a few years they're entitled to vote.

daicy666 4y ago

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Melting_Harps 4y ago

I honestly cannot believe in the 21st century we tolerate such archaic systems for highly sought professionals, that we in turn educated via subsidized education (se is a nursing grad from University of South Florida) especially with the enormous demand for nurses. I think at this point, especially with the massive layoffs in tech and the high back up for even renewals and thus precarious situation with H1-N visa holders, it's probably worth exploring a market-place for residence/citizenship via contractional marriage with prenuptial agreements. The situation is becoming more dire and the thought of losing more US raised talent due to such an absurd situation like a backlog of application renewals demands that tech disrupt this monolith. > As someone living in a northern European welfare state, I'll just say what a shitshow the US is I agree, but the truth is that EU/CH isn't much better either. There is a large stigma of German professionals, specifically physicians, coming to Switzerland 'taking all the jobs' when most Swiss who do attend university don't even study medicine to fill the roles they require in most cantons. And then try and come into Switzerland as a professional that conflicts with te Swiss population if you're from a less desirable country like Czech Republic, Hungary or Slovakia--there is a large Croatian population in Switzerland due to the diaspora after the collapse of Yugoslavia, but one of my predictions is how they will delay things for those who want to come and enter Schengen next week. And I'm not even going to go into the quota situation because its murky, and varies from canton to canton. But honestly, it's an absurd system that as the article outlines is ultimately upheld with bi-partisan support in the US, which means that their is no alternative has been the maxim for far too long with no change in sight despite the massive shortfalls of talented professionals in a post COVID World.

kaapipo 4y ago
>I agree, but the truth is that EU/CH isn't much better either. There is a large stigma of German professionals, specifically physicians, coming to Switzerland 'taking all the jobs' when most Swiss who do attend university don't even study medicine to fill the roles they require in most cantons. What does the EU-Switzerland immigration situation have to do with Northern European welfare states?
xdennis 4y ago
> I honestly cannot believe in the 21st century we tolerate such archaic systems for highly sought professionals, that we in turn educated via subsidized education (se is a nursing grad from University of South Florida) especially with the enormous demand for nurses. That particular person is. I think the whole point of immigration is that it should be decided on an individual case. Giving a nursing grad a visa sounds like a great idea, but should all children of visa holders be given visas? I think there should be a few requirements.

causi 4y ago

One major reason: the green card backlog is immense – especially for immigrants from India; it can take decades for them even to have a chance to apply. This is bad even from the most hardcore selfish, anti-immigrant position: you want people moving in when they're educated and young, not when they're a decade or less away from retirement.

master_crab 4y ago
The current wait time for a green card for an Indian is on the order of 100-120 years. One of my reports, an engineer from Chennai, doesn’t want to renew his H1B in two years time and is considering either working from our office in Bangalore or beginning a startup in India. The dynamics have changed in the country. The startup scene and the maturity of mobile networks has made India a far more attractive place to live and work than it did 10 years ago. Most developed nations are going to regret the end of this brain drain.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Same here in Eastern Europe. I was on a contract in Switzerland in 2020 and while the pay was awesome, it wasn't sustainable - permanent employees in the same company make around 2-2.5x of what I do back home, but the cost of living (especially real estate) is 3-4x, so I have no incentive to migrate there. I mean, Switzerland is nice, just not that nice when you're an immigrant. I don't recall anyone from my former team staying either, despite getting job offers.
  - haspok 4y ago
    Except if you come from the EU and you have a job in Switzerland, you get a permit, more or less _by default_. You are even allowed to stay for 3 months just looking for a job! Good luck trying that in the US. Side-note: Having watched a number of "Benefits Britain" episodes recently, I realized that the main reason why the Swiss insist on a permit (for which a job is necessary - or a lot of money) is because certain folks from the East would immediately come and take advantage of the benefits system, as they did in the UK before Brexit. This behaviour was so alien to me that initially I did not understand the permit situation - why have it if I get it "automatically"? That's why.

nisegami 4y ago

My experience getting my student visa turned me off from remaining in the US after graduating, so if the goal was to reduce immigration by embodying Kafka, it succeeded in at least one case.

iLoveOncall 4y ago
Really? I studied there 1 year and the visa process was absolutely painless (6 years ago). A form to fill, an appointment at the embassy and it's done.
- nisegami 4y ago
  That's what I expected going in, but after a few weeks the status changed to indicate further processing without any information. I eventually ended up missing my first semester and having to beg them to let them and my scholarship me defer a semester basically when the semester had basically started. I eventually got my visa suddenly after about 4-5 months with no communication during that time from anyone on that side.

jan_g 4y ago

Interesting situation and the opposite of what would make sense. You spend taxpayer money to educate in integrate all these young people, then boot them out? Can't speak for the rest of the world, but the country I do have experience with has something called "naturalization process" (not sure if it's the right translation), where children of immigrant families are fast-tracked to citizenship when they turn 18. Which makes total sense to me.

kodyo 4y ago
Hand-wringing over "taxpayer money" is weird. I have no say when my money is confiscated. Why would I think I'd get a say about what the thieves spend it on? The system is working exactly the way the people with the most guns want it to.

pirate787 4y ago

A 20 year old is an adult, not a "kid"

Broken_Hippo 4y ago
If you don't have full access to adult life, you aren't an adult. You might not be a traditional "kid", but you certainly aren't an adult. At 20, you can't drink in the US. I don't think you can buy nicotine, and probably can't buy weed in legal places. Do they still deny rental cars to 20-year-olds, either outright or through fees too high for most 20-year-olds? Is this still even if their car insurance says they get a rental? Do some hotels still deny young folks lodging?
- AntoniusBlock 4y ago
  Being an adult is based on biological development, not whether you can drink or buy weed.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    What name would you give to the point where you have all the rights and opportunities of adults if adult is not the correct term?
    - AntoniusBlock 4y ago
      Adult is the correct term. I just don't think we should base adulthood on nebulous things like the ability to drink alcohol, smoke weed or rent hotel rooms, but rather to put a bigger emphasis on biology.
      - Joker_vD 4y ago
        Which brings us back to the original point: why are there those arbitrary restrictions put on biologically adult people?

jeroenhd 4y ago

This is incredibly unfair to the children of immigrants who have lived in the US all their lives. Leaving out the ethical discussion it doesn't even make sense financially, the government spends all this money on making these people productive members of society and then kicks them out the moment they start paying back into the system. I can't think of a single reason to maintain this system other than "foreign people bad". It's not even because of dumb racism, as the article highlights through the woman of Northern Irish descent who's white as can be; this is due to an arbitrary definition of "foreign" which I don't think any reasonable person would apply to someone who's lived in their country since they were 3. On the other hand, I wonder what some of their parents were thinking. Their children should definitely get a visa or even the ability to apply for citizenship, but the parents knew what problems their kids face once they become adults. Perhaps those waiting on the green card program couldn't have known because the huge wait times weren't a problem when they first arrived and they simply couldn't have known, but for those on temporary visas with no chance to get their children citizenship, they could and should have known. For decades they let their kids work towards an impossible future. Until immigration policies get fixed, I think it's incredibly unfair towards these children to be forced to go through this. I don't know what parents were expecting to happen when they took their young kids into a country they knew they couldn't stay in, but I can't help but feel they're part of the problem. I don't expect the problem to disappear any time soon either, with Trump aiming at a second presidency and (close enough to) half the American voting population still voting conservatively.

candiodari 4y ago
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but anyway. I am a parent with 3 kids in this situation (not in the US, but similar). I myself grew up in this situation, and so did my wife. We both got citizenships by the time we finished high school though. We didn't even care, barely realized, that was normal at the time. And, yes, we moved countries ourselves as well, after having kids. So first: you forget laws changed over the time these kids grew up. It used to be the case that just physically being in a country for 5-10 years used to be enough to get citizenship. Including in the US. Kids already here were not grandfathered into the old rules. So don't be too hard on these parents. The parents simply trusted that the state would actually follow the laws (which of course means NOT CHANGING THOSE LAWS, at least not for people already here). Yes trusting the state is a mistake. A big one. We've both had trouble getting into universities. We've also had trouble, for example, with youth services. Because a teacher that one kid had a conflict with reported them, after she (the kid) pointed out that she had in fact lived in a particular country, and she was pretty damn sure NZ was in fact in Asia/Australia, not in Europe. Plus that the local habits are in fact only marginally different from the US, that what she said was total bullshit. This is, apparently, a more serious situation than TWO kids getting arrested in the same school for dealing drugs. But yeah I get it: you can't trust the state. I don't know or understand what child protective services is for, what twisted logic they follow, but it sure as hell isn't protecting children. Man, actually seeing one such institution ... seeing the kids in there ... WTF. We were eventually forced to get the kids into a private school. Was that racism? I'm not even 100% sure. I think it was 90% that the teacher was a vengeful moron, totally unfit to teach children (not just for not knowing, but first and foremost for letting a conflict with a 7 year old get out of hand AND thoroughly make a fool of herself in the process, and not just once) and 10% racism. And, of course, CPS "hunting" healthy kids, and actively avoiding kids with actual problems (such details like, oh, getting caught with drugs at 13 years old. Those kids they actually avoid talking to) These days: if you want a decent job, a decent life, you will have fight against the state. School/the education system was never anyone's friend in my experience, but right now the relationships are outright adversarial. Schools, even private ones, cannot be trusted to give correct information about education opportunities to children (not saying private ones aren't 100x better, but they're not 100% accurate). They also purposefully create conflicts now, I don't even understand WHY. Immigration is just one aspect of that. Racism is the real fight: as pointed out in the article, getting into a decent school and then university, or even later figuring out which professors and employers/customers can be trusted, despite more and more racism is the tougher fight. Immigration is making sure a whole lot of forms are filled in 100% correctly at 10 different government offices, perfectly on time, and NEVER TRUSTING WHAT GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES SAY. Because some are actively trying to "advise" you into making a huge mistake. Always has been. We are still in the situation that if these kids can find a good job, they will be allowed to stay, and be able get citizenship in time if they want to. Of course that the laws deteriorated to this point is not a good sign, but what are you going to do, other than trust the state that has betrayed you already? You have no choice. But are these parents to blame? To some extent, I guess. They trusted the state's word. Big mistake. But I wouldn't worry too much about 95% of these kids. See what's happening to the health system. Education. Police forces. Give it 20 years and they will definitely not be the biggest victims of trusting the state, even if they do get asked to leave.

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WhiteBlueSkies 4y ago

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vsskanth 4y ago

I've observed any discussion about US immigration (no matter how relevant to tech) gets booted off the HN front page, probably deprioritized. I'm not sure if it's something others have noted too. I do wonder why though. Is it because it doesn't generate any new discussion and just attracts flame wars ?

seanw444 4y ago
Probably. It can't really go much further than: "No, it's not our responsibility to help these people, and the system pretty decent already." "Yes, it's our responsibility to help these people, and the system needs to be changed to support that." No real way to move people from these positions. I guess in short it's a morality thing. Personal belief. Not so much about technicality.

entropicgravity 4y ago

If all else fails apply to immigrate to Canada. Canada has a point system and anyone raised in the US would be right at the top of the list. Currently Canada is hoping for 400k immigrants per year so the chances are very good.