9 ms·

Social Security denies disability benefits based on list with jobs from 1977

114 points by standardUser 4y ago

EMM_386 4y ago
https://archive.vn/HgmCl https://archive.vn/HgmCl
count 4y ago
Don't those vocational experts testify under oath when they make claims that there are all of those jobs that don't actually exist anymore? Is that not perjury?
- ncphil 4y ago
  Yes. But they're testifying for the Government, the same Government that has sole prosecutorial authority in these cases.
  - count 4y ago
    I don't think it's a good idea to view 'the Government' as a monolithic entity. A local, elected DA could get super popular taking these experts to court over perjury concerns. That DA has no involvement in the social security process or agency at all.
    - cptskippy 4y ago
      But that doesn't really fit with the narrative that's being pushed about how the government is an inefficient monopoly.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      I spent majority of my career implementing ERPs for commercial companies. Then I helped implement one for Canadian government and was shocked (in my previous ignorance) how much more accurate and pragmatic it was to think of it not as "I'm implementing system for various departments in a single large organization" and more like "I'm implementing a single erp for Walmart, air Canada, Canadian tire, Costco, Ontario hydro, Toronto raptors, and 100 other companies with various systems, standards, processes, Interfaces, versions, data, speeds, attitudes, cultures and relationships". It reminds me of similar revelation when I realized that judge is not necessarily in cahoots with police, and in fact may be very humanly annoyed or persnickety with them. Humans are humans and relationships are infinitely complex.
- loeg 4y ago
  Perjury is essentially not prosecuted, especially against so-called expert witnesses. Essentially every party would accuse their opposing party's expert witnesses of lying about something under oath and if anyone actually suffered for it, it would become difficult to find expert witnesses. Or that's approximately the summary I heard from Popehat (Ken White) at some point.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    You also have to prove it. It's not perjury to make an incorrect statement, it's perjury to intentionally make an incorrect statement, so you have to demonstrate that it's willful, not just point out the incorrect statement. I imagine that the vocational findings are designed to appear mechanistic, whether they are or not (and stating a mechanistic outcome isn't an untrue statement).
miohtama 4y ago
It's the same Department of Labor that does this: > More than $163 billion in pandemic-era unemployment benefits was likely issued in error, with a big chunk due to fraud, according to a U.S. Department of Labor report. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/fraud-had-significant-role-in-163-billion-leak-from-pandemic-era-unemployment-system.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/fraud-had-significant-role-i... The amount of inenffiencies and fraud is quite astonishing.
- robryk 4y ago
  When talking about expected magnitudes of loss due to fraud, it's much more useful to talk in terms of relative (as opposed to absolute) magnitudes.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  This is the expected and typical behaviour of a monopoly organization after several decades.
  - asveikau 4y ago
    I really, really, really do not think this story gets any better with multiple private entities (startups perhaps?) competing to make determinations about disability pay. In fact that sounds horrible.
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      There is a huge number of other possible organizational solutions. Among the 200 other countries, I'd bet there are dozens who handle this better.
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  Private businesses are just as inefficient and wasteful, as anyone who's worked in a large corporate bureaucracy can attest. It's just that they have very little transparency, so you don't hear about it on the news.
clcaev 4y ago
Perhaps the burden of proof is inverse -- require SS to enroll people in the local job that they believe exists.
- jnovek 4y ago
  …and ensure their success in it by enforcing accommodation requirements. It’s very common for the SSA to claim that someone can do a particular job that their impairments would realistically prevent.
lisper 4y ago
About 15 years ago I made a documentary film about homeless people (https://graceofgodmovie.com https://graceofgodmovie.com). Two of my subjects had the same medical condition, a seizure disorder resulting from a head injury, which made it effectively impossible for them to work. (To quote one of my subjects, "It's not that I'm incapable of working, the problem is that I'm not reliable. Most people don't want an employee who might lapse into a seizure on the job...") Both applied for SSD. One was approved, the other denied, and so one ended up on the street and the other didn't. The judge who denied the first subject didn't give a reason, which became the basis for an appeal that went all the way to a federal circuit court. The appeal was denied.
- themaninthedark 4y ago
  I am trying to think of a job where someone with seizures could work safely and can't think of a good one...
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    ...software engineer?
    - er4hn 4y ago
      Nearly any other white collar, sit in front of a desk, job?
  - Siddarth1977 4y ago
    Was this supposed to be sarcasm? Because essentially any regular "office job" or "desk job" would work.
    - mgkimsal 4y ago
      How do you get to that job?
      - deleted 4y ago
happyopossum 4y ago
>But after spending at least $250 million since 2012 to build a directory of 21st century jobs, an internal fact sheet shows, Social Security is not using it, leaving antiquated vocational rules in place to determine whether disabled claimants win or lose. Social Security has estimated that the project’s initial cost will reach about $300 million, audits show. This is the kind of thing that makes it really hard for people to trust the US government with things like Healthcare. Some days I see the problems with healthcare in a much smaller country (Canada) and think those skeptics are right...
monero-xmr 4y ago
Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It's a lifetime disability. It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1, but if you earn over the disability limit you don't lose your credit permanently. This would encourage disabled people to try and find jobs that they can do despite their disability without the fear of being ruined if the job doesn't pan out. Over time this would help transition the "permanently" disabled into being self-sufficient and make them feel happier and less of a burden on society. People want to feel that they have agency and contribute.
- ranger47 4y ago
  Hmm, this is not correct. I work as a employment specialist for individuals with developmental disabilities, and they rarely, if ever, lose SSI or SSDI if they start working, so long as they stay under certain thresholds (hours, wage and assets). We work closely with benefits counselors to figure out where the line is with each individual, then leverage our relationships with employers to help said individual hit that sweet spot where they are working as much as allowed while still able to collect. This always results in the individual making far more than just collecting disability alone, even if the payments are reduced. The idea of "all or nothing" is a myth that prevents a lot of folks on disability who want to work from doing so. If you happen to be such an individual, please reach out to a benefits counselor in your state and set up a meeting.
  - adinb 4y ago
    Are you referring to Social Security benefits counselors? They are notoriously difficult to get ahold of (in NM); you have to go in person and wait in a large room for (usually) hours with several hundred people. And then what you’re told varies depending on the person.
  - watersb 4y ago
    A close friend of ours tried to work part time, reported everything, worked with job counselor etc. but after six months was unable to continue work. It took her another six months to get it all straightened out. It's risky. The case was well documented, a lifetime of cerebral palsy and complications, seizures. And yet the disability benefits were very brittle.
FpUser 4y ago
I think that the judge who had rendered this verdict should apply for disability themselves. Mental disability that is.
mgkimsal 4y ago
> writing that he had “job opportunities” in three occupations that are nearly obsolete and agreeing with the expert’s dubious claim that 130,000 positions were still available sorting nuts, inspecting dowels and processing eggs. Whether 'nut sorting' is an actual job or not seems less important than "are there any nut sorting jobs open within a reasonable distance from the applicant?". Someone with a disability may need familial support. Telling someone they have to move - possibly their entire family - across country to take some bullshit minimum wage job which may go away 6 months from now to avoid paying out some reasonable social security disability claim is ... nuts. And they don't need sorting.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  Or someone like me, who is trained for a very specialized profession and then ended up disabled right out of school. I got MS my last semester of graduate school, so I was then stuck in the 'need to live near family for support but the career I trained for would require me to move' problem. There are usually 1 or 2 positions posted per year within this area in my field. I sucked it up after a mental breakdown and accepted that field is closed to me now, but I had tech/programming skills to fall back on. It's not how I like/want to make a living (there's a reason I didn't go for a CS degree) but most people in my situation don't even have the option.
duxup 4y ago
This certainly needs to be fixed. Having said that when I think of job titles today and the “Senior Full Stack … Recruiter” who contacted me. I don’t know what would replace it.
dbg31415 4y ago
And it is so hard to get back on the Disabilities list once you are removed. My dad is in his 80s. He has an "90% Disability" in the form of hearing loss due to being in the army and manning missile tubes for his 20s. He kept us safe from the Russians, and he has a lot of great stories about German Women, and German Spies, and Russian Spies... to hear him tell the stories of being part of the first American military force in Germany since WW2... I know he really enjoyed it. But, training German soldiers, and running missile tests with loud sirens, left him pretty much deaf as a rock. Age didn't improve the condition. Long story short, Dad was almost 80, and I had bought probably 4 sets of hearing aids before I realized, "Hey can't we get the VA to pay for these?" And yes, turns out we could -- but it took over a year of pestering the right people to get him qualified. The funny point here... Dad has a really hard time with automated phone systems. High-pitched voices, especially. And all these systems use female voices... When left on his own, he couldn't move the needle. "Press 7 to schedule an appointment..." yeah -- he can't hear to press the right button. So it took a lot of my time. Lots of patience with the VA... and we got it. The first thing we had to sign was a form saying, "No back pay, not responsible for anything in the past. Not gonna cover any past bills." OK, fine. Then Dad offered to help a neighbor and help out at the cash register at a local gas station / bait shop over some holiday weekend. And he sold the guy at the store a horse trailer and an old pickup. And, not thinking, he just got one check for the "wages" and equipment. Anyway all hell broke loose. Like the same people that take a year or more to get you in the door, will come down on you in a matter of weeks if you mess up. And because Dad couldn't deal with the phone calls, "Press 8 to speak to a real person to explain your claim..." he just ignored them. Dumb on his part. So then 2 years later, we got Dad's disability payments back. They didn't offer to back-pay for the time they mistakenly kicked him off. Total shit show how hard they make it. And the use of all this automated shit, when they know he's "90% disabled for hearing" -- no way around any of it. It's all pretty garbage. Best thing to do is just not need help. =P
richardfontana 4y ago
https://archive.md/2022.12.27-202725/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/27/social-security-job-titles-disabled-applicants-obsolete/ https://archive.md/2022.12.27-202725/https://www.washingtonp...
beckeley 4y ago
If you medical records from doctors they aren’t good enough for SSDI. SSDI takes years and your money to jump through the hoops and apeal after apeal. Their game is to discourage you so you go away. Denial is the name of the game so people at SSDI have jobs.
Stratoscope 4y ago
Non-paywall versions: https://wapo.st/3vhsJ8J https://wapo.st/3vhsJ8J or https://archive.vn/OCh2P https://archive.vn/OCh2P This is worth reading for the photo of the pneumatic tube operator, the nut sorters, and the list of job titles. Click "+ Show 117 more" at the bottom of the list to see them all. I have a vivid memory from when I was a kid in Oregon around 1960 and my mom took me to the downtown department store: the pneumatic tubes. At the checkout counter, your order slip and check or cash would go into a carrier and whoosh up to the accounting department on the second floor. Then another whoosh and you got your change and stamped receipt. A few of my favorite jobs from the list: Cutter-and-Paster, Press Clippings Getterer Telegraph-Service Rater Vamp-Strap Ironer Wafer Breaker, Semiconductors

114 points by standardUser 4y ago

https://archive.vn/HgmCl https://archive.vn/HgmCl

Don't those vocational experts testify under oath when they make claims that there are all of those jobs that don't actually exist anymore? Is that not perjury?

ncphil 4y ago
Yes. But they're testifying for the Government, the same Government that has sole prosecutorial authority in these cases.
- count 4y ago
  I don't think it's a good idea to view 'the Government' as a monolithic entity. A local, elected DA could get super popular taking these experts to court over perjury concerns. That DA has no involvement in the social security process or agency at all.
  - cptskippy 4y ago
    But that doesn't really fit with the narrative that's being pushed about how the government is an inefficient monopoly.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    I spent majority of my career implementing ERPs for commercial companies. Then I helped implement one for Canadian government and was shocked (in my previous ignorance) how much more accurate and pragmatic it was to think of it not as "I'm implementing system for various departments in a single large organization" and more like "I'm implementing a single erp for Walmart, air Canada, Canadian tire, Costco, Ontario hydro, Toronto raptors, and 100 other companies with various systems, standards, processes, Interfaces, versions, data, speeds, attitudes, cultures and relationships". It reminds me of similar revelation when I realized that judge is not necessarily in cahoots with police, and in fact may be very humanly annoyed or persnickety with them. Humans are humans and relationships are infinitely complex.
loeg 4y ago
Perjury is essentially not prosecuted, especially against so-called expert witnesses. Essentially every party would accuse their opposing party's expert witnesses of lying about something under oath and if anyone actually suffered for it, it would become difficult to find expert witnesses. Or that's approximately the summary I heard from Popehat (Ken White) at some point.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  You also have to prove it. It's not perjury to make an incorrect statement, it's perjury to intentionally make an incorrect statement, so you have to demonstrate that it's willful, not just point out the incorrect statement. I imagine that the vocational findings are designed to appear mechanistic, whether they are or not (and stating a mechanistic outcome isn't an untrue statement).

miohtama 4y ago

It's the same Department of Labor that does this: > More than $163 billion in pandemic-era unemployment benefits was likely issued in error, with a big chunk due to fraud, according to a U.S. Department of Labor report. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/fraud-had-significant-role-in-163-billion-leak-from-pandemic-era-unemployment-system.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/27/fraud-had-significant-role-i... The amount of inenffiencies and fraud is quite astonishing.

robryk 4y ago
When talking about expected magnitudes of loss due to fraud, it's much more useful to talk in terms of relative (as opposed to absolute) magnitudes.
BurningFrog 4y ago
This is the expected and typical behaviour of a monopoly organization after several decades.
- asveikau 4y ago
  I really, really, really do not think this story gets any better with multiple private entities (startups perhaps?) competing to make determinations about disability pay. In fact that sounds horrible.
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    There is a huge number of other possible organizational solutions. Among the 200 other countries, I'd bet there are dozens who handle this better.
jasonhansel 4y ago
Private businesses are just as inefficient and wasteful, as anyone who's worked in a large corporate bureaucracy can attest. It's just that they have very little transparency, so you don't hear about it on the news.

clcaev 4y ago

Perhaps the burden of proof is inverse -- require SS to enroll people in the local job that they believe exists.

jnovek 4y ago
…and ensure their success in it by enforcing accommodation requirements. It’s very common for the SSA to claim that someone can do a particular job that their impairments would realistically prevent.

lisper 4y ago

About 15 years ago I made a documentary film about homeless people (https://graceofgodmovie.com https://graceofgodmovie.com). Two of my subjects had the same medical condition, a seizure disorder resulting from a head injury, which made it effectively impossible for them to work. (To quote one of my subjects, "It's not that I'm incapable of working, the problem is that I'm not reliable. Most people don't want an employee who might lapse into a seizure on the job...") Both applied for SSD. One was approved, the other denied, and so one ended up on the street and the other didn't. The judge who denied the first subject didn't give a reason, which became the basis for an appeal that went all the way to a federal circuit court. The appeal was denied.

themaninthedark 4y ago
I am trying to think of a job where someone with seizures could work safely and can't think of a good one...
- bin_bash 4y ago
  ...software engineer?
  - er4hn 4y ago
    Nearly any other white collar, sit in front of a desk, job?
- Siddarth1977 4y ago
  Was this supposed to be sarcasm? Because essentially any regular "office job" or "desk job" would work.
  - mgkimsal 4y ago
    How do you get to that job?
    - deleted 4y ago

happyopossum 4y ago

>But after spending at least $250 million since 2012 to build a directory of 21st century jobs, an internal fact sheet shows, Social Security is not using it, leaving antiquated vocational rules in place to determine whether disabled claimants win or lose. Social Security has estimated that the project’s initial cost will reach about $300 million, audits show. This is the kind of thing that makes it really hard for people to trust the US government with things like Healthcare. Some days I see the problems with healthcare in a much smaller country (Canada) and think those skeptics are right...

monero-xmr 4y ago

Biggest issue with disability is you cannot start working again, even as an experiment, without losing your disability. It's a lifetime disability. It should instead be a credit, where earning income replaces the benefit $1 for $1, but if you earn over the disability limit you don't lose your credit permanently. This would encourage disabled people to try and find jobs that they can do despite their disability without the fear of being ruined if the job doesn't pan out. Over time this would help transition the "permanently" disabled into being self-sufficient and make them feel happier and less of a burden on society. People want to feel that they have agency and contribute.

ranger47 4y ago
Hmm, this is not correct. I work as a employment specialist for individuals with developmental disabilities, and they rarely, if ever, lose SSI or SSDI if they start working, so long as they stay under certain thresholds (hours, wage and assets). We work closely with benefits counselors to figure out where the line is with each individual, then leverage our relationships with employers to help said individual hit that sweet spot where they are working as much as allowed while still able to collect. This always results in the individual making far more than just collecting disability alone, even if the payments are reduced. The idea of "all or nothing" is a myth that prevents a lot of folks on disability who want to work from doing so. If you happen to be such an individual, please reach out to a benefits counselor in your state and set up a meeting.
- adinb 4y ago
  Are you referring to Social Security benefits counselors? They are notoriously difficult to get ahold of (in NM); you have to go in person and wait in a large room for (usually) hours with several hundred people. And then what you’re told varies depending on the person.
- watersb 4y ago
  A close friend of ours tried to work part time, reported everything, worked with job counselor etc. but after six months was unable to continue work. It took her another six months to get it all straightened out. It's risky. The case was well documented, a lifetime of cerebral palsy and complications, seizures. And yet the disability benefits were very brittle.

FpUser 4y ago

I think that the judge who had rendered this verdict should apply for disability themselves. Mental disability that is.

mgkimsal 4y ago

> writing that he had “job opportunities” in three occupations that are nearly obsolete and agreeing with the expert’s dubious claim that 130,000 positions were still available sorting nuts, inspecting dowels and processing eggs. Whether 'nut sorting' is an actual job or not seems less important than "are there any nut sorting jobs open within a reasonable distance from the applicant?". Someone with a disability may need familial support. Telling someone they have to move - possibly their entire family - across country to take some bullshit minimum wage job which may go away 6 months from now to avoid paying out some reasonable social security disability claim is ... nuts. And they don't need sorting.

Mezzie 4y ago
Or someone like me, who is trained for a very specialized profession and then ended up disabled right out of school. I got MS my last semester of graduate school, so I was then stuck in the 'need to live near family for support but the career I trained for would require me to move' problem. There are usually 1 or 2 positions posted per year within this area in my field. I sucked it up after a mental breakdown and accepted that field is closed to me now, but I had tech/programming skills to fall back on. It's not how I like/want to make a living (there's a reason I didn't go for a CS degree) but most people in my situation don't even have the option.

duxup 4y ago

This certainly needs to be fixed. Having said that when I think of job titles today and the “Senior Full Stack … Recruiter” who contacted me. I don’t know what would replace it.

dbg31415 4y ago

And it is so hard to get back on the Disabilities list once you are removed. My dad is in his 80s. He has an "90% Disability" in the form of hearing loss due to being in the army and manning missile tubes for his 20s. He kept us safe from the Russians, and he has a lot of great stories about German Women, and German Spies, and Russian Spies... to hear him tell the stories of being part of the first American military force in Germany since WW2... I know he really enjoyed it. But, training German soldiers, and running missile tests with loud sirens, left him pretty much deaf as a rock. Age didn't improve the condition. Long story short, Dad was almost 80, and I had bought probably 4 sets of hearing aids before I realized, "Hey can't we get the VA to pay for these?" And yes, turns out we could -- but it took over a year of pestering the right people to get him qualified. The funny point here... Dad has a really hard time with automated phone systems. High-pitched voices, especially. And all these systems use female voices... When left on his own, he couldn't move the needle. "Press 7 to schedule an appointment..." yeah -- he can't hear to press the right button. So it took a lot of my time. Lots of patience with the VA... and we got it. The first thing we had to sign was a form saying, "No back pay, not responsible for anything in the past. Not gonna cover any past bills." OK, fine. Then Dad offered to help a neighbor and help out at the cash register at a local gas station / bait shop over some holiday weekend. And he sold the guy at the store a horse trailer and an old pickup. And, not thinking, he just got one check for the "wages" and equipment. Anyway all hell broke loose. Like the same people that take a year or more to get you in the door, will come down on you in a matter of weeks if you mess up. And because Dad couldn't deal with the phone calls, "Press 8 to speak to a real person to explain your claim..." he just ignored them. Dumb on his part. So then 2 years later, we got Dad's disability payments back. They didn't offer to back-pay for the time they mistakenly kicked him off. Total shit show how hard they make it. And the use of all this automated shit, when they know he's "90% disabled for hearing" -- no way around any of it. It's all pretty garbage. Best thing to do is just not need help. =P

richardfontana 4y ago

https://archive.md/2022.12.27-202725/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/27/social-security-job-titles-disabled-applicants-obsolete/ https://archive.md/2022.12.27-202725/https://www.washingtonp...

beckeley 4y ago

If you medical records from doctors they aren’t good enough for SSDI. SSDI takes years and your money to jump through the hoops and apeal after apeal. Their game is to discourage you so you go away. Denial is the name of the game so people at SSDI have jobs.

Stratoscope 4y ago

Non-paywall versions: https://wapo.st/3vhsJ8J https://wapo.st/3vhsJ8J or https://archive.vn/OCh2P https://archive.vn/OCh2P This is worth reading for the photo of the pneumatic tube operator, the nut sorters, and the list of job titles. Click "+ Show 117 more" at the bottom of the list to see them all. I have a vivid memory from when I was a kid in Oregon around 1960 and my mom took me to the downtown department store: the pneumatic tubes. At the checkout counter, your order slip and check or cash would go into a carrier and whoosh up to the accounting department on the second floor. Then another whoosh and you got your change and stamped receipt. A few of my favorite jobs from the list: Cutter-and-Paster, Press Clippings Getterer Telegraph-Service Rater Vamp-Strap Ironer Wafer Breaker, Semiconductors