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I can vouch for this approach. I lived in the territory of a couple of ravens (close relatives of crows; just as smart and twice as large) and it took me maybe
by wpietri 4y ago
I can vouch for this approach. I lived in the territory of a couple of ravens (close relatives of crows; just as smart and twice as large) and it took me maybe 18 months to build a close relationship.
I started out just talking to them and throwing whole peanuts (roasted, unsalted) on the ground while I was doing it. They looked at me warily and did not come close. Later on, the peanuts would disappear, but I was never sure why. This period lasted months.
Eventually they would come down when I threw a peanut and approach it warily. If it was closer than 15 or 20 feet to me, I'd have to back away to give them enough room. Then I could throw another peanut near (but not at!) them and they'd walk over to get it.
After many more months of this (six, I'd guess) they were somewhat less wary of me and would hang out on our back fence sometimes. So we worked out a ritual. I would place a piece of food on the fence rail and back away; they'd hop over and get it. As he suggested, I would talk with them as I did it. I'm sure the words didn't matter, but I suspect the tone did, and it helped me focus on being soothing with voice, body language, and behavior.
Toward the end of my time there we got so that one of them would take high-value food, like a chicken bone with bits of meat left on it, straight out of my hand. That one, who we called George, would happily sit pretty close to me after eating. Out of arm's reach, of course; they were still a bit wary. But it would settle down and chill out. Truly a magical experience to just hang out with a big, smart bird like that. You looking at one another, both trying to figure out exactly what the other's deal is. And me, at least, knowing, that I'd never fully know.
- prox 4y agoMy amateur theory is that talking makes you less likely to be a predator. You basically say “here I am”, Predators tend to be quiet and sneak up on their prey. I think the tone does indeed help somewhat in my experience.
- lisper 4y agoYes, of course. Your tone has to convey not only, "I am not a predator" but also "I do not perceive you as a threat, and so the purpose of my vocalization is not to scare you away because I perceive you as a threat, and if you come close I am likely to try to harm you in order to defend myself." In nature, the Bayesian prior on an entity that is not a member of your species, or even your tribe, seeking an interaction with you that will ultimately be to your benefit is very, very low.
- 082349872349872 4y ago> the Bayesian prior ... is very, very low. Felis Catus: OK, stubclaws, listen up. You're going to toil the fields and by the sweat of your brow fill up a barn to attract my mice. Got that? Agriculture, Architecture, the works? Good. I'd explain to you how to make laser pointers for chasing, but I doubt you'd understand ... your kind always has to work things out for themselves, anyway. Now go forth and do your best to hold this covenant, you inflexible hairless monkey.
- lisper 4y agoYou owe me a new keyboard ;-)
- tareqak 4y agoFelis Catus: Correction, human. It was always my keyboard. You were just using it without my permission, and I reappropriated it when I felt like it. Now, go get me some wet cat food for your slanderous outburst before I send you to the cat food factory permanently.
- polishdude20 4y agoIs this from a book?
- numeri 4y agoI'd read it, if so!
- 082349872349872 4y agoSorry, nope. Had one of my replies called a "nonsensical answer produced by an AI" in a different thread, so I done did my best to outpace the machine with that one. When 082... was jus' a little baby, sittin' on their papa's knee Well they picked up a keyboard and a little CRT Said keyboard gon' be the death of me, lord, lord Keyboard gon' be the death of me https://youtu.be/lY_s42QvOTs?t=50 https://youtu.be/lY_s42QvOTs?t=50
- 082349872349872 4y agoI have an amateur theory that strange wildlife, unlike strange people, are made much more comfortable by avoiding eye contact. Parent comment would explain this observation: predators gaze upon their prey. (flipping the arrows around, I've seen the advice to dance tango, not so much with "snappiness" as is popularly supposed, but in a predatory manner: slow stalking, interspersed with rapid pounces)
- eyelidlessness 4y agoThis is definitely true for dogs/canids, eye contact is a signal of dominance and/or aggression. It’s common advice to soften your glance if you’re approaching an unfamiliar or potentially aggressive dog. It’s also helpful to make more direct eye contact when establishing you’re in charge when training them. I’ve also noticed with many birds that they prefer indirect attention. This includes not just eye contact, but pointing a camera (or really anything) in their direction. Which unfortunately means I have very little photographic evidence of the many times I’ve had birds just hanging around being pleasant companions for a while.
- mcbits 4y agoThe birds around here don't stick around long enough to let me earn their trust, but I can get pretty close to the deer, rabbits, and squirrels just by pointing the camera off to my side so I'm standing perpendicular and appear to be focused on stuff on the ground instead of them.
- eyelidlessness 4y agoOh damn I meant to mention rabbits! At least the ones around me don’t even mind if I point a camera at them so long as I’m looking another way. So I have lots of good blurry or poorly aimed rabbit photos. They really do seem to believe that if they go totally still nothing can see them until proven otherwise. And maybe they’re right, I almost always have to tell my pup “there’s a bun!” And even then it’s usually after I’ve directed her chase before she sees the fleeing things.
- oasisbob 4y agoMakes sense to me. Crows have caught me tree climbing under them during their evening flights to the communal roost, the result was always a chaotic mess. They just couldn't leave it alone. Without fail, eventually one crow would notice and start the alarm call, then the hundreds of crows arriving at the situation would break off flight and begin mobbing as well. I must have seemed very novel and sneaky. https://youtu.be/RuOVY4r9ipg https://youtu.be/RuOVY4r9ipg
- TedDoesntTalk 4y agoGreat video. Were you scared? I once walked under some trees in which many crows were roosting. Scared the crap out of me. I thought they were going to attack. Maybe they had young and wanted to protect them, I don’t know, but I ran.
- oasisbob 4y agoThanks. It was a bit scary the first time, but they keep their distance. No resident crows in this grove, afaik. Sometimes I wonder if I'm already being recognized as "that weird tree guy", even on the ground, and what it would take to test that.
- tomxor 4y agoI sometimes end up crossing paths with birds while rock climbing. You try to avoid them where possible (especially if they are protected/endangered) but it's not always possible to spot them from the ground. Peregrines will warn you by swooping past you really fast, even if you are 10s of meters to the side of their nest. It can sometimes end up in a weird kind of stand off, where they can see your path is through their nest or perch but they don't really know what your intent is so you just end up staring at each other. The most aggressive I came across was a big seagull, which I'm pretty sure was protecting it's eggs since it clearly wasn't going to move, thankfully that line was easy enough that I could just figure out an alternate way around. Climbing you also sometimes get to see some of the horrific remains from the predators - One time towards the end of covid lockdowns some peregrines had reclaimed a pinnacle due to the unusual absence of climbers. When I got to the top it looked like a sacrificial temple, filled with the carcases of all the other bird species, not to mention the bees nest en route, that one was a mini adventure.
- busyant 4y ago> talking makes you less likely to be a predator For a second I thought I was dead. But, when I heard all the noise, I knew they were cops. Only cops talk that way. If they'd been wiseguys, I wouldn't have heard a thing. I would've been dead. -Henry Hill, Goodfellas
- agumonkey 4y agoyeah, the more information you give the less danger others feel
- survirtual 4y agoI love this. Thank you for sharing. I’ve always found crows and ravens to be majestic birds, even with the reputations they have. Thank you for being kind to them.
- godelski 4y agoI talk to them and throw cashews at them from my balcony. They have gotten pretty close in a matter of weeks, despite having a cat (she is scared of them tbh and I think they know). I also leave some nuts on the railing near my back door for them to grab (make sure they watch me place them) so they can get them when I go inside (my cat loves watching this and the little birds). Though sometimes they do a quick grab if there's some distance. It really is a lot of fun and to watch their behavior patterns. For example, there will often only be one or two on the ground and checking things out while more in the trees or roofs. Once they realize those two are not dying from the food you feed there's a few caws and more come down. The spotters are the ones that make the quick grabs at my railing and it took a bit for this to happen so I think they trust me some. In a different place I lived one crow came right up to me, just out of arm's reach, for sunflower seeds. They really are smart and friendly creatures. They'll even talk back a bit.
- h4x0rr 4y agoI misread the entire thread as cows instead of crows. I was wondering how cows are supposed to hop on fence rails xD
- unrealp 4y agoYou are not alone. I did the same for some unknown reason :D
- rozularen 4y agohaha me too but I'd say I have a bit of dyslexia
- unrealp 4y agoon serious note, interesting. i have blind spots in the eye, due to an auto immune type condition. since the blind spots are near central vision, brain tends to 'fill' or predict whats there. so i tend to sometimes misread words.
- gonehome 4y agoIf you have a pet parrot you can get a more personal glimpse of their intelligence. We have a cockatiel and it’s interesting to get to know another intelligent species from a different branch of the tree.
- vips7L 4y agoYou will also get a more personal glimpse at their tyranny. I type this as my conure is having a fit because I wouldn’t share any French fries with him.
- janlaureys 4y agoI just spat out my tea reading this comment.
- m463 4y agoHave you taught your conure to dance? They have rhythm and can dance the smile off the face of smug dog owners. ;)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bothandeach 4y agoNever know. And so interesting that they are dinosaurs, literally. They will probably win in the end with our own oh-so-clever Warming pushing us out. Dinos the winners.
- fsckboy 4y ago> I can vouch for this approach. I lived in the territory of a couple of ravens (close relatives of crows; just as smart and twice as large) Here's the thing. You're suggesting a raven is as intelligent as a crow. Are they in the same family? Yes, Corvus. But scientists who study crows, will tell say, specifically, crows are smarter than ravens. But it would be okay for either of us to just admit we're wrong, you know? https://crowadvice.com/crow-vs-raven-intelligence/ https://crowadvice.com/crow-vs-raven-intelligence/
- tgtweak 4y agoMy grandmother used to do the same with squirrels and chipmunks - but only leave the nuts out for the first few times, then she'd bring them back in after waiting for a bit. They immediately figured it out and would come down to get them on future attempts. I imagine the same would work with crows.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y agoI belong to an ancestor worshiping culture(தமிழ்|Tamizh), Crows have very high reverence here as they're believed to be carrying our ancestors soul. So each day many people here feed the crows first with rice before breakfast and on new moon day many undergo fasting, Make special food and give it to the crows first. Obviously crows , Extraordinarily intelligent as they are keep perfect timings for their food and seems to know the lunar phases; No wonder we revere them.
- hzay 4y agoTamilian here. There was a crow that would come and insist upon getting Biscuits only from my mother, pre covid. It would sit on the balcony handrail and caw until she goes to the fridge, then quietly wait for the biscuit, take it from her hand and leave. If she's out of Biscuits and gives it something else it would become quite offended, refuse the food and sit there cawing pitieously. I learned that Biscuits are bad for them and told her. She tried to change to curd rice - it started to accept that if it was hot and fresh. Of course like you said, we caw for them and give them food during festivals and anniversaries of deaths of ancestors.
- Abishek_Muthian 4y agoNice happy story. Thanks for sharing.
- wpietri 4y agoThanks to both of you for posting about this. I love both the broad context and the specific story.