16 ms·

Non-replaceable battery? Not if this proposed EU law passes

174 points by rolph 4y ago

greggarious 4y ago
Many people get a phone case partly to add some heft to ultrathin phones, it makes sense to mandate this, and possibly an SD slot alongside the (good) USB regulation: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
- rolph 4y ago
  a very serious point , is what can be done about a damaged/swollen battery. you used to be able to remove it, and deal with it safely. now , when glued in, if it starts to go thermal, you cant remove it, bare minimum your phone goes mission impossible, large chance of injury or starting a fire. all batteries should be removable, for basic product safety. im pretty sure a federaly mandated recall of all such nonremoveable battery items is legally possible here in US, but how is the will to do it going to be born.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    If a LiPo battery goes off on a device that’s screwed together, you’re not getting that battery out until it’s done anyway, glue or no glue.
    - rolph 4y ago
      exactly, that is a safety issue, vs the risk to manufacturers of telemetry loss if your phone isnt always on. it shouldnt just be ~possible~ to remove a battery, it should be expedient, as in, push a thumbnail into the slot and pry lightly, or similar to FRS radio batteries [push on a catch, lift battery out]
    - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
      I can have the battery out of my waterproof phone in <10 seconds, using only my fingernail.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        At the risk of stating the obvious: if your phone is about to explode get it away from you (or you from it), lest you lose more than your phone (or your fingernail). Lithium Ion going bad is an excellent time to have proper respect for chemical burns.
- simonh 4y ago
  Are there any other features I don’t need and tradeoffs I would not like to make you feel like mandating in the products I need while you’re at it?
  - oplaadpunt 4y ago
    Yes, I would want them software rootable by law. It's my phone, if I'm prepared to lose warranty, it should be my decision to change files internally.
  - Certhas 4y ago
    You are not the one making the trade offs. The manufacturer is. When they realize that certain anti-consumer features that are not readily appreciated at the point of purchase are possible, they get implemented, even if the benefits you get in return are minimal and often more fig leave than anything else. Replaceable batteries and SD Cards are prototypical for features that extend a phones useful life, but whose absence doesn't get punished because our purchase decisions don't factor in things we might wish to have in two years time. And manufacturers have no incentive to extend useful life. If long term consumer preferences really would drive phone design then why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case?
    - brookst 4y ago
      > why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case? I don’t use a case, and I resent you supporting the use of government power to force me to make a tradeoff that I have chosen against. Cases as an option mean the same phone can serve everyone, and people can choose to use a case or not. You are literally asking why phone manufacturers choose to serve a bigger market rather than a smaller one. As someone else asked, what other purchasing decisions that I make should be illegal in the name of forcing every product to conform to your personal preferences rather than letting consumers like me decide what we want?
      - Certhas 4y ago
PlotCitizen 4y ago
I would prefer to keep to option to at least be able to buy a more water resistant phone
- rolph 4y ago
  this can, and is done often, no glue needed, just O-rings and small aperature sizes, so water stays out due to surface tension. GPSers and FRS radios have done this for a long time. cell phones did this until later in the "slim is in " marketing campaign.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    Is there a recommended maintenance schedule for replacing or lubricating these O-rings? I'm guessing that most owners of waterproof handheld radios are more 'handy' than the general population.
    - rolph 4y ago
      depends on materials and environment, most people can fingernail them out and push a new one in. they can vary from self destruct, to immortal service life depending on material, and use.
    - lb1lf 4y ago
      Having a number of portable V/UHF radios, GPS receivers and assorted other bits of outdoor electronic gear, I have had a tiny bit of acid-free vaseline on any gasket or O-ring I could find annually. Has worked a charm so far. (With today's rubber being what it is, I guess I could safely at least double that interval - but it only takes a few minutes, and the vaseline is effectively free, so...
- idle_zealot 4y ago
  I'm sure it's technically possible to build a phone where the battery is easily replaceable and is highly water resistant. Difficult? Sure, but possible. If this regulation really does lead phone manufacturers to go back to the days of hand-removable backs or slide-out batteries then I'm sure they'll be investigating in R&D to get their IPwhatever ratings back.
qwertyuiop_ 4y ago
Why not pass EU phone specs on How tall and wide should the phone be. Max brightness Slipperiness Volume Whether it’s round at the corners How thin the phone should be Whether those that are sold in EU should have all the parts made in member countries just like Airbus
- dainiusse 4y ago
  I think this is unnecessary criticism. Battery replacement is about sustainability. Especially when corps tend to enable throttling.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    Phones have been getting better every year, and with it, new features and utilities enabled, throttling or not. No one (few outside HN) wants an old phone. People want the new features that are enabled by new hardware. The effective life of a phone is not limited by a battery but the remaining hardware.
    - ZWoz 4y ago
      Lot of iPhone users seem mention longevity as main feature. I personally know both Android and iPhone users, who like to have phone longer than 2 years. Having user changeable battery doesn't take away your freedom to change phone more often, but now you have phone with aftermarket value.
    - nickthegreek 4y ago
      Phones are good enough that they feature sets last 6 years, while the batteries don’t. Plenty of people don’t want to drop $800 on a new iPhone every few years when their old one works fine. And those who do move their old iPhone to the secondary market. The secondary market exists because contrary to your statement, plenty of people are fine with old phones.
- gtvwill 4y ago
  Lol,EU fighting unnecessary waste and here we have people butthurt? Lol spud we literally regulate people for building shit products that are harmful in every other sector, health, food, you name it. Why should tech be any different? And yes your e-waste that's completely unnecessary just because your company wants to make shit decisions isn't acceptable. It's harmful and there's no reason why it should be allowed. Stoked the EU are doing this finally. Get wrecked crappy designers (looking at you apple).
n8cpdx 4y ago
[flagged]
- geewee 4y ago
  That sounds ominously like a suggestion that the US should use military force.
the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
I really hope that the industry will decide on their own to bring replaceable batteries back. I have accumulated so many old devices over the years and if you stop using them regularly they take less than a year to degrade to the point where the device is perma bricked and in some cases the batteries become unsafe. I wanted to give my son my older iPhone I haven’t used in 5 years and it’s not able to hold a charge at all any more. That wasn’t the case when I stopped using it.
- criddell 4y ago
  Why not have Apple replace the battery? Surprisingly, it isn’t that expensive.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    I did. My issue is more with the fact that many people keep old devices around stashed away which over time can turn into fire risks.
    - CamperBob2 4y ago
      Are there any good sources of statistics that back up this concern?
      - Rebelgecko 4y ago
        I'm not sure about just sitting in a drawer, but 40% of garbage fires are caused by lithium ion batteries Source- https://apps.cce.csus.edu/sites/CalRecycle/usedoil18/speakers/uploads/5A.%20Kobold_CalRecycle%20HHW%20Conference%20CPSC%20Presentation%20Battery%20(Final).PDF https://apps.cce.csus.edu/sites/CalRecycle/usedoil18/speaker...
        jacquesm 4y ago
        That's not quite the same thing as sitting still in a drawer though. Lithium-Ion batteries really don't like to be dropped or crushed. Basically anything that is a threat to the mechanical integrity of the cell should be really avoided.
blfr 4y ago
None of the phones I had to toss in the last few years were due to battery giving out. It was because they become too slow or weren't updated by the manufacturer. Well, one stopped charging and wasn't popular enough for local shops to have parts for it. But that was likely wiring/port, not the battery itself.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  That's coming to an end. There's only so much a cell phone needs to do. I think a Note 4, which is 8 years old at this point is still a perfectly functional phone, with only software related issues. And the battery is replaceable.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    My Note 4 worked for years, then for my SO, then again for me a while. In the end we only had to change the battery once and sold it to someone else, still serviceable if a bit slow. Every form factor since has been a pain in comparison.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Small nit - using a phone as a phone (voice calls) is fairly uncommon usecase anymore (speaking as a 40+ any my cohort, not even mentioning the younger generations). SMS et.al. is quite common still. But most non-SMS apps will probably not work on 4-6 year old phones anymore.
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      Why wouldn't they work? What stops Signal or Discord from working on a Note 4?
      - pantalaimon 4y ago
        Usually it's when there are no more OS updates and the latest versions of those Apps no longer work with the old OS. This can be somewhat mitigated if you have a popular device that is supported by 3rd party ROMs.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
PaulKeeble 4y ago
Batteries are a consumable item, they only last a year or two before they have degraded significantly, whereas the phone will almost certainly work for years. With open source firmwares it could last a decade or more and indeed in the past I extended mobile phones for a long time that had replaceable batteries. Its become increasingly hard to avoid manufacturers planned obsolescence at a time where the improvements in phone performance has been diminishing.
- ghaff 4y ago
  >they only last a year or two As an iPhone user for more than 10 years, that just isn't true in my case. When I upgrade after 3-4 years, battery has never been the reason. The battery of the upgraded phone that I'm using for some other purpose does tend to give out after another few years but that's hardly 1-2 years total.
sib 4y ago
How do we all move to EU for a bit and vote this down?
- foreverCarlos 4y ago
  Just stay in the US and dump twice more e-waste into your local environment to compensate for those pesky Europeans.
  - sib 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- ThatPlayer 4y ago
  Why do you need to do that? Just don't buy EU-versions of phones if you feel this strongly against it.
everdrive 4y ago
This is very welcome news if it passes. Non-replaceable batteries have NO redeeming qualities in my opinion. Some will say that they're important for waterproofing, but I previously owned an IP68 (ie, certified waterproof) mobile phone which had a user replaceable battery. It's clearly not a requirement. Being able to replace batteries as they go bad will go a long way towards reducing electronic waste, as devices can be used for significantly longer.
- klntsky 4y ago
  > Non-replaceable batteries have NO redeeming qualities in my opinion Non-replaceable batteries contribute to lowering the price. If the producer can expect to sell more copies of the same product, the price of a single item can be lower.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    Which is useful to the producer, not to the consumer. The consumer ends up spending more money by having to buy more phones. It's only cheaper if you're looking at a single purchase, not over time.
    - klntsky 4y ago
      > It's only cheaper if you're looking at a single purchase, not over time. It's not entirely true, if you don't buy a new phone and simply live with a battery not holding power for more than a day, you get both cheaper price of the phone and a technically working phone. Of course someone with higher expectations for battery time will have to buy a new phone sooner, but if you can't afford it, it's valuable to you personally regardless.
      - hattar 4y ago
        If the device degrades to the point where it’s effectively useless for my primary use case, I’m not really saving money. Useful timeline needs to be accounted for when considering cost effectiveness.
traveler01 4y ago
These kind of regulations are purely ridiculous. Sure now it starts with stuff that "welcome" but the state shouldn't be regulating to such a level. We don't need nany states, there are some examples of phones that provide this option and people don't want them.
- Sakos 4y ago
  > but the state shouldn't be regulating to such a level Why not? > We don't need nanny states How do you define a nanny state? It feels like you're against any regulations at all, but plenty of countries have laws about how businesses operate and specifications that their products must meet to be allowed to be sold. I'm not sure how a law intended to reduce electronic waste is somehow indicative of a "nanny state", whatever that is, unless you just believe everything should be up to individual choice. Which doesn't make sense to me, because I don't know how individual choice would be able to solve things like protecting the environment from manufacturing waste processes or preventing the extinction of wildlife.
- worik 4y ago
  No. There are no options if the state is to govern for the people, not for corporations There is more money to be made if the corporate types herd together and institute such dark patterns. There is no incentive for any of them to break ranks. Regulation is the only answer. Not perfect, not all that good, just better.
- felixg3 4y ago
  The EU won’t be mandating on-the-fly replaceable batteries, like where you can simply remove the back cover like with old phones. It’s about making it easy to replace at home with a screwdriver and maybe a suction cup, and no glued-in batteries like those annoying strips used in iPhones.
schuyler2d 4y ago
Now do electric vehicles
- openplatypus 4y ago
  Initiative also covers cars :)
briandw 4y ago
The market decided on this already. There were Samsung phones with replaceable batteries and they stopped making them. Samsung didn't stop selling them because people wanted replaceable batteries more than the phones without.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
I wonder if mandated replaceable batteries will apply to lithium ion, which require careful handling to not 'explode' or at least sizzle and spark violently, which i've seen happen in a lab even with skilled engineers in Cupertino.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  downvote without comment is degenerate loss of conversational opportunity.
spullara 4y ago
What phones don't have replaceable batteries?
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  In the context of this post, "replaceable" means "can be replaced by a relatively unskilled layperson without tools more specialized than a tiny screwdriver, and with very little risk of destroying the device" This includes every iPhone for the last few years, most everything Samsung makes, and basically every phone which is just two slabs of glass glued together.
  - spullara 4y ago
    So, some silly definition that isn't relevant. Got it. I think if that is what you mean, maybe you should use the word "swappable". Replacement means it is at end of life and doing extra work to change them is ok. Swappable means that you are running low and you need more power and have additional batteries that you can swap in anytime.
college_physics 4y ago
The mobile is maybe the most important device ever invented. The inventors and first movers got more than plenty rewards for their accumen. Its time it becomes a tool for a better society. Less junky, less wasteful, both in hardware and software terms. If the "market" wont deliver in its existing rails, thats why democratic govs legislate new and more appropriate rails. I am sure talented engineers will fix any of the purported drawbacks of replaceable batteries if thats what they get instructed to do. As for the EU, what can I say. Derided, badmouthed and undermined continuously both from within and from outside, its the only major entity that consistently provides a sense that there is hope.
- sneak 4y ago
  This comment seems to assume that innovation in mobile phones is complete, and that no harm will occur from letting the regulators take over more control from the current inventors and designers.
  - college_physics 4y ago
    The comment on the comment seems to assume that its better to sustain current and certain harm in order not to incur hypothetical future harm from the suppression of yet to be seen inventions This scenario is no more likely that the legislation of safety belts preventing the invention of EV's In fact robust and reasonable regulation that makes societal expectations clear can save inventors and designers a lot of heartburn and channel their energies towards more sustainable pursuits
  - janosdebugs 4y ago
    The EU regulators seen to be moving rather carefully in this case. They are not mandating full right to repair, merely that the battery should be replacable. E-waste is an issue that vendors are more than happy to socialize the costs of.
fold3 4y ago
Totally anecdotal but it seems to me Europeans are more likely to use old tech than other countries at similar income level. So I know this looks weird for some Asian and north Americans, but it makes total sense for the rest of us. Phone are essentially a finished product nowadays. Apple think the same and shipped iphone 14 with the same CPU as their previous generation. There is also rumors of them skipping the next GPU upgrade for iphot15 because of mower demands than expected. My partner still use an iphone se (2016) We're currently using a 12 years old iMac with upgraded ram and SSD for basic browsing. It's absolutely usable. The current generation of high end smartphones could easily last 10 years for basic usage. Make the SoC upgradable next and we would have iphone SE that would last as long as cars.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  i hate that im forced go upgrade my phone due to software/os dropping support, not the hardware crapping out. i use all my phones for like 5 years for a long time. they're fine.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Having taken apart my iphone smartphone to replace the battery and screen as needed, I really hope the EU'a regulations lead to that sort of situation! I haven't updated to a Framework laptop yet but it's in mind for next time I need to.
fomine3 4y ago
I don't want to take tradeoff by (easily) replaceable battery. It's good that replaceable battery products exists for who want with accepting thicker and heavier product. Not for me so please don't mandate it. Perhaps it's good to make big manufacturers should have at least one replaceable product. I fully agree to right to repair for non-replaceable battery products.
thesnide 4y ago
I'd really welcome to have a rule that mandates opening the firmware once a device is eol, as devices without updated firmware are quickly becoming bricks. It will also subtly shift the incentives to either support things for longer or creating a long-term 3rd party ecosystem
torginus 4y ago
Everybody is talking about phones, but I feel like the regulation is quite a bit more extensive and applies to a wider range of devices. - There has been a proliferation of battery powered devices (cordless vacuums, drills, home cameras etc., scooters) built usually by Chinese companies, using proprietary batteries with no replacement parts and no easy way to replace them. - The requirement of 'user replaceability' isn't clarified as to what level of expertise can be expected from the user - the hackaday article shows an easily replaceable battery, but for example Ikea expects users to assembly complex pieces of furniture by hand, so I don't think this is going to be a huge constraint on manufacturers. I feel like what the EP is going for is the creation of standardized and regulated drop-in batteries ensuring that if the pouch cell battery in your ASUS laptop dies, you can get an OEM-equivalent, regulated, third-party replacement for it which you can install with the same difficulty as replacing a RAM stick.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  Article 11 calls for the batteries to be "readily removable" by end users. There don't seem to be any further clarifications but the dictionary definition would call for batteries to be removable "easily, without much difficulty". I don't believe Apple's current self-service repair program would meet this bar. > Portable batteries incorporated in appliances shall be readily removable and replaceable by the end-user or by independent operators during the lifetime of the appliance, if the batteries have a shorter lifetime than the appliance, or at the latest at the end of the lifetime of the appliance. > A battery is readily replaceable where, after its removal from an appliance, it can be substituted by a similar battery, without affecting the functioning or the performance of that appliance. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_institutions/commission_europeenne/com/2020/0798/COM_COM(2020)0798_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_instituti...

174 points by rolph 4y ago

Many people get a phone case partly to add some heft to ultrathin phones, it makes sense to mandate this, and possibly an SD slot alongside the (good) USB regulation: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809

rolph 4y ago
a very serious point , is what can be done about a damaged/swollen battery. you used to be able to remove it, and deal with it safely. now , when glued in, if it starts to go thermal, you cant remove it, bare minimum your phone goes mission impossible, large chance of injury or starting a fire. all batteries should be removable, for basic product safety. im pretty sure a federaly mandated recall of all such nonremoveable battery items is legally possible here in US, but how is the will to do it going to be born.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  If a LiPo battery goes off on a device that’s screwed together, you’re not getting that battery out until it’s done anyway, glue or no glue.
  - rolph 4y ago
    exactly, that is a safety issue, vs the risk to manufacturers of telemetry loss if your phone isnt always on. it shouldnt just be ~possible~ to remove a battery, it should be expedient, as in, push a thumbnail into the slot and pry lightly, or similar to FRS radio batteries [push on a catch, lift battery out]
  - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
    I can have the battery out of my waterproof phone in <10 seconds, using only my fingernail.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      At the risk of stating the obvious: if your phone is about to explode get it away from you (or you from it), lest you lose more than your phone (or your fingernail). Lithium Ion going bad is an excellent time to have proper respect for chemical burns.
simonh 4y ago
Are there any other features I don’t need and tradeoffs I would not like to make you feel like mandating in the products I need while you’re at it?
- oplaadpunt 4y ago
  Yes, I would want them software rootable by law. It's my phone, if I'm prepared to lose warranty, it should be my decision to change files internally.
- Certhas 4y ago
  You are not the one making the trade offs. The manufacturer is. When they realize that certain anti-consumer features that are not readily appreciated at the point of purchase are possible, they get implemented, even if the benefits you get in return are minimal and often more fig leave than anything else. Replaceable batteries and SD Cards are prototypical for features that extend a phones useful life, but whose absence doesn't get punished because our purchase decisions don't factor in things we might wish to have in two years time. And manufacturers have no incentive to extend useful life. If long term consumer preferences really would drive phone design then why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case?
  - brookst 4y ago
    > why does everyone use cases, but there are no options to buy a phone that is less sleak but robust enough not to need a case? I don’t use a case, and I resent you supporting the use of government power to force me to make a tradeoff that I have chosen against. Cases as an option mean the same phone can serve everyone, and people can choose to use a case or not. You are literally asking why phone manufacturers choose to serve a bigger market rather than a smaller one. As someone else asked, what other purchasing decisions that I make should be illegal in the name of forcing every product to conform to your personal preferences rather than letting consumers like me decide what we want?
    - Certhas 4y ago

PlotCitizen 4y ago

I would prefer to keep to option to at least be able to buy a more water resistant phone

rolph 4y ago
this can, and is done often, no glue needed, just O-rings and small aperature sizes, so water stays out due to surface tension. GPSers and FRS radios have done this for a long time. cell phones did this until later in the "slim is in " marketing campaign.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  Is there a recommended maintenance schedule for replacing or lubricating these O-rings? I'm guessing that most owners of waterproof handheld radios are more 'handy' than the general population.
  - rolph 4y ago
    depends on materials and environment, most people can fingernail them out and push a new one in. they can vary from self destruct, to immortal service life depending on material, and use.
  - lb1lf 4y ago
    Having a number of portable V/UHF radios, GPS receivers and assorted other bits of outdoor electronic gear, I have had a tiny bit of acid-free vaseline on any gasket or O-ring I could find annually. Has worked a charm so far. (With today's rubber being what it is, I guess I could safely at least double that interval - but it only takes a few minutes, and the vaseline is effectively free, so...
idle_zealot 4y ago
I'm sure it's technically possible to build a phone where the battery is easily replaceable and is highly water resistant. Difficult? Sure, but possible. If this regulation really does lead phone manufacturers to go back to the days of hand-removable backs or slide-out batteries then I'm sure they'll be investigating in R&D to get their IPwhatever ratings back.

qwertyuiop_ 4y ago

Why not pass EU phone specs on How tall and wide should the phone be. Max brightness Slipperiness Volume Whether it’s round at the corners How thin the phone should be Whether those that are sold in EU should have all the parts made in member countries just like Airbus

dainiusse 4y ago
I think this is unnecessary criticism. Battery replacement is about sustainability. Especially when corps tend to enable throttling.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Phones have been getting better every year, and with it, new features and utilities enabled, throttling or not. No one (few outside HN) wants an old phone. People want the new features that are enabled by new hardware. The effective life of a phone is not limited by a battery but the remaining hardware.
  - ZWoz 4y ago
    Lot of iPhone users seem mention longevity as main feature. I personally know both Android and iPhone users, who like to have phone longer than 2 years. Having user changeable battery doesn't take away your freedom to change phone more often, but now you have phone with aftermarket value.
  - nickthegreek 4y ago
    Phones are good enough that they feature sets last 6 years, while the batteries don’t. Plenty of people don’t want to drop $800 on a new iPhone every few years when their old one works fine. And those who do move their old iPhone to the secondary market. The secondary market exists because contrary to your statement, plenty of people are fine with old phones.
gtvwill 4y ago
Lol,EU fighting unnecessary waste and here we have people butthurt? Lol spud we literally regulate people for building shit products that are harmful in every other sector, health, food, you name it. Why should tech be any different? And yes your e-waste that's completely unnecessary just because your company wants to make shit decisions isn't acceptable. It's harmful and there's no reason why it should be allowed. Stoked the EU are doing this finally. Get wrecked crappy designers (looking at you apple).

n8cpdx 4y ago

[flagged]

geewee 4y ago
That sounds ominously like a suggestion that the US should use military force.

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago

I really hope that the industry will decide on their own to bring replaceable batteries back. I have accumulated so many old devices over the years and if you stop using them regularly they take less than a year to degrade to the point where the device is perma bricked and in some cases the batteries become unsafe. I wanted to give my son my older iPhone I haven’t used in 5 years and it’s not able to hold a charge at all any more. That wasn’t the case when I stopped using it.

criddell 4y ago
Why not have Apple replace the battery? Surprisingly, it isn’t that expensive.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  I did. My issue is more with the fact that many people keep old devices around stashed away which over time can turn into fire risks.
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    Are there any good sources of statistics that back up this concern?
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      I'm not sure about just sitting in a drawer, but 40% of garbage fires are caused by lithium ion batteries Source- https://apps.cce.csus.edu/sites/CalRecycle/usedoil18/speakers/uploads/5A.%20Kobold_CalRecycle%20HHW%20Conference%20CPSC%20Presentation%20Battery%20(Final).PDF https://apps.cce.csus.edu/sites/CalRecycle/usedoil18/speaker...
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        That's not quite the same thing as sitting still in a drawer though. Lithium-Ion batteries really don't like to be dropped or crushed. Basically anything that is a threat to the mechanical integrity of the cell should be really avoided.

blfr 4y ago

None of the phones I had to toss in the last few years were due to battery giving out. It was because they become too slow or weren't updated by the manufacturer. Well, one stopped charging and wasn't popular enough for local shops to have parts for it. But that was likely wiring/port, not the battery itself.

dale_glass 4y ago
That's coming to an end. There's only so much a cell phone needs to do. I think a Note 4, which is 8 years old at this point is still a perfectly functional phone, with only software related issues. And the battery is replaceable.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  My Note 4 worked for years, then for my SO, then again for me a while. In the end we only had to change the battery once and sold it to someone else, still serviceable if a bit slow. Every form factor since has been a pain in comparison.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Small nit - using a phone as a phone (voice calls) is fairly uncommon usecase anymore (speaking as a 40+ any my cohort, not even mentioning the younger generations). SMS et.al. is quite common still. But most non-SMS apps will probably not work on 4-6 year old phones anymore.
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    Why wouldn't they work? What stops Signal or Discord from working on a Note 4?
    - pantalaimon 4y ago
      Usually it's when there are no more OS updates and the latest versions of those Apps no longer work with the old OS. This can be somewhat mitigated if you have a popular device that is supported by 3rd party ROMs.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

PaulKeeble 4y ago

Batteries are a consumable item, they only last a year or two before they have degraded significantly, whereas the phone will almost certainly work for years. With open source firmwares it could last a decade or more and indeed in the past I extended mobile phones for a long time that had replaceable batteries. Its become increasingly hard to avoid manufacturers planned obsolescence at a time where the improvements in phone performance has been diminishing.

ghaff 4y ago
>they only last a year or two As an iPhone user for more than 10 years, that just isn't true in my case. When I upgrade after 3-4 years, battery has never been the reason. The battery of the upgraded phone that I'm using for some other purpose does tend to give out after another few years but that's hardly 1-2 years total.

sib 4y ago

How do we all move to EU for a bit and vote this down?

foreverCarlos 4y ago
Just stay in the US and dump twice more e-waste into your local environment to compensate for those pesky Europeans.
- sib 4y ago
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ThatPlayer 4y ago
Why do you need to do that? Just don't buy EU-versions of phones if you feel this strongly against it.

everdrive 4y ago

This is very welcome news if it passes. Non-replaceable batteries have NO redeeming qualities in my opinion. Some will say that they're important for waterproofing, but I previously owned an IP68 (ie, certified waterproof) mobile phone which had a user replaceable battery. It's clearly not a requirement. Being able to replace batteries as they go bad will go a long way towards reducing electronic waste, as devices can be used for significantly longer.

klntsky 4y ago
> Non-replaceable batteries have NO redeeming qualities in my opinion Non-replaceable batteries contribute to lowering the price. If the producer can expect to sell more copies of the same product, the price of a single item can be lower.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Which is useful to the producer, not to the consumer. The consumer ends up spending more money by having to buy more phones. It's only cheaper if you're looking at a single purchase, not over time.
  - klntsky 4y ago
    > It's only cheaper if you're looking at a single purchase, not over time. It's not entirely true, if you don't buy a new phone and simply live with a battery not holding power for more than a day, you get both cheaper price of the phone and a technically working phone. Of course someone with higher expectations for battery time will have to buy a new phone sooner, but if you can't afford it, it's valuable to you personally regardless.
    - hattar 4y ago
      If the device degrades to the point where it’s effectively useless for my primary use case, I’m not really saving money. Useful timeline needs to be accounted for when considering cost effectiveness.

traveler01 4y ago

These kind of regulations are purely ridiculous. Sure now it starts with stuff that "welcome" but the state shouldn't be regulating to such a level. We don't need nany states, there are some examples of phones that provide this option and people don't want them.

Sakos 4y ago
> but the state shouldn't be regulating to such a level Why not? > We don't need nanny states How do you define a nanny state? It feels like you're against any regulations at all, but plenty of countries have laws about how businesses operate and specifications that their products must meet to be allowed to be sold. I'm not sure how a law intended to reduce electronic waste is somehow indicative of a "nanny state", whatever that is, unless you just believe everything should be up to individual choice. Which doesn't make sense to me, because I don't know how individual choice would be able to solve things like protecting the environment from manufacturing waste processes or preventing the extinction of wildlife.
worik 4y ago
No. There are no options if the state is to govern for the people, not for corporations There is more money to be made if the corporate types herd together and institute such dark patterns. There is no incentive for any of them to break ranks. Regulation is the only answer. Not perfect, not all that good, just better.
felixg3 4y ago
The EU won’t be mandating on-the-fly replaceable batteries, like where you can simply remove the back cover like with old phones. It’s about making it easy to replace at home with a screwdriver and maybe a suction cup, and no glued-in batteries like those annoying strips used in iPhones.

schuyler2d 4y ago

Now do electric vehicles

openplatypus 4y ago
Initiative also covers cars :)

briandw 4y ago

The market decided on this already. There were Samsung phones with replaceable batteries and they stopped making them. Samsung didn't stop selling them because people wanted replaceable batteries more than the phones without.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

I wonder if mandated replaceable batteries will apply to lithium ion, which require careful handling to not 'explode' or at least sizzle and spark violently, which i've seen happen in a lab even with skilled engineers in Cupertino.

jjtheblunt 4y ago
downvote without comment is degenerate loss of conversational opportunity.

spullara 4y ago

What phones don't have replaceable batteries?

rolenthedeep 4y ago
In the context of this post, "replaceable" means "can be replaced by a relatively unskilled layperson without tools more specialized than a tiny screwdriver, and with very little risk of destroying the device" This includes every iPhone for the last few years, most everything Samsung makes, and basically every phone which is just two slabs of glass glued together.
- spullara 4y ago
  So, some silly definition that isn't relevant. Got it. I think if that is what you mean, maybe you should use the word "swappable". Replacement means it is at end of life and doing extra work to change them is ok. Swappable means that you are running low and you need more power and have additional batteries that you can swap in anytime.

college_physics 4y ago

The mobile is maybe the most important device ever invented. The inventors and first movers got more than plenty rewards for their accumen. Its time it becomes a tool for a better society. Less junky, less wasteful, both in hardware and software terms. If the "market" wont deliver in its existing rails, thats why democratic govs legislate new and more appropriate rails. I am sure talented engineers will fix any of the purported drawbacks of replaceable batteries if thats what they get instructed to do. As for the EU, what can I say. Derided, badmouthed and undermined continuously both from within and from outside, its the only major entity that consistently provides a sense that there is hope.

sneak 4y ago
This comment seems to assume that innovation in mobile phones is complete, and that no harm will occur from letting the regulators take over more control from the current inventors and designers.
- college_physics 4y ago
  The comment on the comment seems to assume that its better to sustain current and certain harm in order not to incur hypothetical future harm from the suppression of yet to be seen inventions This scenario is no more likely that the legislation of safety belts preventing the invention of EV's In fact robust and reasonable regulation that makes societal expectations clear can save inventors and designers a lot of heartburn and channel their energies towards more sustainable pursuits
- janosdebugs 4y ago
  The EU regulators seen to be moving rather carefully in this case. They are not mandating full right to repair, merely that the battery should be replacable. E-waste is an issue that vendors are more than happy to socialize the costs of.

fold3 4y ago

Totally anecdotal but it seems to me Europeans are more likely to use old tech than other countries at similar income level. So I know this looks weird for some Asian and north Americans, but it makes total sense for the rest of us. Phone are essentially a finished product nowadays. Apple think the same and shipped iphone 14 with the same CPU as their previous generation. There is also rumors of them skipping the next GPU upgrade for iphot15 because of mower demands than expected. My partner still use an iphone se (2016) We're currently using a 12 years old iMac with upgraded ram and SSD for basic browsing. It's absolutely usable. The current generation of high end smartphones could easily last 10 years for basic usage. Make the SoC upgradable next and we would have iphone SE that would last as long as cars.

8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
i hate that im forced go upgrade my phone due to software/os dropping support, not the hardware crapping out. i use all my phones for like 5 years for a long time. they're fine.
fragmede 4y ago
Having taken apart my iphone smartphone to replace the battery and screen as needed, I really hope the EU'a regulations lead to that sort of situation! I haven't updated to a Framework laptop yet but it's in mind for next time I need to.

fomine3 4y ago

I don't want to take tradeoff by (easily) replaceable battery. It's good that replaceable battery products exists for who want with accepting thicker and heavier product. Not for me so please don't mandate it. Perhaps it's good to make big manufacturers should have at least one replaceable product. I fully agree to right to repair for non-replaceable battery products.

thesnide 4y ago

I'd really welcome to have a rule that mandates opening the firmware once a device is eol, as devices without updated firmware are quickly becoming bricks. It will also subtly shift the incentives to either support things for longer or creating a long-term 3rd party ecosystem

torginus 4y ago

Everybody is talking about phones, but I feel like the regulation is quite a bit more extensive and applies to a wider range of devices. - There has been a proliferation of battery powered devices (cordless vacuums, drills, home cameras etc., scooters) built usually by Chinese companies, using proprietary batteries with no replacement parts and no easy way to replace them. - The requirement of 'user replaceability' isn't clarified as to what level of expertise can be expected from the user - the hackaday article shows an easily replaceable battery, but for example Ikea expects users to assembly complex pieces of furniture by hand, so I don't think this is going to be a huge constraint on manufacturers. I feel like what the EP is going for is the creation of standardized and regulated drop-in batteries ensuring that if the pouch cell battery in your ASUS laptop dies, you can get an OEM-equivalent, regulated, third-party replacement for it which you can install with the same difficulty as replacing a RAM stick.

dns_snek 4y ago
Article 11 calls for the batteries to be "readily removable" by end users. There don't seem to be any further clarifications but the dictionary definition would call for batteries to be removable "easily, without much difficulty". I don't believe Apple's current self-service repair program would meet this bar. > Portable batteries incorporated in appliances shall be readily removable and replaceable by the end-user or by independent operators during the lifetime of the appliance, if the batteries have a shorter lifetime than the appliance, or at the latest at the end of the lifetime of the appliance. > A battery is readily replaceable where, after its removal from an appliance, it can be substituted by a similar battery, without affecting the functioning or the performance of that appliance. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_institutions/commission_europeenne/com/2020/0798/COM_COM(2020)0798_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/docs_autres_instituti...