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I think this ignores the reason jargon exists. -- To demonstrate that the speaker is part of the "in" crowd. If you stop using jargon then people assume you do

• ohbtvz 4y ago
  This is not the reason jargon exists. What made you say that? > It's the reason that the speaker used all of the tech jargon (launching a website). If they didn't do that then we would think they didn't know about websites. To "launch" something is jargon?
  • krona 4y ago
    > This is not the reason jargon exists. What made you say that? Steven Pinker in The Language Instinct.
    • ohbtvz 4y ago
      I don't have the book at hand. Do you have a more precise quote?
  • sjducb 4y ago
    What is the real reason that jargon exists? Ostensibly it's to increase precision and allow experts to communicate quickly with each other. However that explaination can't explain phrases like "Ring-fence", "Let's take this offline", "360 degree feedback". All of those phrases have better simple English translations.
    • ohbtvz 4y ago
      Your examples are not jargon, they're metaphors. Jargon exists because specialists in a subject want to communicate quickly among themselves, instead of paraphrasing all the time. I'm a mathematician, if I had to use plain-English words instead of jargon in my papers, I would go insane. But my papers aren't meant for the general public (although they're welcome to read them), they're meant for a specialist audience. This is not the case of government websites.
      • incone123 4y ago
        Some government websites are intended for a specialist audience. I think it's great that the site for paying my car tax is very simple but I would not expect the instructions for using a government data API to be written in the same way.
        • ohbtvz 4y ago
          I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. It's clear that the discussion is about general public-facing government websites. Something for which the intended audience is a large portion of the population.
      • sjducb 4y ago
        Your not recognising jargon from other fields. All of those phrases have precise technical definitions. For example "360 degree feedback" is when a manager's direct report is asked to give feedback about their manager. In other words you give feedback about your boss, often to your boss. It doesn't really make sense as a phrase or metaphor. It should really be 180 degree feedback because if you turn 360 degrees you're facing the same way that you started.... But that makes it even better jargon. It signals that you've been on some management training courses.
        • yulker 4y ago
          360 usually involves feedback from peers as well, hence 360.
          • sjducb 4y ago
            Makes sense, also I'm now sure that you'd be a good manager because you've demonstrated a deep understanding of the jargon.
  • denton-scratch 4y ago
    > To "launch" something is jargon? Not if it's a boat or a plane. Otherwise, probably yes.
• dan-robertson 4y ago
  The gov.uk team want to make a site for everyone in the country to use. Making it for some smaller “in” group would not help achieve that goal. I don’t know what other word to use for launching a website but maybe there’s a better one.
  • mildmotive 4y ago
    ”deploying” is the closest I can come up with right now, but it’s not quite the same.
  • sjducb 4y ago
    Launching a website has a precise technical definition. That's why it's GREAT jargon. It means "deploy to production" or "make it available to the users". Using it correctly is a strong honest signal that you know about web development. For the general public, you could use: Make website, build website, develop website, update website, create a new page. To an expert those feel wrong because they all mean slightly different things, the jargon is being used incorrectly. That's exactly how government people feel when you mis-use: "ring fenced budget", "allocate money to", "assign money to", "raise money for". Those all mean slightly different things and using them wrong feels wrong and marks you out as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
    • coding123 4y ago
      i like your take here. I have this problem with people. If someone says: Can you create a website that describes this process? My first question is what domain name? Then they say, what do you mean we already have our website on ...com? Then I say: You said create a website - that indicates you want an entire website, it sounds like you just wanted a new page on the existing website.
      • wink 4y ago
        Oh yes, so much this. The nice thing is that it's not unique to tech, I notice to many terms which are colloquially used only slightly wrong than by professionals when talking about my wife's work (in that case it's usually about legal/medical stuff).
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• fredgrott 4y ago
  I seem to remember the Richard Feynman story of how he hard to re-learn how to pronounce both math and science jargon.
• cafard 4y ago
  Twenty years ago or so I got a copy of Database Design for Mere Mortals to review for a users' group. The author spent several pages almost-but-not-quite defining Third Normal Form, without ever using the expression. I complained of this in the review. That's why jargon exists. It is much better to use 3NF or BCNF or simply normalize or denormalize than to bury the point in many words. .
  • sjducb 4y ago
    Why do people use phrases like "ring-fence", "circle-back", "let's take this offline" ? Those do not increase precision and phrases like "let's take this offline" are even more confused. Are they talking about an annoying idea in a meeting or a broken web server? I do agree that some technical jargon can help communication between experts. Understanding the jargon marks you out as an expert. That's the root of why so much status-signalling jargon exists. If someone says let's circle back to topic X they probably know a lot about project management...
    • kristianc 4y ago
      Because they often are intended to obfuscate and save face — and that is the point — the ‘plain English’ alternative for “let’s take this offline” is “you’re dragging this discussion off topic” or “I want to avoid having a row with you about this in public.”
      • frankc 4y ago
        You are right but calling this 'obfuscate and save face' is a pretty uncharitable take. "let's take this offline" is just a polite jargon for 'this is off-topic or inappropriate for this venue'. I generally find hacker news interpretation of business jargon as uncharitable and unnessarily hostile. Not sure why such an innoccous expression like 'circle-back' sends people into fits of rage. There is good reason to be circumspect about heavy project-management overhead as its often misapllied, but that really has nothing to do with this jargon.
        • 4y ago
• sph 4y ago
  > If you stop using jargon then people assume you don't know what you're talking about I think it's starting to go the other direction. As a technical-minded person if I have a business meeting and the other person starts throwing those yuppie buzzwords in my face I'll just mentally put them in the "empty suit with an MBA" bin. It might be my Southern European sensibilities, but I value straightforwardness very highly than time wasting nonsense to signal you're part of the in crowd. Unless the hacker ethos has died, and we're back to the 1980 where middle managers in business suits are the cool guys.
  • blaser-waffle 4y ago
    > Unless the hacker ethos has died, and we're back to the 1980 where middle managers in business suits are the cool guys. Those hackers got cool and became the guys in the suits. Dollar Uber Alles
  • masklinn 4y ago
    But jargon is not the opposite of straightforwardness, a lot of jargon exists for concise precision[0], and hacker spaces are extremely jargon-heavy. Hell, your comment is full of jargon. "Yuppie", "buzzword", "suit" (and "empty suit"), ... [0] though it's usually very contextual when that's the case, which is really frustrating when things are taken out of context and either become completely unintelligible, or easily misinterpreted (and sometimes wilfully misrepresented).
    • sph 4y ago
      I used those words to be polite and not to call them pillocks. Empty suit isn't jargon, it's a commonly used idiom. Yuppie isn't jargon, I was thinking about the movie American Psycho. It's just a term to refer to your stereotypical middle managers high on their own farts. Avoiding business jargon doesn't mean having to stick to the 1000 most used English words.
      • nickelpro 4y ago
        There's not a straightforward consideration of what is jargon, what is slang, and what is argot. Some linguists use the terms synonymously and some have strict theories of categorization, but there's no universal consensus. In any case, your language here would certainly run afoul of the "simple English" the OP is espousing, and the OP terms such things "jargon", so contextually, yes, it's jargon. Although personally I agree, the OP is using a particularly sloppy definition of "jargon", which often has a stronger technical connotation than merely metaphorical or business newspeak language.
• gumby 4y ago
  > I think this ignores the reason jargon exists. -- To demonstrate that the speaker is part of the "in" crowd. That's unnecessarily cynical. It certainly can give off that impression. But it is also a shortcut for people who work together in a specific domain to be more precise (or more general) than would be implied by non-jargon speech. So to me those things in the sky are just clouds, but to a meteorologist they might be stratocumulus or cirrus. Another case, a similar one, is the stickiness of obsolete language in a certain domains. I've never used the word "cloture" in a sentence,* but to use it is faster for those who need it than to spell it out. In law, some obsolete words not only carry specific meaning but can call back to existing case law. For HN, CPU is a good example, being an old word whose precise meaning is quite fluid (used to be literally the cabinet with merely the ALU and some registers; instruction decode was just how it was wired together) and so is jargon too. * until writing that sentence of course.
  • tuatoru 4y ago
    You didn't use it, you mentioned it. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinctio...
    • dtgriscom 4y ago
      He used it as an example.
  • DonHopkins 4y ago
    CPU is short for Central Processing Unit, and is often used to contrast with GPU, which is short for Graphics Processing Unit, which is often used for ML, which is short for Machine Learning, even though ML isn't just Graphics, and TPU is short for Tensor Processing Unit, which is also used for Machine Learning. Also, C-3PO is short for See-Threepio, and is used for interacting with organics, while R2D2 is short for Artoo-Detoo, which is used for interacting with digitals and arguing with C-3P0, while TWKE-4 is short for Twiki, which is used for saying BDBDBDBD, which is short for Bee Dee Bee Dee Bee Dee Bee Dee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeCb_abgig0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeCb_abgig0
• chiefalchemist 4y ago
  Correct. Jargon === Signaling Signaling === Status Status === Power Like it or not, it's what humans are wired to do. That said, the wise do both. For example, use the acronym, but the spell it out as well. Well, you think about those who leverage signaling the most effectively, they tend to be more inclusive in their arc.
  • sjducb 4y ago
    I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. That's the logical next step from my OP.
    • chiefalchemist 4y ago
      [flagged]
• bhouston 4y ago
  > To demonstrate that the speaker is part of the "in" crowd. I think the point of removing jargon is to remove the "in" and "out" crowds as much as possible, at least for the mundane aspects of government. I think that some people will still try to make an "in" crowd in which they are a member by introducing jargon, but separating people into these groups doesn't benefit most, so let's try to fight that. Simple words is better as it is inclusive and also makes things understandable.
• Spooky23 4y ago
  Jargon adds context in a community. “Tubular” was a term of art for surfers before the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles showed up. It’s a normal and natural thing to develop. But it’s also normal and good to have communications professionals mandate editorial standards so that people can understand outside of the niche.
• leokennis 4y ago
  I hate how often I need to use words like “stack”, “anti pattern” and “key value store” so people believe I know my stuff. I feel like a tech bro.
  • yulker 4y ago
    What other terminology might better describe those concepts? These seem to be technical terms that describe specific things. Unless using them in an unrelated context (e.g. describing your pantry as a key value store), these seem relevant.
    • leokennis 4y ago
      * stack → (depending on context): server, operating system etc. * anti pattern → bad design * key value store → (almost always) database
      • marcosdumay 4y ago
        > stack → (depending on context): server, operating system etc On that context, "stack" means exactly the set of all those things and a few more. You can't replace it by any one of those things. The alternative is enumerating all of them (that's what people used to do), what is bad (that's why people coined the "stack" term). > anti pattern → bad design Hum... Now are you talking about software architecture, UI, UX, communications design? Your replacement is confusing. > key value store → (almost always) database It is an specific kind of database, with performance characteristics that are completely different from the relational databases that the "database" word alone implies.
      • zeroxfe 4y ago
        This is kinda making a pretty good case for the jargon. :-)
  • wink 4y ago
    I'm still looking for a good alternative term than "use case" without resorting to a whole sentence trying to ask what the person needs solving or how the thing is going to be used. Doubly so in German.
• denton-scratch 4y ago
  > Your precieved credibility goes way down when you stop speaking in jargon. I don't agree - unless you're using jargon to conceal your intrinsic lack of credibility. If you really understand a thing, then you can explain it in plain words. The use of jargon serves to conceal from both the listener and the speaker that the explanation is shallow. It's like a "code smell".
  • sjducb 4y ago
    I wish that were true. The problem is that lots of things are hard to understand and there's a good chance you're listener won't get it.
  • roflc0ptic 4y ago
    They're making a general statement about perception. This is markedly true and an important human dynamic. There's even a meme that plays on this: "How do you do, fellow kids?" The linguistic patterns (including jargon but also more than that) peg us as part of various subcultures, as educated or not, rich or not, from Florida or not. I was interviewing with some random dude who went to Duke and he said "You remind me of my college roommate." I'd known this dude for 15 minutes: what else could there be, really, other than linguistic cues? Naturally, I was offered the job. Jargon _can_ mean that the explanation is shallow; it just depends on which jargon employed when. Take any jargon filled non-sense - you can say equally shallow things entirely without the jargon!
• majkinetor 4y ago
  Government is NOT a crowd, and if that was the case, it shouldn't be concerned about undefinable "in" status. Just simple words and sentences, unambiguous. ELI5. Those guys know their stuff.
  • anon223345 4y ago
    Government folks typically do not know their stuff
• jerf 4y ago
  You can always go for the high-risk, high-reward approach of demonstrating your stature by refusing to use the jargon by virtue of being too important to deal with it. Project confidence, do as you like, see how the dice roll.
  • sjducb 4y ago
    That works if you're super high status and you demonstrate status by breaking the rules. Think CEOs in turtlenecks and fundraising in your pajamas.
• oliwarner 4y ago
  It does link directly to the Plain English examples on "government jargon". These are mostly written in legalese. It does not mean to avoid all jargon, it means you should say what you mean, not say things in a way to satisfy 300 year old rules on jurisprudence for the statute books. http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/campaigning/examples/government-jargon.html http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/campaigning/examples/governmen...
• lozenge 4y ago
  Luckily, gov.uk has credibility without resorting to jargon. Because it's got a special TLD and a crown icon on every page. And it's the government.
• inopinatus 4y ago
  On the other hand, simplicity is a hallmark of brilliance. "Feynman was a truly great teacher. He prided himself on being able to devise ways to explain even the most profound ideas to beginning students. Once, I said to him, 'Dick, explain to me, so that I can understand it, why spin one-half particles obey Fermi-Dirac statistics.' Sizing up his audience perfectly, Feynman said, 'I'll prepare a freshman lecture on it.' But he came back a few days later to say, 'I couldn't do it. I couldn't reduce it to the freshman level. That means we don't really understand it.'" — Goodstein & Goodstein, Feynman's Lost Lecture: The Motion of Planets Around the Sun (Norton, New York, 1996)
• daniel-cussen 4y ago
  [dead]
• 908B64B197 4y ago
  Policing jargon is also a marker of being in the "in" crowd, at least, a different one. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34039816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34039816
  • sjducb 4y ago
    That post is a whole new level. We're using jargon to signal competence. They're using jargon to signal morality. If someone is incompetent then maybe don't promote them. If someone's immoral, what punishment should be dolled out against them?
• upofadown 4y ago
  >If you stop using jargon then people assume you don't know what you're talking about. This works in reverse. If you use enough jargon then you can often convince people that you know what you are talking about, even if you don't... :) You will rarely get called on it because people hate to admit when they don't understand something.
• WalterBright 4y ago
  Caltech had its own special jargon, simply because it was fun: flicking - do something fun trolling - studying (opposite of flicking) troll - someone who studies infinite troll - someone who studies a lot Boeing had the "tin benders" for structural engineers, and the "tube benders" for the hydraulics engineers. In one company I worked at, the marketers were the "weasels" and the engineers were the "swine". A good piece of engineering was complimented as being "swinish". Good times
• jlg23 4y ago
  > If you stop using jargon then people assume you don't know what you're talking about. This affect is real. Your precieved credibility goes way down when you stop speaking in jargon. So let them learn it the hard way. If people prefer to trust someone they don't understand over making the effort to understand what they are being told in simple words, they only reveal their own ignorance. I once was reprimanded in school (in absentia), for choosing my words to impress and not to be understood. That was probably the most important lesson I ever received. But I think you are wrong about why jargon exists: Jargon lets us express complex ideas in a very compressed way, because, among peers, we understand exactly what is being said. It is just detrimental to effective communication with people outside our area of expertise. So yes, sometimes "NOP sledge" says it all, while with a different audience one might just skip that subject...
• combatentropy 4y ago
  First of all, that's false. Time and again, experts who can explain complicated concepts with everyday words seem smarter, not dumber. To wit: Richard Feynman, Steven Pinker, C.S. Lewis. Second, even if it were true, that would be all the more reason to stop it, because the reason is bad. It is selfish, at the expense of others. If you make things harder for people so that life is easier for you, then you are by definition evil. "Short words are best, and old words are best of all." --- Winston Churchill