5 ms·

It might be a consequence of not being a native speaker, but many of those are completely arbitrary choice of synonyms to me. Can you guys shed some light? Wh

It might be a consequence of not being a native speaker, but many of those are completely arbitrary choice of synonyms to me. Can you guys shed some light? Why is discussion better than dialogue? Work with better than collaborate? Concentrate on better than focus on?

pifm_guy 4y ago
Avoid words with multiple meanings, particularly where you intend to use the non-primary meaning. For example, 'dialogue' to many people means a dialogue box on a computer screen. So that word is ambiguous. But a discussion has a primary meaning that is what the writer desires to use. Particularly for non-native speakers, using secondary meanings of words can be confusing.
- noctune 4y ago
  You are thinking of a 'dialog box'.
  - TotempaaltJ 4y ago
    From Wikipedia: > The dialog box (also called dialogue box (non-U.S. English), ... This is a British government website, so "dialogue box" might not be uncommon.
    - tom_ 4y ago
      I don't think I've ever seen anybody call it a "dialogue box". Feels like at this point, along with "disk", "dialog" is a separate word with a separate (but not unrelated) meaning.
    - KineticLensman 4y ago
      As a Brit, I would never use 'dialogue box' (and don't recall ever seeing it) Some of us distinguish between program (software) and programme (a collection of projects)
  - aliswe 4y ago
    Or Dialog for short
    - stevesimmons 4y ago
      Where in the world are you? I am in the UK and I have never heard 'dialog' refer to a dialogue box.
      - tom_ 4y ago
        I am in the uk and have never heard "dialog" used by British speakers any other way. My experience has near universally that everybody that knows the term spells it "dialog", same as nobody spells "disk" with a c when it comes to the rectangular computer variety.
      - denton-scratch 4y ago
        I've never seen the words "dialogue box". If I'm speaking of drama, that's dialogue; but but an interactive box in a computer UI is a "dialog". In the same way, the instructions controlling a computer are a "program"; the TV drama with the dialogue is a "programme". /me British English speaker (obv)
        tom_ 4y ago
        Check out GIMP - its window menu includes an entry for "Dockable Dialogues", at least on macOS. Might be close enough? I don't think I've ever seen anybody else spell it that way though! (This would also, if you squint a bit, serve as an example of "dialog" being short for dialog box.)
IshKebab 4y ago
They are mostly suggesting simpler, more common words, or words that have direct meaning rather than meaning by analogy. E.g. "focus on" is used to mean "look at in detail" by analogy with the focusing mechanism of eyes and cameras. Some of them are definitely debatable but that's the general trend.
- torben-friis 4y ago
  But isn't that how most words are formed anyway? Sure, focus comes from optics, but concentrate is also an analogy (to bring something to a center). What is the line between analogies and etymology? Not really arguing with the specific choice, but considering words formed by analysis as harder to understand is a concept I've never seen before.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    Yes I agree, it does show a slight misunderstanding of linguistics. But I think on the whole choosing simpler less flowery words and phrases makes sense in this context. "Simpler and less flowery" is obviously not very well defined but it's also definitely a real spectrum. One of those things that needs taste and judgement.
dan-robertson 4y ago
Partly it’s using simpler, more common words, eg dialogue is quite uncommon outside of office-speak (or acting I guess). Partly it’s about avoiding (often very stale) metaphors which make the meaning less clear to people with poorer literacy or who aren’t native speakers. I think it also encourages more direct and concise writing which is a lot better for people who read slowly.
version_five 4y ago
Having worked in consulting and government, I think it's just that many of those words have a slight connotation of pretension, like the writer is choosing words to sound smart. It's very subtle and in many cases probably not worth banning, but prohibition has the side effect of forcing people to think about what they're trying to write rather than just regurgitate pre-made phrases. Another subtlety in English is that words with Germanic roots feel more direct and simple while those with Latin roots feel flowery and pretentious so the former are often preferred. E.g. ask/inquire, answer/response. It's not always true, and some words may still be out of date. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_and_Latinat...
- rikroots 4y ago
  I worked in the UK Civil service for a long while. The language barrier back in the late 1980s was a real thing[1]. While I had good English skills, I had never made it to university - unlike most of my colleagues. Oxbridge alumni were (still are?) over-represented, and the language I heard/had to learn felt very academic at times. Heck, when I started some of the Senior SC were still adding comments to minutes in Latin! The Plain English campaign - whose work has been excellent over the decades - and diversity in CS hiring, have hopefully broken the worst parts of the language barrier. [1] - silly example: while most of the office-working world would write a "memo", in CS Jargonese it was a "minute". To this day I have no idea why the distinction was important.
  - macintux 4y ago
    Thank you for sharing that, it’s a fascinating insight.
- torben-friis 4y ago
  > Another subtlety in English is that words with Germanic roots feel more direct and simple while those with Latin roots feel flowery and pretentious so the former are often preferred. Ooh, That might explain why it was hard for me to understand! I'm a Spaniard, so latin-derived words are usually familiar. That's what's keeping me from perceiving them as literary, since their Spanish counterpart is in my 'common speech register', so to speak.
TomSwirly 4y ago
As a well-read native speaker, I agree with all these decisions, and yet it's pretty subtle. "Focus" is a metaphor. "Work with" is at a considerably simpler level of English education than "collaborate". A "dialog" was originally a literary work with people responding to each other, so it's a bit more pretentious. Also, a dialog has a slightly more argumentative feel than a discussion - there is more of a sense of opposition. "We had a quick discussion to make sure we were on the same page and then had lunch." Dialog would be weird here. "We are trying to start a dialog between one side and the other."
- torben-friis 4y ago
  Same question as the other answerer: When does metaphor become etymology for a new meaning? concentrate is bringing something to a center, which seems metaphorical when used as keeping a goal in mind, and I'd guess a majority of words are originally formed that way - should they not talk about cranes (in the sense of construction) because they are name after a bird?
- ask_b123 4y ago
  Strangely I find the word discussion to sound more argumentative than dialogue. Though I guess that used in an international context (say, between countries) discussion would sound stranger than dialogue, and there is usually some degree of opposition between countries.
blululu 4y ago
It’s a preference for choosing simpler more common words and expressions. This makes writing easier to understand for more people, but perhaps more importantly it prevents the writer from using some bizarre circumlocution in an attempt to sound sophisticated.

pifm_guy 4y ago

Avoid words with multiple meanings, particularly where you intend to use the non-primary meaning. For example, 'dialogue' to many people means a dialogue box on a computer screen. So that word is ambiguous. But a discussion has a primary meaning that is what the writer desires to use. Particularly for non-native speakers, using secondary meanings of words can be confusing.

noctune 4y ago
You are thinking of a 'dialog box'.
- TotempaaltJ 4y ago
  From Wikipedia: > The dialog box (also called dialogue box (non-U.S. English), ... This is a British government website, so "dialogue box" might not be uncommon.
  - tom_ 4y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen anybody call it a "dialogue box". Feels like at this point, along with "disk", "dialog" is a separate word with a separate (but not unrelated) meaning.
  - KineticLensman 4y ago
    As a Brit, I would never use 'dialogue box' (and don't recall ever seeing it) Some of us distinguish between program (software) and programme (a collection of projects)
- aliswe 4y ago
  Or Dialog for short
  - stevesimmons 4y ago
    Where in the world are you? I am in the UK and I have never heard 'dialog' refer to a dialogue box.
    - tom_ 4y ago
      I am in the uk and have never heard "dialog" used by British speakers any other way. My experience has near universally that everybody that knows the term spells it "dialog", same as nobody spells "disk" with a c when it comes to the rectangular computer variety.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      I've never seen the words "dialogue box". If I'm speaking of drama, that's dialogue; but but an interactive box in a computer UI is a "dialog". In the same way, the instructions controlling a computer are a "program"; the TV drama with the dialogue is a "programme". /me British English speaker (obv)
      - tom_ 4y ago
        Check out GIMP - its window menu includes an entry for "Dockable Dialogues", at least on macOS. Might be close enough? I don't think I've ever seen anybody else spell it that way though! (This would also, if you squint a bit, serve as an example of "dialog" being short for dialog box.)

IshKebab 4y ago

They are mostly suggesting simpler, more common words, or words that have direct meaning rather than meaning by analogy. E.g. "focus on" is used to mean "look at in detail" by analogy with the focusing mechanism of eyes and cameras. Some of them are definitely debatable but that's the general trend.

torben-friis 4y ago
But isn't that how most words are formed anyway? Sure, focus comes from optics, but concentrate is also an analogy (to bring something to a center). What is the line between analogies and etymology? Not really arguing with the specific choice, but considering words formed by analysis as harder to understand is a concept I've never seen before.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  Yes I agree, it does show a slight misunderstanding of linguistics. But I think on the whole choosing simpler less flowery words and phrases makes sense in this context. "Simpler and less flowery" is obviously not very well defined but it's also definitely a real spectrum. One of those things that needs taste and judgement.

dan-robertson 4y ago

Partly it’s using simpler, more common words, eg dialogue is quite uncommon outside of office-speak (or acting I guess). Partly it’s about avoiding (often very stale) metaphors which make the meaning less clear to people with poorer literacy or who aren’t native speakers. I think it also encourages more direct and concise writing which is a lot better for people who read slowly.

version_five 4y ago

Having worked in consulting and government, I think it's just that many of those words have a slight connotation of pretension, like the writer is choosing words to sound smart. It's very subtle and in many cases probably not worth banning, but prohibition has the side effect of forcing people to think about what they're trying to write rather than just regurgitate pre-made phrases. Another subtlety in English is that words with Germanic roots feel more direct and simple while those with Latin roots feel flowery and pretentious so the former are often preferred. E.g. ask/inquire, answer/response. It's not always true, and some words may still be out of date. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_and_Latinat...

rikroots 4y ago
I worked in the UK Civil service for a long while. The language barrier back in the late 1980s was a real thing[1]. While I had good English skills, I had never made it to university - unlike most of my colleagues. Oxbridge alumni were (still are?) over-represented, and the language I heard/had to learn felt very academic at times. Heck, when I started some of the Senior SC were still adding comments to minutes in Latin! The Plain English campaign - whose work has been excellent over the decades - and diversity in CS hiring, have hopefully broken the worst parts of the language barrier. [1] - silly example: while most of the office-working world would write a "memo", in CS Jargonese it was a "minute". To this day I have no idea why the distinction was important.
- macintux 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing that, it’s a fascinating insight.
torben-friis 4y ago
> Another subtlety in English is that words with Germanic roots feel more direct and simple while those with Latin roots feel flowery and pretentious so the former are often preferred. Ooh, That might explain why it was hard for me to understand! I'm a Spaniard, so latin-derived words are usually familiar. That's what's keeping me from perceiving them as literary, since their Spanish counterpart is in my 'common speech register', so to speak.

TomSwirly 4y ago

As a well-read native speaker, I agree with all these decisions, and yet it's pretty subtle. "Focus" is a metaphor. "Work with" is at a considerably simpler level of English education than "collaborate". A "dialog" was originally a literary work with people responding to each other, so it's a bit more pretentious. Also, a dialog has a slightly more argumentative feel than a discussion - there is more of a sense of opposition. "We had a quick discussion to make sure we were on the same page and then had lunch." Dialog would be weird here. "We are trying to start a dialog between one side and the other."

torben-friis 4y ago
Same question as the other answerer: When does metaphor become etymology for a new meaning? concentrate is bringing something to a center, which seems metaphorical when used as keeping a goal in mind, and I'd guess a majority of words are originally formed that way - should they not talk about cranes (in the sense of construction) because they are name after a bird?
ask_b123 4y ago
Strangely I find the word discussion to sound more argumentative than dialogue. Though I guess that used in an international context (say, between countries) discussion would sound stranger than dialogue, and there is usually some degree of opposition between countries.

blululu 4y ago

It’s a preference for choosing simpler more common words and expressions. This makes writing easier to understand for more people, but perhaps more importantly it prevents the writer from using some bizarre circumlocution in an attempt to sound sophisticated.