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This has been a growing trend in the US. The old argument for rules like this was often "broke cars reduce home value", so it's fun to try and see them use the

This has been a growing trend in the US. The old argument for rules like this was often "broke cars reduce home value", so it's fun to try and see them use the pro-environment card but it's really to push out poor people. Every once in a while there's a city that makes a move like this because they are tired of broken down cars in poor neighborhoods and then end up repealing the rule when cops get uppity and apply it to middle/upper class people who are doing vehicle restorations in their driveways. The big bummer in rules like this is that the wealthy people in office that are enacting this legislation don't know what a "major" car repair is because they've never done any. And their definition of a 'special tool' is anything beyond their Craftsmen "Baby's First Toolbox".

mc32 4y ago
Can't there be a time limit to allow for repairs and restorations? A month, six months. Occasionally I'll come across a vehicle that has obviously been in the same place for years: cracked tires, oil spots and or larger weeds growing around. It's usually obvious when something is getting worked on vs something met its forever spot in the yard.
- lrvick 4y ago
  Does not matter. If it is their property they should be able to stack cars in their yard and call it art if they want. Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    There's a limit to that. If you dump a barrel of something, and it leeches into the ground water, or washes out into the neighbor's yard, then what you do matters. Cars have fluids that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible. One man's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. Fine if you're doing small scale car repairs on your own car in a residential zone, not fine if the smell from your hacky welding job disrupts my enjoyment of my property. If you want to do shit that impacts your neighbors, go and rent a garage in an industrial or commercial zone.
    - akerl_ 4y ago
      Do you know of any examples of jurisdictions that recognize a property owner's right to protection from neighboring property owners' smells? I've heard several anecdotes about people whose neighbors picked up a hobby that generated downwind impact, but the only times I've heard of the neighbor being made to stop were in cases where an HOA existed.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        I'm German, we have a ton of court cases dealing with smell emissions (mostly, grills and heavy smokers), and these almost always end up with the emitter losing because they impact their neighbors in an amount that courts see as unreasonable. Basically, "don't be an arsehole" in legalese.
        akerl_ 4y ago
        Interesting. It's worth pointing out that in general (though I'm still curious if there are examples here), the legal landscape in the US is weighted heavily in the other direction. One of the examples I'm directly familiar with was a friend who ended up moving because their neighbor picked up meat smoking as a hobby, and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house.
        mschuster91 4y ago
        > and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house At that point, he'd probably get a C&D order filed against him for emissions and a decent fine on top as well. That's why I love the German system: people are protected from the influence of bad actors, not the other way around.
  - showerst 4y ago
    If I move next-door to you and start a garbage dump out front, this affects you substantially doesn't it? People should have to pay for their externalities. I think the policy in question is stupid, but so is being absolutist about it.
    - Workaccount2 4y ago
      The people who most commonly hold views like this are people who live deep in the sticks. It's ideal policy for people who live in a vacuum.
      - itsoktocry 4y ago
        [flagged]
        hospadar 4y ago
        Yeah sick burn! (not sarcastic!) I'm put in the mind of the other thread today about wrongly judging something as over-complex. What you can do on your property definitely affects nearby properties and it seems to me that we need a fairly subtle, localized, maybe complex way to deal with this. Different rules in the city/country, different rules for the industrial park/a neighborhood. I usually lean pretty "do what you want on your property" - in my town there's a lot of "we must preserve the character of our town [and prevent apartments or anywhere poor folk could possibly afford to live]" folks who seem to always be white and living in the expensive part of town. I don't think any simple "TOTAL FREEDOM" or "NO MESSY CARS" rule is every going to be very just or effective.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I live in a semi-rural farm town with a lot of small scale farming and orchards. (It's a right to farm town which means people can farm and raise animals if they're over some (low) acreage.) No one generally pays much attention to rusty farm equipment, and yes, the odd broken down car here and there. But much as I dislike "Your grass is too long and your garden too unkempt" school of HOAs, it's not hard to see why neighbors in a neat suburban development might object to someone moving in with a bunch of junked cars on their lawn.
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    I think if you buy land in a residential neighborhood then you do owe some concessions to neighbors, not many people want to live next to your rooster coup or mosquito laden abandoned pool.
  - bumbledraven 4y ago
    What are your thoughts on laws that prohibit a property in an residential zone from hosting, e.g. an auto body shop or convenience store?
    - eppp 4y ago
      There should be jobs closer to homes in general. Building massive sprawl with no transportation isn't ideal either.
  - hansel_der 4y ago
    while i appreciate the freedom sentiment, i would think that there's a stark difference in any freedom in regard to population density. in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard)
    - hyperpape 4y ago
      > in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard) Out of respect for cultural differences, I won't protest you having this rule in Germany, but it doesn't sound great to American ears (I do acknowledge that Americans have disagreements about such things, but I think I speak for the norm that this sounds like people being busybodies).
      - Volundr 4y ago
        Depending on where you (want) to live in the US your going to have a hard time finding a home not covered by an HOA, and that HOA will almost certainly restrict your house colors. Not defending it, just observering that the difference for much of the US population is who is enforcing it, not if the rule exists.
        hyperpape 4y ago
        I'm not a fan of HOAs, but there is a big difference between thinking that a hyper-local opt-in association is worthwhile and thinking that it should be part of the legal requirements.
    - ponow 4y ago
      Yes, Germans do not take liberty seriously. You could handle the color constraint by contract, but it's easier to force people than bribe them to sign voluntarily.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Well, only if there is a "Bebauungsplan" (a plan that describes the requirements of buildings and surroundings, up to the type of trees for example). If there is not, and where we built there isn't, no such limits exist. Beyond your states general laws covering buildings and such.
  - lost_tourist 4y ago
    If you signed an HOA agreement you have to abide by it. It's as simple as that barring local laws about junk in your yard
    - lost_tourist 4y ago
      Downvote me if you like but it's true.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Yeah. I get where the HOA side is coming from and believe they should have some ability to create communities like that for people who want to live in them. But what we should be doing is capping HOA-covered SFH at a max % of an area, to ensure people still have freedom to live in non-HOA housing if they chose. If someone wants to give up their freedom for pretty sidewalks, good for them. But it shouldn't be the only option. Instead, a lot of areas have local government mandating/empowering HOAs for the sole purpose of not having to deal with their community issues, at the expense of placing people under the rule of petty, non-professional tyrants.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    I agree on principle, but principle can have edge cases. I live on a 10-acre rural property, surrounded by similarly sized plots. A lot of the people out here are small business owners who run their businesses from home, so there is equipment and supplies all over their properties, etc. One of my neighbors likes to randomly shoot skeet and do target practice with his rifle. Another one likes riding four-wheelers, etc, up and down the adjoining property line. Hell, I have three broken down vehicles on or near my driveway for years and no one's said a thing to me about it. At least they're on their own wheels and not up on cinder blocks :-) How people want to live can be irritating, but we all moved out here for the space and more freedom to live our lives, so we have to try to get along. I'll put up with the noise from your shotgun at noon, but when you start setting off cherry bombs at 9PM, then I'm going to be pissed and you'll hear from me.
    - showerst 4y ago
      I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much harder to sell _my_ house. If they move in after I do it's plausible that costs me a hundred thousand dollars or more, by no fault of my own. If they're on 10 acre lots with trees where I can't even see it, and my neighbor is just doing reasonable stuff to run a small business on ground with no zoning, who cares? On the other hand I can still hear it, so we might share similar positions on noise after hours.
      - ponow 4y ago
        What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.
        4y ago
  - dymk 4y ago
    Thank god HOAs exist as a counterbalance to people who hold these opinions.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mc32 4y ago
    Yes and no. Degrees matter. It’s the age old problem of why we can’t have nice things. People not being roughly reasonable. Yes it’s their yard, but it’s also our neighborhood. Yes they should have autonomy but also should know how to operate within civil society. There are limits. They need not be onerous and get down to small details, but people need to be roughly reasonable. Can I call in emergency scares and call them “artwork” of the performance kind? Things aren’t things just because I say they are a thing. One can’t walk thru a TSA line with a weapon and “call it art”.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      > but also should know how to operate within civil society A society which threatens its members with state violence because they dare to repair their own property themselves on their own property is hardly "civil".
      - mc32 4y ago
        What do you mean? I think a few months is a reasonable time to have things on blocks to be worked on. Multiple years is unreasonable.
        lrvick 4y ago
        Speaking as someone that grew up poor, people hoard any fixable backup cars they can in case their primary ride breaks down forcing them to invest in a weekend getting another beater running. Not everyone has the luxury of keeping all the cars they own in running order at once. The fact you clearly do not understand this is exactly you have have no business making rules for other peoples property. When you make laws to restrict behavior like this, you are really trying to get rid of the poors. If you want to help discourage this type of behavior long term, vote for better public transportation.
  - duped 4y ago
    I feel like people get too absolutist about this. At the end of the day, people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's freedom to do what they want (aka do unto others, etc). The problem with "let people do literally whatever they want" with their property is that it infringes on my freedom to live happily/healthily on my property. If my neighbors blast music until the early hours of the morning and they don't turn it down when asked politely, is it "reprehensible" for me to call the police to enforce my village's noise ordinances? What if they're burning refuse and it spews over into my yard and ventilation? Or if they have an uncovered fire pit close to the property line? That's not even getting into the long term effects on the community, like if people store or dispose of hazardous waste on their property (we all share the same water table!). I don't think it's "fundamentally reprehensible." It's part of living in a free society that balances the rights of one against the rights of all.
    - beiller 4y ago
      Could repairing an ev in your driveway run afoul of this? Sounds like yes. Leaking oil into the ground and air conditioning gasses into the atmosphere is already illegal. It sounds like preventing car repair is purely a nefarious regulation, whether it be an attack on rights to repair, or preventing depreciation of some over inflated asset. I would love to explain this away with simple ignorance. If so, let's just repeal this ridiculous regulation.
      - duped 4y ago
        I once worked in an area that had a problem with smokers littering. They put out trash cans and ash trays and heavy fines. No success. They banned smoking within the area. The littering stopped, because it's a lot harder to hide smoking than hide littering. Like another poster said, "this is why we can't have nice things." A few bad actors breaking ordinances that are unenforceable means the ordinances become more strict.
        beiller 4y ago
        I'm curious how policing the no smoking is somehow easier than policing littering your cig butt. And so what, are the anti smoking police giving smokers tickets while ignoring actual littering of plastic and pollution cause hey, it's impossible? I don't see the problem as solved. But then again I'm being a bit ignorant of your specific situation.
- TrueGeek 4y ago
  It depends on the city code. In my county "junk cars" are not allowed at all although that's not super clearly defined, car repairs aren't allowed at all unless in "an enclosed building", and you can't have more then a certain number of cars visible from the street. That said - last week my neighbor had his car up on a jack, in the street, for 2 days straight. He was repairing something under the rear of the car in cold weather. He's "allowed" to do this because none of us are mean and called in a complaint so the city didn't know about it.
- kodah 4y ago
  I recently moved into a non-HOA neighborhood in Southeast Portland. We have several lots that have broken down equipment, vehicles, etc... It's pretty unsightly to the extent that my guy can't even use his driveway. None of what I've mentioned is my business. Where it becomes the cities business is if it becomes an environmental hazard or a hazard to the neighbors (eg: fire hazard). Not liking the way your neighbors house is arranged is simply not good enough reason to bring in the powers of a higher authority. If laws like this were really trying to go after environmental impacts then the city could mandate that cars get put over an fluid reservoir. You can buy them super cheap at most stores and we used them in the military because of similar concerns with JP-8 and oil.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    My neighbor has had junk and household replacement parts in his yard for years. He started a major home renovation then his wife got sick and eventually passed. A few months later, he moved in with his mother to provide her long-term care. His son still lived in the house but repairs stalled obviously. It's been about 5 years and they've really made progress this year. Eventually this home will be a real asset to the neighborhood but I've been really happy for our fence the past few years.
    - kodah 4y ago
      That's pretty much the same attitude I take. Our yard is pristine because I walk the grounds and pick up trash that blows in, I take care of my trees and gardens, I like working on the house, I have places to securely store tools, and I have a job that pays me well and gives me time to live my life. A lot of people don't have that. In life I try to walk the line of, "You can do whatever you want until your actions violate my rights in some significant way."
      - giantg2 4y ago
        My attitude is that if I really don't like something about your property, like tall grass, peeling paint, etc, then I should offer to help you fix it. Not necessarily paying for materials, but just the labor part is usually a huge burden to many, such as the elderly. Hey, I have a lawn mower. It's no big deal to mow your lawn once in a while for you. Usually I'm too lazy to care about minor stuff like tall grass. I did help a neighbor fix a downspout since the contractor said she'd need fascia to put in a modern gutter and wanted $1k to do it. One hour of my time and about $25 in parts and scraps later, she has a working downspout. Isn't this what being neighbors is supposed to be?
- cptaj 4y ago
  Can't we just let people do what they want in their property?
  - giantg2 4y ago
    The number of people who willingly live in HOAs and support an ever increasing number of restrictions seems to indicate not.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  There are people who work on car restorations for decades. Life intervenes!
- gnicholas 4y ago
  The law does bring time into the equation — anything that would leave the vehicle inoperable for more than 24 hours is forbidden. The aspect that makes the least sense to me is that this rule applies even if you're working inside a closed garage.
- rascul 4y ago
  > Occasionally I'll come across a vehicle that has obviously been in the same place for years: cracked tires, oil spots and or larger weeds growing around. It depends, but those things can happen in a much shorter timeframe. I have a (running and usable) car sitting for a couple months and there's no oil spots but by the tires and weeds it could appear as if it's been there longer than the year I've been there.
- bartread 4y ago
  > Can't there be a time limit to allow for repairs and restorations? Have you ever tried a restoration? I haven't. But I've watched a few on YouTube. The amount of problems and delays (e.g., getting hold of rare or specialised parts) that can mount up is beyond belief. M539 Restorations spent a year working on an Alpina B7 and went through 3 engines (I think, it might have been 4 - I have a recollection of him buying one and immediately returning it but that might have been a different project) doing so (they're notorious for scoring issues). What I have done, and am in the middle of, is refurbish a house. Similar issues. Take a 70 year old house where nothing is square and the last owner was a bodger and everything is a PITA. It's all doable, but it's a PITA. I recently had to wait about 8 weeks for materials for a particular job to turn up. That's especially bad, but having to wait a week or two if you need to go a bit off piste with materials or tools isn't. Being blocked by the weather (e.g., it's too cold in the attic for materials to cure properly) is also something that can happen. The reality is it's just not possible to know how long a restoration or refurbishment is going to take when you start it, and you the one guarantee is that you'll find unanticipated problems you need to solve along the way, all of which adds to the time it takes. (And this is all ignoring wider circumstances: you get laid off, or some surprise expense means you need to lay off spending on the restoration for a while, you fall ill, somebody else in your family falls ill, etc. Life's messy. Stupid rules about how long restorations and refurbishments should take are not helpful.) All you can do is keep steadily moving forward until it's done.
mschuster91 4y ago
> The old argument for rules like this was often "broke cars reduce home value", so it's fun to try and see them use the pro-environment card but it's really to push out poor people. It's one thing if you're legitimately doing a small repair on your car like changing a blown tire or replacing a cat some meth head sawed off... but honestly, everyone knows how bad a car hoarder can fuck up the looks of a neighborhood, not to mention the actually relevant emission issues: exhaust from damaged or half-broken vehicles being worked on, oil and other contaminant spills both on ground and in wastewater management systems, noise from angle grinders and hydraulic lifts, spray paint wafting through the neighborhood and setting on laundry, the fire risk originating from operating with welders, blowtorches, plasma cutters or shoddy DIY electrical work... The problem is, you can't legally define "common sense" or "not being an arsehole", and too many arseholes abusing a regulation-free environment end up driving rules such as the one being discussed. Here in Germany, we have a sensible solution: there are "hobbyist garages" where you drive in, can rent any kind of tool you can imagine, lift rigs or parking lots, and work on your car. Everything there is above the board - the places have oil removers on the wastewater collection, are in industrial zones where no people live adjacent and have safe disposal for everything (oil, coolant, AC refrigerants, fuel, batteries, ...). As a result of the availability of these services, almost no one but farmers does major repairs on their own property, and the farmers don't bother anyone because they are way out in rural areas.
- j-bos 4y ago
  This argument always struck as similar to telling someone that because they wear ugly clothes, we're going to run them out of public spaces. Except worse because it's their own house.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    Well, if you want to work on a car project, you can always go and buy/rent a property in a mixed zone area. Residential zoning restrictions are old and are made that way for a reason - so that people can live and relax in peace.
    - 4y ago
quadrifoliate 4y ago
> here's a city that makes a move like this because they are tired of broken down cars in poor neighborhoods and then end up repealing the rule when cops get uppity and apply it to middle/upper class people who are doing vehicle restorations in their driveways. Basically, they are making up their own laws by trial and error, which just seems bizarre to me. I am completely ignorant of the law in this regard – how ridiculous can city or county laws get before someone is obliged to step in even if no one in the jurisdiction challenges it in court? Or is it possible that the county could start fining people for, I don't know, staying up past midnight; and that would be fine so long as no one in the county sues?
- rmah 4y ago
  Yes, cities have can enact pretty much any law they want until it's challenged in court. Just as an FYI, many cities have enacted curfews before, typically, I think for children and teens.
  - quadrifoliate 4y ago
    Thanks! I found out today about curfew laws and some of the concerns about them [1] in the US; had never heard of them previously since I came here as an adult. It seems like an issue affecting a fairly large section of the population (15-17 year olds and their parents) that the Supreme Court has never examined. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1206/curfews https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1206/curfews
- reedjosh 4y ago
  I don't know why you're downvoted. Maybe the answer is obvious to some, but my public school and college degree never really educated me on this. I'm quite interested. What recourse does one have if your county imposes unreasonable rules? I imagine some of this is political and some of it would be jurisdiction/constitutional? So maybe you could sue on the basis that a law is unconstitutional or that the county doesn't have the right (where maybe the state does). And otherwise your only other recourse is to run/campaign/vote in county elections? Edit... My county claims to be a "Council-Manager form of government." Guess I've got some reading to do on my county's politics -- though I do plan to move soon.
Eumenes 4y ago
> The big bummer in rules like this is that the wealthy people in office that are enacting this legislation don't know what a "major" car repair is because they've never done any. And their definition of a 'special tool' is anything beyond their Craftsmen "Baby's First Toolbox". Same way politicians approach gun regulation
- aksss 4y ago
  Right? Who needs self-defense weapons or even a funded police dept. when you can hire private security and gate your community? Even better if you can cover the private security bill with taxpayer dollars! Case in point: Cori Bush spends $490,000 on private security while calling to defund police https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/cori-bush-spent-500-000-private-security-despite-defund-calls https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/cori-bush-...
  - Eumenes 4y ago
    Exactly. This is your average politicians understanding of firearms - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0 Excuse the cringe commentary/meme style format And yes, of course the politician is from California.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      You can't spend years fighting something and not develop an understanding. They're doing stupid as a dog and pony show to rile up the voters. You see this on all sorts of issues.
graywh 4y ago
the specialized tools clause makes me think the law was to prevent operating a car repair business out of your home
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Then it should be more specific.
- hirundo 4y ago
  It says it is also illegal to repair a can at your home unless it is registered to someone who lives there. Compared to that, the specialized tools clause is unsuited to that purpose. But it's great for the purpose of creating the ambiguity necessary to inflate the scope of the law per "discretion".
- berniedurfee 4y ago
  Cars, especially modern cars, very frequently require specialized tools. I’ve got a garage full built up over the years. I think the intent was to reduce the repairs to those trivial enough to do with a wrench. Though, they seem to permit brake jobs, which often require weird specialized tools to get stuff apart.
bin_bash 4y ago
I'm not in favor of this kind of law but I've also seen shade-tree mechanics show a complete disregard for the environment: dumping oil into the dirt, releasing freon into the atmosphere, etc.
- jdboyd 4y ago
  True, but since changing your own fluids is still permitted there, I don't see how this helps much.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Dumping oil in the dirt is downright nice compared to dumping it in road drainage.
  - Kye 4y ago
    Where do you think things go once they get in the soil? Contaminated groundwater is as bad as sending it down to a river. It just takes longer to get there.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      Probably 40 years ago, my dad used to dump his oil in a spot in the yard. Years later I realized that spot is about 100 feet from his well. Somehow, we are all still alive. (He did stop doing that eventually).
      - kbelder 4y ago
        Yeah, when I was a kid we had the 'oil bush' behind the garage. The bush my dad spent twenty years trying to kill by dumping old oil on it.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      How bad it is depends on a few major factors: is there a well nearby? how is the soil layering and composition? microbial activity? how deep is the water table? is there a body of water nearby? (where the drain water runs) is the drain water treated in a plant? (is the treatment biological or chemical) and so and so forth The results can range from "no problem at all, the oil will sit undisturbed for hundreds of years and clean it self up" to "end up straight where it kills somethings". Anyway, it occurred to me that oil change is probably on its way to become a historical footnote. Barring specalised applications, all motor vehicals will be electric probably, adoption seems to have reached a tipping point.
shultays 4y ago
If it is not "will somebody please think of the children", the excuse is "somethihg something environment" now
flandish 4y ago
Every time I hear someone say “something someone else does on their property it lowers my property value”… I respond with “with investment comes risk. either your house is your house or its an investment. But that does not make ALL houses investments. If the risk is too much, pop smoke before the value is too low.” I’m told I just “don’t get it.” No. I don’t get it. That’s the problem. :p
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bberenberg 4y ago
  Why should an investor not exercise agency to try and influence the outcome of their investment?
  - Gracana 4y ago
    Because of the harm they cause to the people around them, as discussed in the comments here.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    And why should I give a fuck about what investor wishes. In my opinion bar direct / illegal actions like throwing garbage in neighbour's property we should be left alone from interference.
  - flandish 4y ago
    Oh I think they should attempt to register their opinion, but in the end, that’s as far as it can go - if we truly “care” about a human’s right to private enjoyment of their own “property.”
  - friend_and_foe 4y ago
    Now rephrase that taking into account the fact that said investor enacting his will onto another person without their consent. If what I do with my property negatively affects your investment perhaps you should've taken that into account when conducting your risk analysis instead of throwing a fit and making your problems my problem.
rcpt 4y ago
See also: lawn parking bans. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-28-me-406-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-28-me-406-st...
blacklion 4y ago
It reminds me post of person who was poor at borderline to homeless and explained this "experience" to middle-class. It was shared here, on HN some time ago. Poor people need to do engine rebuild in their garage because they don't have money for mechanic or new car, and they need car to get to work every day...

mc32 4y ago

Can't there be a time limit to allow for repairs and restorations? A month, six months. Occasionally I'll come across a vehicle that has obviously been in the same place for years: cracked tires, oil spots and or larger weeds growing around. It's usually obvious when something is getting worked on vs something met its forever spot in the yard.

lrvick 4y ago
Does not matter. If it is their property they should be able to stack cars in their yard and call it art if they want. Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  There's a limit to that. If you dump a barrel of something, and it leeches into the ground water, or washes out into the neighbor's yard, then what you do matters. Cars have fluids that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible. One man's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. Fine if you're doing small scale car repairs on your own car in a residential zone, not fine if the smell from your hacky welding job disrupts my enjoyment of my property. If you want to do shit that impacts your neighbors, go and rent a garage in an industrial or commercial zone.
  - akerl_ 4y ago
    Do you know of any examples of jurisdictions that recognize a property owner's right to protection from neighboring property owners' smells? I've heard several anecdotes about people whose neighbors picked up a hobby that generated downwind impact, but the only times I've heard of the neighbor being made to stop were in cases where an HOA existed.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      I'm German, we have a ton of court cases dealing with smell emissions (mostly, grills and heavy smokers), and these almost always end up with the emitter losing because they impact their neighbors in an amount that courts see as unreasonable. Basically, "don't be an arsehole" in legalese.
      - akerl_ 4y ago
        Interesting. It's worth pointing out that in general (though I'm still curious if there are examples here), the legal landscape in the US is weighted heavily in the other direction. One of the examples I'm directly familiar with was a friend who ended up moving because their neighbor picked up meat smoking as a hobby, and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house.
        mschuster91 4y ago
        > and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house At that point, he'd probably get a C&D order filed against him for emissions and a decent fine on top as well. That's why I love the German system: people are protected from the influence of bad actors, not the other way around.
- showerst 4y ago
  If I move next-door to you and start a garbage dump out front, this affects you substantially doesn't it? People should have to pay for their externalities. I think the policy in question is stupid, but so is being absolutist about it.
  - Workaccount2 4y ago
    The people who most commonly hold views like this are people who live deep in the sticks. It's ideal policy for people who live in a vacuum.
    - itsoktocry 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - hospadar 4y ago
        Yeah sick burn! (not sarcastic!) I'm put in the mind of the other thread today about wrongly judging something as over-complex. What you can do on your property definitely affects nearby properties and it seems to me that we need a fairly subtle, localized, maybe complex way to deal with this. Different rules in the city/country, different rules for the industrial park/a neighborhood. I usually lean pretty "do what you want on your property" - in my town there's a lot of "we must preserve the character of our town [and prevent apartments or anywhere poor folk could possibly afford to live]" folks who seem to always be white and living in the expensive part of town. I don't think any simple "TOTAL FREEDOM" or "NO MESSY CARS" rule is every going to be very just or effective.
        ghaff 4y ago
        I live in a semi-rural farm town with a lot of small scale farming and orchards. (It's a right to farm town which means people can farm and raise animals if they're over some (low) acreage.) No one generally pays much attention to rusty farm equipment, and yes, the odd broken down car here and there. But much as I dislike "Your grass is too long and your garden too unkempt" school of HOAs, it's not hard to see why neighbors in a neat suburban development might object to someone moving in with a bunch of junked cars on their lawn.
- thatguy0900 4y ago
  I think if you buy land in a residential neighborhood then you do owe some concessions to neighbors, not many people want to live next to your rooster coup or mosquito laden abandoned pool.
- bumbledraven 4y ago
  What are your thoughts on laws that prohibit a property in an residential zone from hosting, e.g. an auto body shop or convenience store?
  - eppp 4y ago
    There should be jobs closer to homes in general. Building massive sprawl with no transportation isn't ideal either.
- hansel_der 4y ago
  while i appreciate the freedom sentiment, i would think that there's a stark difference in any freedom in regard to population density. in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard)
  - hyperpape 4y ago
    > in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard) Out of respect for cultural differences, I won't protest you having this rule in Germany, but it doesn't sound great to American ears (I do acknowledge that Americans have disagreements about such things, but I think I speak for the norm that this sounds like people being busybodies).
    - Volundr 4y ago
      Depending on where you (want) to live in the US your going to have a hard time finding a home not covered by an HOA, and that HOA will almost certainly restrict your house colors. Not defending it, just observering that the difference for much of the US population is who is enforcing it, not if the rule exists.
      - hyperpape 4y ago
        I'm not a fan of HOAs, but there is a big difference between thinking that a hyper-local opt-in association is worthwhile and thinking that it should be part of the legal requirements.
  - ponow 4y ago
    Yes, Germans do not take liberty seriously. You could handle the color constraint by contract, but it's easier to force people than bribe them to sign voluntarily.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Well, only if there is a "Bebauungsplan" (a plan that describes the requirements of buildings and surroundings, up to the type of trees for example). If there is not, and where we built there isn't, no such limits exist. Beyond your states general laws covering buildings and such.
- lost_tourist 4y ago
  If you signed an HOA agreement you have to abide by it. It's as simple as that barring local laws about junk in your yard
  - lost_tourist 4y ago
    Downvote me if you like but it's true.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Yeah. I get where the HOA side is coming from and believe they should have some ability to create communities like that for people who want to live in them. But what we should be doing is capping HOA-covered SFH at a max % of an area, to ensure people still have freedom to live in non-HOA housing if they chose. If someone wants to give up their freedom for pretty sidewalks, good for them. But it shouldn't be the only option. Instead, a lot of areas have local government mandating/empowering HOAs for the sole purpose of not having to deal with their community issues, at the expense of placing people under the rule of petty, non-professional tyrants.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  I agree on principle, but principle can have edge cases. I live on a 10-acre rural property, surrounded by similarly sized plots. A lot of the people out here are small business owners who run their businesses from home, so there is equipment and supplies all over their properties, etc. One of my neighbors likes to randomly shoot skeet and do target practice with his rifle. Another one likes riding four-wheelers, etc, up and down the adjoining property line. Hell, I have three broken down vehicles on or near my driveway for years and no one's said a thing to me about it. At least they're on their own wheels and not up on cinder blocks :-) How people want to live can be irritating, but we all moved out here for the space and more freedom to live our lives, so we have to try to get along. I'll put up with the noise from your shotgun at noon, but when you start setting off cherry bombs at 9PM, then I'm going to be pissed and you'll hear from me.
  - showerst 4y ago
    I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much harder to sell _my_ house. If they move in after I do it's plausible that costs me a hundred thousand dollars or more, by no fault of my own. If they're on 10 acre lots with trees where I can't even see it, and my neighbor is just doing reasonable stuff to run a small business on ground with no zoning, who cares? On the other hand I can still hear it, so we might share similar positions on noise after hours.
    - ponow 4y ago
      What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.
      - 4y ago
- dymk 4y ago
  Thank god HOAs exist as a counterbalance to people who hold these opinions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mc32 4y ago
  Yes and no. Degrees matter. It’s the age old problem of why we can’t have nice things. People not being roughly reasonable. Yes it’s their yard, but it’s also our neighborhood. Yes they should have autonomy but also should know how to operate within civil society. There are limits. They need not be onerous and get down to small details, but people need to be roughly reasonable. Can I call in emergency scares and call them “artwork” of the performance kind? Things aren’t things just because I say they are a thing. One can’t walk thru a TSA line with a weapon and “call it art”.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > but also should know how to operate within civil society A society which threatens its members with state violence because they dare to repair their own property themselves on their own property is hardly "civil".
    - mc32 4y ago
      What do you mean? I think a few months is a reasonable time to have things on blocks to be worked on. Multiple years is unreasonable.
      - lrvick 4y ago
        Speaking as someone that grew up poor, people hoard any fixable backup cars they can in case their primary ride breaks down forcing them to invest in a weekend getting another beater running. Not everyone has the luxury of keeping all the cars they own in running order at once. The fact you clearly do not understand this is exactly you have have no business making rules for other peoples property. When you make laws to restrict behavior like this, you are really trying to get rid of the poors. If you want to help discourage this type of behavior long term, vote for better public transportation.
- duped 4y ago
  I feel like people get too absolutist about this. At the end of the day, people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's freedom to do what they want (aka do unto others, etc). The problem with "let people do literally whatever they want" with their property is that it infringes on my freedom to live happily/healthily on my property. If my neighbors blast music until the early hours of the morning and they don't turn it down when asked politely, is it "reprehensible" for me to call the police to enforce my village's noise ordinances? What if they're burning refuse and it spews over into my yard and ventilation? Or if they have an uncovered fire pit close to the property line? That's not even getting into the long term effects on the community, like if people store or dispose of hazardous waste on their property (we all share the same water table!). I don't think it's "fundamentally reprehensible." It's part of living in a free society that balances the rights of one against the rights of all.
  - beiller 4y ago
    Could repairing an ev in your driveway run afoul of this? Sounds like yes. Leaking oil into the ground and air conditioning gasses into the atmosphere is already illegal. It sounds like preventing car repair is purely a nefarious regulation, whether it be an attack on rights to repair, or preventing depreciation of some over inflated asset. I would love to explain this away with simple ignorance. If so, let's just repeal this ridiculous regulation.
    - duped 4y ago
      I once worked in an area that had a problem with smokers littering. They put out trash cans and ash trays and heavy fines. No success. They banned smoking within the area. The littering stopped, because it's a lot harder to hide smoking than hide littering. Like another poster said, "this is why we can't have nice things." A few bad actors breaking ordinances that are unenforceable means the ordinances become more strict.
      - beiller 4y ago
        I'm curious how policing the no smoking is somehow easier than policing littering your cig butt. And so what, are the anti smoking police giving smokers tickets while ignoring actual littering of plastic and pollution cause hey, it's impossible? I don't see the problem as solved. But then again I'm being a bit ignorant of your specific situation.
TrueGeek 4y ago
It depends on the city code. In my county "junk cars" are not allowed at all although that's not super clearly defined, car repairs aren't allowed at all unless in "an enclosed building", and you can't have more then a certain number of cars visible from the street. That said - last week my neighbor had his car up on a jack, in the street, for 2 days straight. He was repairing something under the rear of the car in cold weather. He's "allowed" to do this because none of us are mean and called in a complaint so the city didn't know about it.
kodah 4y ago
I recently moved into a non-HOA neighborhood in Southeast Portland. We have several lots that have broken down equipment, vehicles, etc... It's pretty unsightly to the extent that my guy can't even use his driveway. None of what I've mentioned is my business. Where it becomes the cities business is if it becomes an environmental hazard or a hazard to the neighbors (eg: fire hazard). Not liking the way your neighbors house is arranged is simply not good enough reason to bring in the powers of a higher authority. If laws like this were really trying to go after environmental impacts then the city could mandate that cars get put over an fluid reservoir. You can buy them super cheap at most stores and we used them in the military because of similar concerns with JP-8 and oil.
- brewdad 4y ago
  My neighbor has had junk and household replacement parts in his yard for years. He started a major home renovation then his wife got sick and eventually passed. A few months later, he moved in with his mother to provide her long-term care. His son still lived in the house but repairs stalled obviously. It's been about 5 years and they've really made progress this year. Eventually this home will be a real asset to the neighborhood but I've been really happy for our fence the past few years.
  - kodah 4y ago
    That's pretty much the same attitude I take. Our yard is pristine because I walk the grounds and pick up trash that blows in, I take care of my trees and gardens, I like working on the house, I have places to securely store tools, and I have a job that pays me well and gives me time to live my life. A lot of people don't have that. In life I try to walk the line of, "You can do whatever you want until your actions violate my rights in some significant way."
    - giantg2 4y ago
      My attitude is that if I really don't like something about your property, like tall grass, peeling paint, etc, then I should offer to help you fix it. Not necessarily paying for materials, but just the labor part is usually a huge burden to many, such as the elderly. Hey, I have a lawn mower. It's no big deal to mow your lawn once in a while for you. Usually I'm too lazy to care about minor stuff like tall grass. I did help a neighbor fix a downspout since the contractor said she'd need fascia to put in a modern gutter and wanted $1k to do it. One hour of my time and about $25 in parts and scraps later, she has a working downspout. Isn't this what being neighbors is supposed to be?
cptaj 4y ago
Can't we just let people do what they want in their property?
- giantg2 4y ago
  The number of people who willingly live in HOAs and support an ever increasing number of restrictions seems to indicate not.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
There are people who work on car restorations for decades. Life intervenes!
gnicholas 4y ago
The law does bring time into the equation — anything that would leave the vehicle inoperable for more than 24 hours is forbidden. The aspect that makes the least sense to me is that this rule applies even if you're working inside a closed garage.
rascul 4y ago
> Occasionally I'll come across a vehicle that has obviously been in the same place for years: cracked tires, oil spots and or larger weeds growing around. It depends, but those things can happen in a much shorter timeframe. I have a (running and usable) car sitting for a couple months and there's no oil spots but by the tires and weeds it could appear as if it's been there longer than the year I've been there.
bartread 4y ago
> Can't there be a time limit to allow for repairs and restorations? Have you ever tried a restoration? I haven't. But I've watched a few on YouTube. The amount of problems and delays (e.g., getting hold of rare or specialised parts) that can mount up is beyond belief. M539 Restorations spent a year working on an Alpina B7 and went through 3 engines (I think, it might have been 4 - I have a recollection of him buying one and immediately returning it but that might have been a different project) doing so (they're notorious for scoring issues). What I have done, and am in the middle of, is refurbish a house. Similar issues. Take a 70 year old house where nothing is square and the last owner was a bodger and everything is a PITA. It's all doable, but it's a PITA. I recently had to wait about 8 weeks for materials for a particular job to turn up. That's especially bad, but having to wait a week or two if you need to go a bit off piste with materials or tools isn't. Being blocked by the weather (e.g., it's too cold in the attic for materials to cure properly) is also something that can happen. The reality is it's just not possible to know how long a restoration or refurbishment is going to take when you start it, and you the one guarantee is that you'll find unanticipated problems you need to solve along the way, all of which adds to the time it takes. (And this is all ignoring wider circumstances: you get laid off, or some surprise expense means you need to lay off spending on the restoration for a while, you fall ill, somebody else in your family falls ill, etc. Life's messy. Stupid rules about how long restorations and refurbishments should take are not helpful.) All you can do is keep steadily moving forward until it's done.

mschuster91 4y ago

> The old argument for rules like this was often "broke cars reduce home value", so it's fun to try and see them use the pro-environment card but it's really to push out poor people. It's one thing if you're legitimately doing a small repair on your car like changing a blown tire or replacing a cat some meth head sawed off... but honestly, everyone knows how bad a car hoarder can fuck up the looks of a neighborhood, not to mention the actually relevant emission issues: exhaust from damaged or half-broken vehicles being worked on, oil and other contaminant spills both on ground and in wastewater management systems, noise from angle grinders and hydraulic lifts, spray paint wafting through the neighborhood and setting on laundry, the fire risk originating from operating with welders, blowtorches, plasma cutters or shoddy DIY electrical work... The problem is, you can't legally define "common sense" or "not being an arsehole", and too many arseholes abusing a regulation-free environment end up driving rules such as the one being discussed. Here in Germany, we have a sensible solution: there are "hobbyist garages" where you drive in, can rent any kind of tool you can imagine, lift rigs or parking lots, and work on your car. Everything there is above the board - the places have oil removers on the wastewater collection, are in industrial zones where no people live adjacent and have safe disposal for everything (oil, coolant, AC refrigerants, fuel, batteries, ...). As a result of the availability of these services, almost no one but farmers does major repairs on their own property, and the farmers don't bother anyone because they are way out in rural areas.

j-bos 4y ago
This argument always struck as similar to telling someone that because they wear ugly clothes, we're going to run them out of public spaces. Except worse because it's their own house.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Well, if you want to work on a car project, you can always go and buy/rent a property in a mixed zone area. Residential zoning restrictions are old and are made that way for a reason - so that people can live and relax in peace.
  - 4y ago

quadrifoliate 4y ago

> here's a city that makes a move like this because they are tired of broken down cars in poor neighborhoods and then end up repealing the rule when cops get uppity and apply it to middle/upper class people who are doing vehicle restorations in their driveways. Basically, they are making up their own laws by trial and error, which just seems bizarre to me. I am completely ignorant of the law in this regard – how ridiculous can city or county laws get before someone is obliged to step in even if no one in the jurisdiction challenges it in court? Or is it possible that the county could start fining people for, I don't know, staying up past midnight; and that would be fine so long as no one in the county sues?

rmah 4y ago
Yes, cities have can enact pretty much any law they want until it's challenged in court. Just as an FYI, many cities have enacted curfews before, typically, I think for children and teens.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  Thanks! I found out today about curfew laws and some of the concerns about them [1] in the US; had never heard of them previously since I came here as an adult. It seems like an issue affecting a fairly large section of the population (15-17 year olds and their parents) that the Supreme Court has never examined. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1206/curfews https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1206/curfews
reedjosh 4y ago
I don't know why you're downvoted. Maybe the answer is obvious to some, but my public school and college degree never really educated me on this. I'm quite interested. What recourse does one have if your county imposes unreasonable rules? I imagine some of this is political and some of it would be jurisdiction/constitutional? So maybe you could sue on the basis that a law is unconstitutional or that the county doesn't have the right (where maybe the state does). And otherwise your only other recourse is to run/campaign/vote in county elections? Edit... My county claims to be a "Council-Manager form of government." Guess I've got some reading to do on my county's politics -- though I do plan to move soon.

Eumenes 4y ago

> The big bummer in rules like this is that the wealthy people in office that are enacting this legislation don't know what a "major" car repair is because they've never done any. And their definition of a 'special tool' is anything beyond their Craftsmen "Baby's First Toolbox". Same way politicians approach gun regulation

aksss 4y ago
Right? Who needs self-defense weapons or even a funded police dept. when you can hire private security and gate your community? Even better if you can cover the private security bill with taxpayer dollars! Case in point: Cori Bush spends $490,000 on private security while calling to defund police https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/cori-bush-spent-500-000-private-security-despite-defund-calls https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/cori-bush-...
- Eumenes 4y ago
  Exactly. This is your average politicians understanding of firearms - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0 Excuse the cringe commentary/meme style format And yes, of course the politician is from California.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    You can't spend years fighting something and not develop an understanding. They're doing stupid as a dog and pony show to rile up the voters. You see this on all sorts of issues.

graywh 4y ago

the specialized tools clause makes me think the law was to prevent operating a car repair business out of your home

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Then it should be more specific.
hirundo 4y ago
It says it is also illegal to repair a can at your home unless it is registered to someone who lives there. Compared to that, the specialized tools clause is unsuited to that purpose. But it's great for the purpose of creating the ambiguity necessary to inflate the scope of the law per "discretion".
berniedurfee 4y ago
Cars, especially modern cars, very frequently require specialized tools. I’ve got a garage full built up over the years. I think the intent was to reduce the repairs to those trivial enough to do with a wrench. Though, they seem to permit brake jobs, which often require weird specialized tools to get stuff apart.

bin_bash 4y ago

I'm not in favor of this kind of law but I've also seen shade-tree mechanics show a complete disregard for the environment: dumping oil into the dirt, releasing freon into the atmosphere, etc.

jdboyd 4y ago
True, but since changing your own fluids is still permitted there, I don't see how this helps much.
actionfromafar 4y ago
Dumping oil in the dirt is downright nice compared to dumping it in road drainage.
- Kye 4y ago
  Where do you think things go once they get in the soil? Contaminated groundwater is as bad as sending it down to a river. It just takes longer to get there.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    Probably 40 years ago, my dad used to dump his oil in a spot in the yard. Years later I realized that spot is about 100 feet from his well. Somehow, we are all still alive. (He did stop doing that eventually).
    - kbelder 4y ago
      Yeah, when I was a kid we had the 'oil bush' behind the garage. The bush my dad spent twenty years trying to kill by dumping old oil on it.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    How bad it is depends on a few major factors: is there a well nearby? how is the soil layering and composition? microbial activity? how deep is the water table? is there a body of water nearby? (where the drain water runs) is the drain water treated in a plant? (is the treatment biological or chemical) and so and so forth The results can range from "no problem at all, the oil will sit undisturbed for hundreds of years and clean it self up" to "end up straight where it kills somethings". Anyway, it occurred to me that oil change is probably on its way to become a historical footnote. Barring specalised applications, all motor vehicals will be electric probably, adoption seems to have reached a tipping point.

shultays 4y ago

If it is not "will somebody please think of the children", the excuse is "somethihg something environment" now

flandish 4y ago

Every time I hear someone say “something someone else does on their property it lowers my property value”… I respond with “with investment comes risk. either your house is your house or its an investment. But that does not make ALL houses investments. If the risk is too much, pop smoke before the value is too low.” I’m told I just “don’t get it.” No. I don’t get it. That’s the problem. :p

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bberenberg 4y ago
Why should an investor not exercise agency to try and influence the outcome of their investment?
- Gracana 4y ago
  Because of the harm they cause to the people around them, as discussed in the comments here.
- FpUser 4y ago
  And why should I give a fuck about what investor wishes. In my opinion bar direct / illegal actions like throwing garbage in neighbour's property we should be left alone from interference.
- flandish 4y ago
  Oh I think they should attempt to register their opinion, but in the end, that’s as far as it can go - if we truly “care” about a human’s right to private enjoyment of their own “property.”
- friend_and_foe 4y ago
  Now rephrase that taking into account the fact that said investor enacting his will onto another person without their consent. If what I do with my property negatively affects your investment perhaps you should've taken that into account when conducting your risk analysis instead of throwing a fit and making your problems my problem.

rcpt 4y ago

See also: lawn parking bans. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-28-me-406-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-28-me-406-st...

blacklion 4y ago

It reminds me post of person who was poor at borderline to homeless and explained this "experience" to middle-class. It was shared here, on HN some time ago. Poor people need to do engine rebuild in their garage because they don't have money for mechanic or new car, and they need car to get to work every day...