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I don't understand that girls is letting that going when they pretend to care for OSS. Microsoft is in the embrace phase, there is not a major forge that will r

I don't understand that girls is letting that going when they pretend to care for OSS. Microsoft is in the embrace phase, there is not a major forge that will remain that will not force to use their things. Then they will be able to start with messing things, like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing. I guess a lot of people here don't remember the good old time of Visual Studio on Windows.

ZiiS 4y ago
The default Python extension is already proprietary.
- worble 4y ago
  So is their C# debugger
  - notpushkin 4y ago
    There's this FOSS replacement based on Samsung's open source C# debugger: https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp
roblabla 4y ago
> like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing. Which they are already doing in a lot of places. For instance, the VSCode Python extension replaced the open source language server with a proprietary rewrite (PyLance)[0]. They also have quite a few extensions that are proprietary, like LiveView. And it's worth noting that those extensions explicitly forbid running in anything other than the official VSCode from Microsoft. Forks cannot legally run those extensions, and some of the extensions will have DRM to prevent it from happening[1]. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/n9yse1/as_of_today_updating_the_vs_code_python_extension/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/n9yse1/as_of_today_... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/k0s8qw/vs_code_developers_prevent_running_the_new/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/k0s8qw/vs_code_devel...
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Which means it's not truly OSS. But I dont think its insidious for software to have good proprietary features that make the tool better.
  - madeofpalk 4y ago
    It means that there is a truly OSS core VS Code (presumably what Gitlab and Code Sandbox uses), and proprietary extensions on top that Microsoft ship in their default (proprietary) distribution
    - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      But given that the architecture is open source, there's nothing stopping the people behind e.g. Python from embracing the language server protocol and providing better tooling. Besides time / money, but that ties in to the known problem that open source is very difficult to monetize.
    - matkoniecz 4y ago
      If someone is a purist and wants to use it to avoid lock-in - it is available at https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium
      - andrew_ 4y ago
        I gave this an earnest try over the course of a few months. There were notable bugs in nearly all of the extensions I needed to use for work. It's known that Microsoft ships custom builds of the open source portion of VS Code, and there's certainly something missing from the open source core. I ended up going back to hobbled Atom while I wait for projects like Zed to mature.
        matkoniecz 4y ago
        And I am simply not using extensions. (Viable for me, may be not viable for others.)
npteljes 4y ago
Well, they can just fork if something happens, no? Or even phase out this product, if something goes that wrong.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Many core features like remote editing and python support use a DRM so they only run in VSCode and not forks.
  - thiht 4y ago
    These are NOT core features. They're literally extensions. Anyone could create an alternative for both of these if they wanted it.
aliswe 4y ago
Sorry, this went over my head. What was that about girls, you said?
- petepete 4y ago
  On my phone (Pixel) if you type 'gitlab' into the Google Keyboard and it suggests 'girls'.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Tangent: Why is autocomplete getting worse on phones? iOS is notably much worse, often replacing completely correct words with other unrelated words. Frustratingly even doing it _again_ when you fix the word.
    - beckingz 4y ago
      I've disabled iOS autocorrect/autocomplete because it's gotten so bad.
      - notjoemama 4y ago
        Thank you! My subconcious has been telling me to do that for ages. I finally just did it and am typing this reply without the hand holding. Feels a bit like taking the training wheels off a bike, but good in the same way too.
      - dijit 4y ago
        I will follow your example, lets see how much it was actually helping me. :)
    - stinos 4y ago
      Feels like a combination of wanting to roll out new 'better' stuff which isn't tested enough, or just not good enough, plus essentially people not really caring and/or thinking that new tech must by definition be better. It's like with orientation detection. You'd think that after a decade this would have been a done thing. On the contrary: it amazes me to no end how many times a day people want to show me something on their phone and then go like 'oh wait..shake phone..nope..shake again..finally got it'. When I ask them why they don't just turn it off or replace it with a hardware or software button they say something about it sometimes working and/or not wanting to lookup where to change the setting. Same with voice control in the past years. This is getting better it seems, slowly, but I can't keep track of the number of times people were getting angry because their words wouldn't come through and the navigation wasn't driving them where they want or their text message were full of bs. Still they persist, seemingly because 'I paid for this new thing so I better try'. Which is utterly nonsensical for an engineering mind.
aaws11 4y ago
girls!
kristopolous 4y ago
Or maybe Microsoft is done being a bastard. It's a different group of people steering the ship then it was 25 years ago. I know how fun it is to presume they are being exclusively evil but who knows, things can change
- mikro2nd 4y ago
  Or maybe not. It's harder to change an organisational DNA than just changing the people. tl;dr: MS is still evil.
  - anthonypasq 4y ago
    its not that hard to change it over the course of 25 years when 99.99% of the employees are different people
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    That corporate strategy has failed them recently. They had been doing mobile ever since the mostly fiction pen windows (which became windows CE a few years later) in 1992 but lost that battle so hard with things like Kin and Lumia they dropped out. And let's forget about Zune. At one point they has 95% of the browser market but lost that so much that they completely abandoned their browser engine. Despite all the money they've thrown at projects like Surface and Bing, they have failed to come anywhere near a dominant position. Even in gaming consoles, which has been fairly successful, they're still in 3rd place behind Sony and Nintendo after over 20 years. Their cloud azure is nowhere near AWS ... being a barbarian emperor hasn't been working for them for a long time and demanding the 1970s IBM style vertically integrated infrastructure is not a luxury they have.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > It's a different group of people steering the ship then it was 25 years ago. Is it a different group of people than were steering when they decided to patent troll Android OEMs less than a decade ago? Is it a different group of people than were steering when they started abusing their desktop market share to strong arm their way into the browser market last year? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29415031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29415031) Microsoft didn't change, they're just being more careful now that their position is weaker.
thiht 4y ago
This seems alarmist for no founded reasons. > Then they will be able to start with messing things, like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing Some extensions are already closed source: Remote Development, Python, and probably tons of other which I didn't even notice. So what? What does it change in practice? What's stopping anyone from creating their open source alternative if it bothers them? Now let's say they "extinguish" their extension ecosystem. Then they die and everyone switches to VSCodium and open-vsx for extensions. Again, what's the problem? I honestly think they're in a position where not only the EEE is not their strategy anymore, but also it's not even doable with the state of VSCode. Now, what exactly are your arguments?
whatever1 4y ago
VScode’s killer feature is its remote development capability. Its prevalence could had been averted if Linux folks were not that stuck in command prompt editors for ssh work, and lecturing beginners about their incompetence to learn the keyboard commands of vi. At some point there was some work in forwarding UI via X11, but it was very clunky and slow. The Remote Desktop capabilities of Linux are also atrocious for rendering text. So here we are, Microsoft covered the gaps that the community underplayed for decades, and now is dominating.
- xigoi 4y ago
  https://github.com/jbyuki/instant.nvim https://github.com/jbyuki/instant.nvim
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  Totally agree with this sentiment. Everything else about the VSCode experience more or less exists elsewhere. The turn key (and improving) remote experience is incredible. That the infrastructure also works with the development containers concept is brilliant.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  And VSCode's remote plugin is proprietary, and FOSS is explicitly forbidden from using it. So we're back at "they pretend to care for OSS" and "Microsoft is in the embrace phase".
greatgib 4y ago
Can't edit but yes "gitlab" and not "girls". Shitty android auto-completion!

ZiiS 4y ago

The default Python extension is already proprietary.

worble 4y ago
So is their C# debugger
- notpushkin 4y ago
  There's this FOSS replacement based on Samsung's open source C# debugger: https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp https://open-vsx.org/extension/muhammad-sammy/csharp

roblabla 4y ago

> like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing. Which they are already doing in a lot of places. For instance, the VSCode Python extension replaced the open source language server with a proprietary rewrite (PyLance)[0]. They also have quite a few extensions that are proprietary, like LiveView. And it's worth noting that those extensions explicitly forbid running in anything other than the official VSCode from Microsoft. Forks cannot legally run those extensions, and some of the extensions will have DRM to prevent it from happening[1]. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/n9yse1/as_of_today_updating_the_vs_code_python_extension/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/n9yse1/as_of_today_... [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/k0s8qw/vs_code_developers_prevent_running_the_new/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/k0s8qw/vs_code_devel...

nonethewiser 4y ago
Which means it's not truly OSS. But I dont think its insidious for software to have good proprietary features that make the tool better.
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  It means that there is a truly OSS core VS Code (presumably what Gitlab and Code Sandbox uses), and proprietary extensions on top that Microsoft ship in their default (proprietary) distribution
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    But given that the architecture is open source, there's nothing stopping the people behind e.g. Python from embracing the language server protocol and providing better tooling. Besides time / money, but that ties in to the known problem that open source is very difficult to monetize.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    If someone is a purist and wants to use it to avoid lock-in - it is available at https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium
    - andrew_ 4y ago
      I gave this an earnest try over the course of a few months. There were notable bugs in nearly all of the extensions I needed to use for work. It's known that Microsoft ships custom builds of the open source portion of VS Code, and there's certainly something missing from the open source core. I ended up going back to hobbled Atom while I wait for projects like Zed to mature.
      - matkoniecz 4y ago
        And I am simply not using extensions. (Viable for me, may be not viable for others.)

npteljes 4y ago

Well, they can just fork if something happens, no? Or even phase out this product, if something goes that wrong.

vorpalhex 4y ago
Many core features like remote editing and python support use a DRM so they only run in VSCode and not forks.
- thiht 4y ago
  These are NOT core features. They're literally extensions. Anyone could create an alternative for both of these if they wanted it.

aliswe 4y ago

Sorry, this went over my head. What was that about girls, you said?

petepete 4y ago
On my phone (Pixel) if you type 'gitlab' into the Google Keyboard and it suggests 'girls'.
- dijit 4y ago
  Tangent: Why is autocomplete getting worse on phones? iOS is notably much worse, often replacing completely correct words with other unrelated words. Frustratingly even doing it _again_ when you fix the word.
  - beckingz 4y ago
    I've disabled iOS autocorrect/autocomplete because it's gotten so bad.
    - notjoemama 4y ago
      Thank you! My subconcious has been telling me to do that for ages. I finally just did it and am typing this reply without the hand holding. Feels a bit like taking the training wheels off a bike, but good in the same way too.
    - dijit 4y ago
      I will follow your example, lets see how much it was actually helping me. :)
  - stinos 4y ago
    Feels like a combination of wanting to roll out new 'better' stuff which isn't tested enough, or just not good enough, plus essentially people not really caring and/or thinking that new tech must by definition be better. It's like with orientation detection. You'd think that after a decade this would have been a done thing. On the contrary: it amazes me to no end how many times a day people want to show me something on their phone and then go like 'oh wait..shake phone..nope..shake again..finally got it'. When I ask them why they don't just turn it off or replace it with a hardware or software button they say something about it sometimes working and/or not wanting to lookup where to change the setting. Same with voice control in the past years. This is getting better it seems, slowly, but I can't keep track of the number of times people were getting angry because their words wouldn't come through and the navigation wasn't driving them where they want or their text message were full of bs. Still they persist, seemingly because 'I paid for this new thing so I better try'. Which is utterly nonsensical for an engineering mind.

aaws11 4y ago

girls!

kristopolous 4y ago

Or maybe Microsoft is done being a bastard. It's a different group of people steering the ship then it was 25 years ago. I know how fun it is to presume they are being exclusively evil but who knows, things can change

mikro2nd 4y ago
Or maybe not. It's harder to change an organisational DNA than just changing the people. tl;dr: MS is still evil.
- anthonypasq 4y ago
  its not that hard to change it over the course of 25 years when 99.99% of the employees are different people
- kristopolous 4y ago
  That corporate strategy has failed them recently. They had been doing mobile ever since the mostly fiction pen windows (which became windows CE a few years later) in 1992 but lost that battle so hard with things like Kin and Lumia they dropped out. And let's forget about Zune. At one point they has 95% of the browser market but lost that so much that they completely abandoned their browser engine. Despite all the money they've thrown at projects like Surface and Bing, they have failed to come anywhere near a dominant position. Even in gaming consoles, which has been fairly successful, they're still in 3rd place behind Sony and Nintendo after over 20 years. Their cloud azure is nowhere near AWS ... being a barbarian emperor hasn't been working for them for a long time and demanding the 1970s IBM style vertically integrated infrastructure is not a luxury they have.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> It's a different group of people steering the ship then it was 25 years ago. Is it a different group of people than were steering when they decided to patent troll Android OEMs less than a decade ago? Is it a different group of people than were steering when they started abusing their desktop market share to strong arm their way into the browser market last year? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29415031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29415031) Microsoft didn't change, they're just being more careful now that their position is weaker.

thiht 4y ago

This seems alarmist for no founded reasons. > Then they will be able to start with messing things, like requiring proprietary extensions to lock down the thing Some extensions are already closed source: Remote Development, Python, and probably tons of other which I didn't even notice. So what? What does it change in practice? What's stopping anyone from creating their open source alternative if it bothers them? Now let's say they "extinguish" their extension ecosystem. Then they die and everyone switches to VSCodium and open-vsx for extensions. Again, what's the problem? I honestly think they're in a position where not only the EEE is not their strategy anymore, but also it's not even doable with the state of VSCode. Now, what exactly are your arguments?

whatever1 4y ago

VScode’s killer feature is its remote development capability. Its prevalence could had been averted if Linux folks were not that stuck in command prompt editors for ssh work, and lecturing beginners about their incompetence to learn the keyboard commands of vi. At some point there was some work in forwarding UI via X11, but it was very clunky and slow. The Remote Desktop capabilities of Linux are also atrocious for rendering text. So here we are, Microsoft covered the gaps that the community underplayed for decades, and now is dominating.

xigoi 4y ago
https://github.com/jbyuki/instant.nvim https://github.com/jbyuki/instant.nvim
0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
Totally agree with this sentiment. Everything else about the VSCode experience more or less exists elsewhere. The turn key (and improving) remote experience is incredible. That the infrastructure also works with the development containers concept is brilliant.
yencabulator 4y ago
And VSCode's remote plugin is proprietary, and FOSS is explicitly forbidden from using it. So we're back at "they pretend to care for OSS" and "Microsoft is in the embrace phase".

greatgib 4y ago

Can't edit but yes "gitlab" and not "girls". Shitty android auto-completion!