9 ms·

I really don't understand why people are surprised. If you don't have access to the file itself, you don't own it. "Buying" a movie on a platform or paying for

I really don't understand why people are surprised. If you don't have access to the file itself, you don't own it. "Buying" a movie on a platform or paying for a subscription service are both just paying for a revokable license to access a movie. You do not own it and access can be revoked at any time according to whatever platform's ToS. If you want to own an actual copy of a TV show or movie, buy the physical disc. Optionally you can rip it and store/stream it digitally. Nobody can take that away from you no matter what anyone decides. It's yours forever. If you can't download the file, you don't own it. Also, most of us are comparatively rich, adult, first worlders. If you like something and want to support it, pay for it! If you literally can't get some obscure media, or if the company is no longer selling it, that's different. But piracy of things you like and want more of is not only unethical, it's shortsighted and immature.

dave78 4y ago
A decent portion of the article was devoted to the physical disc option and how it's increasingly uncommon for that to even be offered as a choice.
- rthomas6 4y ago
  Like I said, if the company isn't selling the movie/show anymore, well, what choice do you have?
  - pmontra 4y ago
    Some people buy (rent?) videos and books, then download a DRM free copy from bittorrent.
    - listenallyall 4y ago
      Buying a legit copy doesn't make it legal to download a pirated/illegal copy, any more than buying a band's CD makes it legal to sneak into their concert without a ticket.
      - fragmede 4y ago
        I don't think that analogy holds. If I buy the CD and rip it myself end up with MP3s. If I buy the CD and download a torrent of it, I end up with MP3s. If I buy a ticket and bring my tape recorder into their concert, I can listen to my recording of that concert forever.
        listenallyall 4y ago
        Lol. By default, you can't record a concert either, although some bands do encourage the practice. There's a reason they are called "bootlegs".
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        >>By default, you can't record a concert either, Under what law? The venue may redistrict it, that is not a law though at most they could do to you for violation is kick you out There is no law I am aware of that prevents such a recording, only redistribution of the recording made would be a violation of the law
      - achr2 4y ago
        That’s a false equivalency, the first takes nothing extra from the purveyor, the second takes significant revenue directly from the artist.
        listenallyall 4y ago
        So you are claiming that downloading illegal torrents is in fact legal?
        TylerE 4y ago
        Yes. Uploading them on the other hand…
        pbhjpbhj 4y ago
        It sounds like they're saying that if you pay, then it's just as moral to acquire your copy from a torrent as from a product. Would you disagree? The creators get the same (small) cut, the buyer gets the same product, so what's wrong with it?
  - manicennui 4y ago
    Not watching it?
dylan604 4y ago
>If you don't have access to the file itself, you don't own it. This isn't the full story either though. You can be in possession of a file that has a DRM encryption applied. If the service revokes you keys, that encrypted file in your possession is worthless. So, do you really own that file?
- watt 4y ago
  The "file" OP refers to is the encryption key. And, I will reiterate, if you don't have "the file" you don't have shit.
  - peder 4y ago
    Also better make sure your device doesn't receive a software update that wipes out access in the future based on some arbitrary licensing decision.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      This is why the only real way to keep copies of media for future viewing is to have them in a completely DRM-free format that can be viewed using any open-source player software. Don't settle for anything less.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  Or the converse! Think of the way GOG sells DRM-free installers -- GOG sells you a license, sure, just like everyone else, but they give you a DRM-free installer, which is bit-perfect to the version of that installer shared on the Pirate Bay's eternal decentralized tracker. Can I pirate that installer? When I'm caught, which file is the pirated version, and which is the legitimate one I got from GOG's servers? If I wave around my emailed receipt, is that (moral) license enough?
  - footlose_3815 4y ago
    And oddly enough, Amazon has DRM-free MP3s. (who knows how long they will host them). And the UI is hard to use / doesn't work in-bulk to get the MP3s you downloaded.
jrm4 4y ago
The last paragraph wasn't necessary to me; while I'm glad we have "if you can't pay I understand" -- but I also think that "if you can pay you always should" isn't nuanced enough? I imagine few of us want "cable all over again," but that's what it looks like we're headed toward? Offhand, I'd e.g. like to pay for individual shows. Let me pay $5 for Severance and I literally need nothing else from Apple TV.
- indigodaddy 4y ago
  You can already do that with Vudu/iTunes/Amazon (maybe not the $5 part but sales fire off frequently enough for tv shows if you keep your eye out on Slickdeals / CheapCharts etc)
  - nataz 4y ago
    Careful with Amazon. I bought a ton of MP3 records off their platform over the years, and recently it all went to hell. I'll take responsibility for not downloading it all right away, but I still think their recent behavior was sketchy. My mistake was listening to the music that I owned using Amazon's music player. I'd download it locally to whatever device I was using, but my collection was large enough that I rarely kept it all on my mobile devices. When they changed their subscription model for amazon music I no longer was able to stream my music that I had bought. I couldn't even download it on mobile. Zero explanation of what happened. Instead I had to login on my desktop, and download tracks one by one. It was painfully slow and totally unintuitive. Keep in mind this all happened without explanation as it relates to music you owned, but still resided on their servers. It was pretty clear that they wanted you to sign up for the new streaming service and we're making it hard to get to your music otherwise.
    - Nomentatus 4y ago
      When Amazon moved Canadian kindle customers to its new Canadian site - it wiped out all owned copies of magazines and newspapers. I'd purchased a fair number but had read few; all gone forever no apology, no refund.
  - 4y ago
ezfe 4y ago
Well, a subscription service is literally a subscription access, of course. If you buy an iTunes movie and keep the downloaded file (there is a single file), it works so long as you retain an iTunes account (it is DRM protected, that DRM is account-specific, NOT media-specific)
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  except i have some protected songs that i cant play because the provider went out of business
  - ezfe 4y ago
    From iTunes? I specifically refer to iTunes. iTunes is the de-facto Music and Movie purchase platform (not referring to any subscription services).
- FormerBandmate 4y ago
  Apple has removed movies from accounts many times before (https://www.extremetech.com/internet/276982-apple-is-deleting-movies-customers-purchased-on-itunes-denying-refunds https://www.extremetech.com/internet/276982-apple-is-deletin...). As with HBO Max, it's entirely up to the producer's discretion
  - ezfe 4y ago
    What you linked to does not affect what I described. It only affects ability to redownload the file. If you still have the movie, it keeps working. Originally, one couldn't even re-download a movie after purchase.
browningstreet 4y ago
It’s hard to take things away from people and charge the same amount of money and not have a consumer friendly reason for doing it. Even casual access to programming content. Customers don’t care about corporate mergers.
layer8 4y ago
> If you want to own an actual copy of a TV show or movie, buy the physical disc. For the vast majority of new TV shows, that option simply doesn’t exist anymore. It’s been that way for a couple of years now. You can only hope to find a torrent in good enough quality.
- ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
  Just checked, you can get all of Westworld on BluRay.
  - layer8 4y ago
    Westworld is an exception. Only a few shows still get Blu-ray releases. For example, looking at Rotten Tomatoes’ list of the best TV show of 2020, only a good 10% have a US Blu-ray release: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/best-tv-shows-of-2020/ https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/best-tv-shows-of-... For what I personally watch, it’s more like 5% at most.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > Only a few shows still get Blu-ray releases. > For example, looking at Rotten Tomatoes’ list of the best TV show of 2020, only a good 10% have a US Blu-ray release That's a top 129 list. "The 129 most popular TV shows in 2020" is not a category of much interest. How many of the top 130 American TV shows in 2007 have a blu-ray release?
      - jackson1442 4y ago
        that’s the point, that it’s hard to get your hands on physical copies of tv shows
    - Mistletoe 4y ago
      I'd say this is a chicken and egg situation where if anyone would buy those instead of pirate them, they would make the discs.
phpisthebest 4y ago
>>If you can't download the file, you don't own it. I would append that with "If you cant download the file, DRM free, in a format that can be read with OpenSource Software you do not own it
Eleison23 4y ago
[dead]
forrestthewoods 4y ago
> I really don't understand why people are surprised. Because this is the first time anything quite like this has happened. Yes I know shows disappear from streaming platforms all the time. Anyone who says they aren’t surprised is, imho, full of shit. This is surprising because the economics of it seemingly don’t make sense. Which means the contracts must be structured in a way that people didn’t expect. TBH eve after the announcement it still doesn’t make sense to me! The only way it can sense is if you know the contract details. And I’m pretty sure you don’t, which means I think you’re full of shit. I’m not trying to be rude, just honest! However if you do know what the Westworld contract looked like please let us all know!

dave78 4y ago

A decent portion of the article was devoted to the physical disc option and how it's increasingly uncommon for that to even be offered as a choice.

rthomas6 4y ago
Like I said, if the company isn't selling the movie/show anymore, well, what choice do you have?
- pmontra 4y ago
  Some people buy (rent?) videos and books, then download a DRM free copy from bittorrent.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    Buying a legit copy doesn't make it legal to download a pirated/illegal copy, any more than buying a band's CD makes it legal to sneak into their concert without a ticket.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      I don't think that analogy holds. If I buy the CD and rip it myself end up with MP3s. If I buy the CD and download a torrent of it, I end up with MP3s. If I buy a ticket and bring my tape recorder into their concert, I can listen to my recording of that concert forever.
      - listenallyall 4y ago
        Lol. By default, you can't record a concert either, although some bands do encourage the practice. There's a reason they are called "bootlegs".
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        >>By default, you can't record a concert either, Under what law? The venue may redistrict it, that is not a law though at most they could do to you for violation is kick you out There is no law I am aware of that prevents such a recording, only redistribution of the recording made would be a violation of the law
    - achr2 4y ago
      That’s a false equivalency, the first takes nothing extra from the purveyor, the second takes significant revenue directly from the artist.
      - listenallyall 4y ago
        So you are claiming that downloading illegal torrents is in fact legal?
        TylerE 4y ago
        Yes. Uploading them on the other hand…
        pbhjpbhj 4y ago
        It sounds like they're saying that if you pay, then it's just as moral to acquire your copy from a torrent as from a product. Would you disagree? The creators get the same (small) cut, the buyer gets the same product, so what's wrong with it?
- manicennui 4y ago
  Not watching it?

dylan604 4y ago

>If you don't have access to the file itself, you don't own it. This isn't the full story either though. You can be in possession of a file that has a DRM encryption applied. If the service revokes you keys, that encrypted file in your possession is worthless. So, do you really own that file?

watt 4y ago
The "file" OP refers to is the encryption key. And, I will reiterate, if you don't have "the file" you don't have shit.
- peder 4y ago
  Also better make sure your device doesn't receive a software update that wipes out access in the future based on some arbitrary licensing decision.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    This is why the only real way to keep copies of media for future viewing is to have them in a completely DRM-free format that can be viewed using any open-source player software. Don't settle for anything less.
revolvingocelot 4y ago
Or the converse! Think of the way GOG sells DRM-free installers -- GOG sells you a license, sure, just like everyone else, but they give you a DRM-free installer, which is bit-perfect to the version of that installer shared on the Pirate Bay's eternal decentralized tracker. Can I pirate that installer? When I'm caught, which file is the pirated version, and which is the legitimate one I got from GOG's servers? If I wave around my emailed receipt, is that (moral) license enough?
- footlose_3815 4y ago
  And oddly enough, Amazon has DRM-free MP3s. (who knows how long they will host them). And the UI is hard to use / doesn't work in-bulk to get the MP3s you downloaded.

jrm4 4y ago

The last paragraph wasn't necessary to me; while I'm glad we have "if you can't pay I understand" -- but I also think that "if you can pay you always should" isn't nuanced enough? I imagine few of us want "cable all over again," but that's what it looks like we're headed toward? Offhand, I'd e.g. like to pay for individual shows. Let me pay $5 for Severance and I literally need nothing else from Apple TV.

indigodaddy 4y ago
You can already do that with Vudu/iTunes/Amazon (maybe not the $5 part but sales fire off frequently enough for tv shows if you keep your eye out on Slickdeals / CheapCharts etc)
- nataz 4y ago
  Careful with Amazon. I bought a ton of MP3 records off their platform over the years, and recently it all went to hell. I'll take responsibility for not downloading it all right away, but I still think their recent behavior was sketchy. My mistake was listening to the music that I owned using Amazon's music player. I'd download it locally to whatever device I was using, but my collection was large enough that I rarely kept it all on my mobile devices. When they changed their subscription model for amazon music I no longer was able to stream my music that I had bought. I couldn't even download it on mobile. Zero explanation of what happened. Instead I had to login on my desktop, and download tracks one by one. It was painfully slow and totally unintuitive. Keep in mind this all happened without explanation as it relates to music you owned, but still resided on their servers. It was pretty clear that they wanted you to sign up for the new streaming service and we're making it hard to get to your music otherwise.
  - Nomentatus 4y ago
    When Amazon moved Canadian kindle customers to its new Canadian site - it wiped out all owned copies of magazines and newspapers. I'd purchased a fair number but had read few; all gone forever no apology, no refund.
- 4y ago

ezfe 4y ago

Well, a subscription service is literally a subscription access, of course. If you buy an iTunes movie and keep the downloaded file (there is a single file), it works so long as you retain an iTunes account (it is DRM protected, that DRM is account-specific, NOT media-specific)

readthenotes1 4y ago
except i have some protected songs that i cant play because the provider went out of business
- ezfe 4y ago
  From iTunes? I specifically refer to iTunes. iTunes is the de-facto Music and Movie purchase platform (not referring to any subscription services).
FormerBandmate 4y ago
Apple has removed movies from accounts many times before (https://www.extremetech.com/internet/276982-apple-is-deleting-movies-customers-purchased-on-itunes-denying-refunds https://www.extremetech.com/internet/276982-apple-is-deletin...). As with HBO Max, it's entirely up to the producer's discretion
- ezfe 4y ago
  What you linked to does not affect what I described. It only affects ability to redownload the file. If you still have the movie, it keeps working. Originally, one couldn't even re-download a movie after purchase.

browningstreet 4y ago

It’s hard to take things away from people and charge the same amount of money and not have a consumer friendly reason for doing it. Even casual access to programming content. Customers don’t care about corporate mergers.

layer8 4y ago

> If you want to own an actual copy of a TV show or movie, buy the physical disc. For the vast majority of new TV shows, that option simply doesn’t exist anymore. It’s been that way for a couple of years now. You can only hope to find a torrent in good enough quality.

ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
Just checked, you can get all of Westworld on BluRay.
- layer8 4y ago
  Westworld is an exception. Only a few shows still get Blu-ray releases. For example, looking at Rotten Tomatoes’ list of the best TV show of 2020, only a good 10% have a US Blu-ray release: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/best-tv-shows-of-2020/ https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/best-tv-shows-of-... For what I personally watch, it’s more like 5% at most.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Only a few shows still get Blu-ray releases. > For example, looking at Rotten Tomatoes’ list of the best TV show of 2020, only a good 10% have a US Blu-ray release That's a top 129 list. "The 129 most popular TV shows in 2020" is not a category of much interest. How many of the top 130 American TV shows in 2007 have a blu-ray release?
    - jackson1442 4y ago
      that’s the point, that it’s hard to get your hands on physical copies of tv shows
  - Mistletoe 4y ago
    I'd say this is a chicken and egg situation where if anyone would buy those instead of pirate them, they would make the discs.

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>If you can't download the file, you don't own it. I would append that with "If you cant download the file, DRM free, in a format that can be read with OpenSource Software you do not own it

Eleison23 4y ago

[dead]

forrestthewoods 4y ago

> I really don't understand why people are surprised. Because this is the first time anything quite like this has happened. Yes I know shows disappear from streaming platforms all the time. Anyone who says they aren’t surprised is, imho, full of shit. This is surprising because the economics of it seemingly don’t make sense. Which means the contracts must be structured in a way that people didn’t expect. TBH eve after the announcement it still doesn’t make sense to me! The only way it can sense is if you know the contract details. And I’m pretty sure you don’t, which means I think you’re full of shit. I’m not trying to be rude, just honest! However if you do know what the Westworld contract looked like please let us all know!