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I support free speech and consider myself a libertarian, having much in common with the populist-libertarian-right, and the civil-liberties-left. But tracking

I support free speech and consider myself a libertarian, having much in common with the populist-libertarian-right, and the civil-liberties-left. But tracking a flight like this on a regular basis to this intrusive a level strikes me as downright creepy and personally invasive. Are you going to track the locations of his vehicles and where they park next? An alternative argument - if we're going to do it to him, maybe we should do the same to everyone (which is crazy because no one cares that much about random plane movements from rich guys unless they are politically connected, or green hypocrites, or involved in some crime, but Law Enforcement protects this data etc)

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>unless they are politically connected You might as well say 'everyone'. Anyone rich enough to use, let alone own, a private jet is almost by default politically connected.
yanderekko 4y ago
>But tracking a flight like this on a regular basis to this intrusive a level strikes me as downright creepy and personally invasive. Yeah, people are saying "it's public info about a public figure", but I'm pretty sure that we could imagine all sorts of creepy-yet-legal digital gang-stalking that one can do, similar to how doxxing is legal but nearly-universally frowned upon. Not to say that the account should have been banned, but I don't see this as just harmless fun like others seem to.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  Sometimes I feel like these public figures should be tracked even more - like who has been on Epstein's flight / island and should get a hard drive check. In theory the various intelligence services and the FAA have this information, but it's not acted on.
- fundad 4y ago
  He took the company private to promote his politics. There have been lies about free speech for as long as there has been speech. Can we stop clutching our pearls over this reactionary being, gasp, dishonest?
  - yanderekko 4y ago
    What does this have to do with what I said? If someone had punched Elon on the street and I had said "hey maybe that's not cool", would you be posting this same reply? Must bad, therefore the gloves are off?
    - fundad 4y ago
      Ok I’ll reframe. The speech doesn’t have to cause harm under new moderation rules, it’s all this guy’s toy. Nobody is punching Musk not even with a fire extinguisher
      - fundad 4y ago
        And the private company perma-banned the guy. Funny because the legacy content moderation did take harm into account and the new rules line is whether a rich dude takes offense.
jeromegv 4y ago
You are either a free speech absolutist or you are not. The moment you start putting exceptions because you consider it "creepy", then your support of free speech is the same as what most of the population believes in: free speech with limits. It's interesting that you would put this at your limit because this is free and public data.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  I do not agree. Just because I support free speech, doesn't mean I need to know your private medical conditions Just because I support free speech, doesn't mean we need all potential targets of political assassination to have their schedules always publicly available with arrival and departure times with 10 digit grid coordinates Just because I support free speech doesn't mean everyone should be able to track everyone else's cell phones, which are a proxy for a person's physical location
  - jmull 4y ago
    Aren't you fully agreeing with how PP points out most people support free speech: free speech with limits?
  - thatswrong0 4y ago
    ADS-B data is public information. Anyone who wants to target Elon for whatever reason using this data does not need to go to Twitter to do it. Whereas.. private medical information is private. Why on earth are y’all licking one of the richest people on Earths boots. The man is clearly using his power and money to stifle speech that that is critical of him. That’s not something that needs defending.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      Elon's jet is flying around on public infrastructure. Airports, airspace, air traffic control, etc. Just like driving on public roads, you have no expectation of privacy if someone wants to sit on a street corner and write down every time you drive by. The side effects of ADS-B have been really great in this regard. I love it.
hhh 4y ago
The data is public. Does taking publicly accessible data and tweeting it make it creepy? Or is more a problem to you that all the data is public? You could hide within this, say, you know, take a first class flight somewhere on a commercial plane. The price you pay for having your own plane is that your plane's movements are public. I personally support all of this data being public, it's generally a great way to gain information on clandestine government activities.
- suyash 4y ago
  Public data doesn't give you licenses to act unethically and immorally, laws are oftentimes poorly written.
  - ProAm 4y ago
    He's not doing anything unethical or immoral.
    - suyash 4y ago
      invasion of privacy ?
      - wnkrshm 4y ago
        What's in the plane is private, where the plane is isn't. Twitter (and Musk) has access to pinpoint each of their users with the same precision, I feel it's a poetic balance.
      - adbachman 4y ago
        whose, the airplane's?
      - ProAm 4y ago
        This is all public information already. There is no invasion of privacy.
    - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
ixwt 4y ago
From what I've heard (I haven't searched for verification) hedge funds do watch private flights in an attempt to be ahead of merger announcements.
- Thlom 4y ago
  They probably do, they also use satellite imagery and AIS data to track cargo loading/unloading in ports and whatever else there is out there of data which might say something about the economy or specific companies or sectors or whatever.
4ndrewl 4y ago
His aircraft literally broadcasts this information through the sky. It's hardly tracking. And yes, we do it to everyone. Take a look at adsbexchange or flightaware.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
The account clearly doesn't violate the NAP so it's libertarian-approved.
darksaints 4y ago
Umm, we do do the same to everyone. Flight trackers use public data.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  The only thing is that some sites remove flights based on whether they're on a list: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd
LastTrain 4y ago
We're all Libertarians aren't we. Your arguments aside, Musk said he would not ban this account because he believed in the free speech issue. So he's a liar and a hypocrite. May I ask what drives you to use your free time to run to the defense of a billionaire, who has the most popular social media tool on planet earth at his disposal?
ericmay 4y ago
How is it any different than paparazzi? Problem here is that there are clearly free speech bounds, but Elon Musk has campaigned publically about being a "free speech absolutist" which would entail not curbing any form of speech. You can always find compelling arguments for banning speech or forms of speech and we'll continue to draw and redraw lines as a society. But you can't go around claiming to have some absolute principle and then renege on it any time it hurts your feelings and continue to be respected. Can you think of anyone else who has their flights tracked? Are Bill Gates' flights tracked? Why do you think that is? Also being a public figure means that you lose some amount of privacy. If he doesn't want all this drama he could just stop talking and being a highly prominent public figure. Now we're just going to get a flight tracking website instead, probably with new features. I think there are at least two problems with your alternative argument, if not more. The first problem is Elon Musk is politically connected and operates in the public sphere as a highly political person. The second problem is that there isn't anything that prevents people from tracking other rich people like they do Elon, except that nobody cares about what they do because they don't do things like buy Twitter. If you want a change I think you have to make private flight information unavailable, but until then I don't see any real problem with it. Stop flying a private jet if you don't like people posting where you are flying to and from. There isn't anything that prevents someone from reporting everywhere I go except that nobody cares. Hell, I self-report it on Yelp.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>unless they are politically connected You might as well say 'everyone'. Anyone rich enough to use, let alone own, a private jet is almost by default politically connected.

yanderekko 4y ago

>But tracking a flight like this on a regular basis to this intrusive a level strikes me as downright creepy and personally invasive. Yeah, people are saying "it's public info about a public figure", but I'm pretty sure that we could imagine all sorts of creepy-yet-legal digital gang-stalking that one can do, similar to how doxxing is legal but nearly-universally frowned upon. Not to say that the account should have been banned, but I don't see this as just harmless fun like others seem to.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
Sometimes I feel like these public figures should be tracked even more - like who has been on Epstein's flight / island and should get a hard drive check. In theory the various intelligence services and the FAA have this information, but it's not acted on.
fundad 4y ago
He took the company private to promote his politics. There have been lies about free speech for as long as there has been speech. Can we stop clutching our pearls over this reactionary being, gasp, dishonest?
- yanderekko 4y ago
  What does this have to do with what I said? If someone had punched Elon on the street and I had said "hey maybe that's not cool", would you be posting this same reply? Must bad, therefore the gloves are off?
  - fundad 4y ago
    Ok I’ll reframe. The speech doesn’t have to cause harm under new moderation rules, it’s all this guy’s toy. Nobody is punching Musk not even with a fire extinguisher
    - fundad 4y ago
      And the private company perma-banned the guy. Funny because the legacy content moderation did take harm into account and the new rules line is whether a rich dude takes offense.

jeromegv 4y ago

You are either a free speech absolutist or you are not. The moment you start putting exceptions because you consider it "creepy", then your support of free speech is the same as what most of the population believes in: free speech with limits. It's interesting that you would put this at your limit because this is free and public data.

OrvalWintermute 4y ago
I do not agree. Just because I support free speech, doesn't mean I need to know your private medical conditions Just because I support free speech, doesn't mean we need all potential targets of political assassination to have their schedules always publicly available with arrival and departure times with 10 digit grid coordinates Just because I support free speech doesn't mean everyone should be able to track everyone else's cell phones, which are a proxy for a person's physical location
- jmull 4y ago
  Aren't you fully agreeing with how PP points out most people support free speech: free speech with limits?
- thatswrong0 4y ago
  ADS-B data is public information. Anyone who wants to target Elon for whatever reason using this data does not need to go to Twitter to do it. Whereas.. private medical information is private. Why on earth are y’all licking one of the richest people on Earths boots. The man is clearly using his power and money to stifle speech that that is critical of him. That’s not something that needs defending.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - joezydeco 4y ago
    Elon's jet is flying around on public infrastructure. Airports, airspace, air traffic control, etc. Just like driving on public roads, you have no expectation of privacy if someone wants to sit on a street corner and write down every time you drive by. The side effects of ADS-B have been really great in this regard. I love it.

hhh 4y ago

The data is public. Does taking publicly accessible data and tweeting it make it creepy? Or is more a problem to you that all the data is public? You could hide within this, say, you know, take a first class flight somewhere on a commercial plane. The price you pay for having your own plane is that your plane's movements are public. I personally support all of this data being public, it's generally a great way to gain information on clandestine government activities.

suyash 4y ago
Public data doesn't give you licenses to act unethically and immorally, laws are oftentimes poorly written.
- ProAm 4y ago
  He's not doing anything unethical or immoral.
  - suyash 4y ago
    invasion of privacy ?
    - wnkrshm 4y ago
      What's in the plane is private, where the plane is isn't. Twitter (and Musk) has access to pinpoint each of their users with the same precision, I feel it's a poetic balance.
    - adbachman 4y ago
      whose, the airplane's?
    - ProAm 4y ago
      This is all public information already. There is no invasion of privacy.
  - OrvalWintermute 4y ago

ixwt 4y ago

From what I've heard (I haven't searched for verification) hedge funds do watch private flights in an attempt to be ahead of merger announcements.

Thlom 4y ago
They probably do, they also use satellite imagery and AIS data to track cargo loading/unloading in ports and whatever else there is out there of data which might say something about the economy or specific companies or sectors or whatever.

4ndrewl 4y ago

His aircraft literally broadcasts this information through the sky. It's hardly tracking. And yes, we do it to everyone. Take a look at adsbexchange or flightaware.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

The account clearly doesn't violate the NAP so it's libertarian-approved.

darksaints 4y ago

Umm, we do do the same to everyone. Flight trackers use public data.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
The only thing is that some sites remove flights based on whether they're on a list: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd

LastTrain 4y ago

We're all Libertarians aren't we. Your arguments aside, Musk said he would not ban this account because he believed in the free speech issue. So he's a liar and a hypocrite. May I ask what drives you to use your free time to run to the defense of a billionaire, who has the most popular social media tool on planet earth at his disposal?

ericmay 4y ago

How is it any different than paparazzi? Problem here is that there are clearly free speech bounds, but Elon Musk has campaigned publically about being a "free speech absolutist" which would entail not curbing any form of speech. You can always find compelling arguments for banning speech or forms of speech and we'll continue to draw and redraw lines as a society. But you can't go around claiming to have some absolute principle and then renege on it any time it hurts your feelings and continue to be respected. Can you think of anyone else who has their flights tracked? Are Bill Gates' flights tracked? Why do you think that is? Also being a public figure means that you lose some amount of privacy. If he doesn't want all this drama he could just stop talking and being a highly prominent public figure. Now we're just going to get a flight tracking website instead, probably with new features. I think there are at least two problems with your alternative argument, if not more. The first problem is Elon Musk is politically connected and operates in the public sphere as a highly political person. The second problem is that there isn't anything that prevents people from tracking other rich people like they do Elon, except that nobody cares about what they do because they don't do things like buy Twitter. If you want a change I think you have to make private flight information unavailable, but until then I don't see any real problem with it. Stop flying a private jet if you don't like people posting where you are flying to and from. There isn't anything that prevents someone from reporting everywhere I go except that nobody cares. Hell, I self-report it on Yelp.