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As a developer, I understand this sentiment. As an iPhone user however, I don't want the power to shift to developers, because I know developers have financial

As a developer, I understand this sentiment. As an iPhone user however, I don't want the power to shift to developers, because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. If you value openness, then I suggest you use and develop apps for Android.

smoldesu 4y ago
> because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. Like how Apple's interests can be at-odds with your own. If developers have control over your device, you're not empowered as a user. > A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords So, give it to them. Our interests are not mutually exclusive, you can make a device with both a walled garden and a developer mode. It's not rocket science, at least when you have 200 billion dollars in R&D cash sitting in your coffers.
- cmdli 4y ago
  The trouble is that if large tech companies are given the opportunity, they will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not for the user. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with another tech company like Apple.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation, which the United States is pathologically opposed to. Foreign countries have to write their own consumer protection laws because US juggernaut tech companies are so ruthless. Shareholders fear nothing as much as regulatory backlash. You're at least right about one thing. Large tech companies will always exploit opportunities to limit the user, which is a privilege Apple has abused for too long. It's time for computing to be democratized again, even if we need to drag Apple though the mud to get there.
    - joshmanders 4y ago
      > That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation I don't know if you realize this, but OP and you are saying the same thing, they are just saying it slightly different. You: To stand up to large company bullying you need to regulate them through the government. OP: To stand up to large company bullying you, you need another large company who has the pockets and sway to bring change through congress because our government is bought and paid for by corporations.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        We're strongman-ing two sides of the same coin. They're arguing that the free market will solve this, whereas I'm arguing that proactive measures are required. Apple's business is designed so that it cannot be disrupted without forcing them to abide by a common set of rules. By leaving those rules undefined, we have clearly not encouraged innovation or disruption. Our only option is to define our consumer rights that we should have instated a long time ago.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kaba0 4y ago
        One of these is a fairy tail though. The free market doesn’t work like that, and that is a nice way to further empower companies.
    - bamboozled 4y ago
      Isn't this what Apple is kind of doing though? It's regulating your iPhone so you don't have to? I really don't want idealists to mess up the iPhone's stability, performance and security so people can use the minecraft app store or whatever.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Apple can still regulate your iPhone if they want. They just have to do so with the option to disable that regulation, which seems like a fair concession to me. Macs pull this off without a problem, even letting you install another OS if you're dissatisfied with MacOS. Apple just needs to bring that same philosophy to iPhone, and developers won't be mad at them.
  - anubiskhan 4y ago
    Doesn't that suggest that Apple, a large tech company, will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not the user?
  - jerojero 4y ago
    This doesn't happen on Android. Why would it happen in iOS? Discoverability and the ease of access that the playstore/appstore provides is enough to pretty much always want to have your app up there. The main difference is that there are a lot of apps that are simply not allowed in the appstore or that you need to change substantially to comply with apple's rules. For example, Telegram has censored content if you download the app from the appstore given Apple's pornography laws. Other apps that might be used to infringe on copyright are outright not allowed (they're also not allowed on the playstore, but you can install them from the apk or a third party store). Now, maybe you think these restrictions are appropriate and that's fine... for you. Other people might want the freedom of doing more with their devices that they paid hundreds and hundreds of dollars for without having to resort to extreme measures. The argument Apple uses is bullshit and the EU saw through it.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Not even facebook is big enough to make people go way out of their way and install it. The easy way will always be the popular.
  - agust 4y ago
    You realise that's what Apple has been doing for the past 15 years? Force users to do what's best for them, and only them? Anti-competitive practices do not serve customers, they increase prices and prevent innovation.
  - frumper 4y ago
    Aren't you advocating Apple forcing users to do what is best for Apple? Users benefit on both sides of this coin in different ways.
dmalik 4y ago
Don't use 3rd party stores then if that's what you're worried about as a user.
pessimizer 4y ago
> A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. To state the obvious: if this were true, Apple wouldn't have to force the issue. Apple's app store would be a premium that they would charge users extra for. Getting your apps from 3rd-party stores would be the equivalent of the green bubble.
alexiaa 4y ago
the "use android" argument is getting really tiring. as someone who used to be an android user for years and still somewhat keeps up with the ecosystem, ios and most apps written for it (including major apps like twitter) are far more polished than whatever mess google is doing with android (and manufacturers make it even worse). i much prefer having the polished ios experience while being able to sideload and possibly even jailbreak my phone. and then there's imessage too, though we'll see what happens with that after the dma. and the argument about "giving developers power" simply doesn't hold any water. android openly allows sideloading with the google play store having very similar rules to the app store, and yet i can count the number of major apps that force or even offer a sideloaded version on one hand. the only ones that come to mind are fortnite (removed from google play) and telegram (on play store, but sideloaded version has faster updates and less censorship).
- anomaly_ 4y ago
  That iOS polish is largely a byproduct of the walled garden approach. Users are incentivised to spend within the ecosystem due to the safety, security and support provided by Apple.
  - zamadatix 4y ago
    This argument would only make sense if the vast majority of Android spend was outside the Play ecosystem, which it is not. The second part "The safety, security and support provided by Apple." sounds more like a general Apple press release than something related to app polish. If most people actually choose iOS/iPhones primarily because of the App Store quality/protections/ecosystem then people will continue to choose the App Store regardless if sideloading is possible - after all we just said that's the whole reason most bought the phone in the first place. If on the other hand people are choosing iOS/iPhones for other reasons and you're worried nobody else will use the App Store anymore then I don't really buy "there aren't enough of us so it should be allowed to hold a captive market to support our use case" as a reasonable argument even though I see it quite often on HN.
- cronix 4y ago
  Another for your list...all DJI drone software requires sideloading on android.
amelius 4y ago
What is the problem with a model where the phone manufacturer gives the user power to control privileges given to the developers?
kaba0 4y ago
I never really understood this sentiment. How come Android phones are not riddled with bugs then? Or OSX? It is simply the job of the sandbox and OS security to prevent security/privacy violations.
urthor 4y ago
The issue isn't the walled garden. The issue is the monopolistic price gouging Apple charges for access to the walled garden. If you took the "policing for developer's short circuiting the 30% cut" out of Apple's approval process, everything in their ecosystem works out fairly nicely. The core issue is, simply, that Apple price gouges enormously.

smoldesu 4y ago

> because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. Like how Apple's interests can be at-odds with your own. If developers have control over your device, you're not empowered as a user. > A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords So, give it to them. Our interests are not mutually exclusive, you can make a device with both a walled garden and a developer mode. It's not rocket science, at least when you have 200 billion dollars in R&D cash sitting in your coffers.

cmdli 4y ago
The trouble is that if large tech companies are given the opportunity, they will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not for the user. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with another tech company like Apple.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation, which the United States is pathologically opposed to. Foreign countries have to write their own consumer protection laws because US juggernaut tech companies are so ruthless. Shareholders fear nothing as much as regulatory backlash. You're at least right about one thing. Large tech companies will always exploit opportunities to limit the user, which is a privilege Apple has abused for too long. It's time for computing to be democratized again, even if we need to drag Apple though the mud to get there.
  - joshmanders 4y ago
    > That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation I don't know if you realize this, but OP and you are saying the same thing, they are just saying it slightly different. You: To stand up to large company bullying you need to regulate them through the government. OP: To stand up to large company bullying you, you need another large company who has the pockets and sway to bring change through congress because our government is bought and paid for by corporations.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      We're strongman-ing two sides of the same coin. They're arguing that the free market will solve this, whereas I'm arguing that proactive measures are required. Apple's business is designed so that it cannot be disrupted without forcing them to abide by a common set of rules. By leaving those rules undefined, we have clearly not encouraged innovation or disruption. Our only option is to define our consumer rights that we should have instated a long time ago.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - kaba0 4y ago
      One of these is a fairy tail though. The free market doesn’t work like that, and that is a nice way to further empower companies.
  - bamboozled 4y ago
    Isn't this what Apple is kind of doing though? It's regulating your iPhone so you don't have to? I really don't want idealists to mess up the iPhone's stability, performance and security so people can use the minecraft app store or whatever.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Apple can still regulate your iPhone if they want. They just have to do so with the option to disable that regulation, which seems like a fair concession to me. Macs pull this off without a problem, even letting you install another OS if you're dissatisfied with MacOS. Apple just needs to bring that same philosophy to iPhone, and developers won't be mad at them.
- anubiskhan 4y ago
  Doesn't that suggest that Apple, a large tech company, will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not the user?
- jerojero 4y ago
  This doesn't happen on Android. Why would it happen in iOS? Discoverability and the ease of access that the playstore/appstore provides is enough to pretty much always want to have your app up there. The main difference is that there are a lot of apps that are simply not allowed in the appstore or that you need to change substantially to comply with apple's rules. For example, Telegram has censored content if you download the app from the appstore given Apple's pornography laws. Other apps that might be used to infringe on copyright are outright not allowed (they're also not allowed on the playstore, but you can install them from the apk or a third party store). Now, maybe you think these restrictions are appropriate and that's fine... for you. Other people might want the freedom of doing more with their devices that they paid hundreds and hundreds of dollars for without having to resort to extreme measures. The argument Apple uses is bullshit and the EU saw through it.
- kaba0 4y ago
  Not even facebook is big enough to make people go way out of their way and install it. The easy way will always be the popular.
- agust 4y ago
  You realise that's what Apple has been doing for the past 15 years? Force users to do what's best for them, and only them? Anti-competitive practices do not serve customers, they increase prices and prevent innovation.
- frumper 4y ago
  Aren't you advocating Apple forcing users to do what is best for Apple? Users benefit on both sides of this coin in different ways.

dmalik 4y ago

Don't use 3rd party stores then if that's what you're worried about as a user.

pessimizer 4y ago

> A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. To state the obvious: if this were true, Apple wouldn't have to force the issue. Apple's app store would be a premium that they would charge users extra for. Getting your apps from 3rd-party stores would be the equivalent of the green bubble.

alexiaa 4y ago

the "use android" argument is getting really tiring. as someone who used to be an android user for years and still somewhat keeps up with the ecosystem, ios and most apps written for it (including major apps like twitter) are far more polished than whatever mess google is doing with android (and manufacturers make it even worse). i much prefer having the polished ios experience while being able to sideload and possibly even jailbreak my phone. and then there's imessage too, though we'll see what happens with that after the dma. and the argument about "giving developers power" simply doesn't hold any water. android openly allows sideloading with the google play store having very similar rules to the app store, and yet i can count the number of major apps that force or even offer a sideloaded version on one hand. the only ones that come to mind are fortnite (removed from google play) and telegram (on play store, but sideloaded version has faster updates and less censorship).

anomaly_ 4y ago
That iOS polish is largely a byproduct of the walled garden approach. Users are incentivised to spend within the ecosystem due to the safety, security and support provided by Apple.
- zamadatix 4y ago
  This argument would only make sense if the vast majority of Android spend was outside the Play ecosystem, which it is not. The second part "The safety, security and support provided by Apple." sounds more like a general Apple press release than something related to app polish. If most people actually choose iOS/iPhones primarily because of the App Store quality/protections/ecosystem then people will continue to choose the App Store regardless if sideloading is possible - after all we just said that's the whole reason most bought the phone in the first place. If on the other hand people are choosing iOS/iPhones for other reasons and you're worried nobody else will use the App Store anymore then I don't really buy "there aren't enough of us so it should be allowed to hold a captive market to support our use case" as a reasonable argument even though I see it quite often on HN.
cronix 4y ago
Another for your list...all DJI drone software requires sideloading on android.

amelius 4y ago

What is the problem with a model where the phone manufacturer gives the user power to control privileges given to the developers?

kaba0 4y ago

I never really understood this sentiment. How come Android phones are not riddled with bugs then? Or OSX? It is simply the job of the sandbox and OS security to prevent security/privacy violations.

urthor 4y ago

The issue isn't the walled garden. The issue is the monopolistic price gouging Apple charges for access to the walled garden. If you took the "policing for developer's short circuiting the 30% cut" out of Apple's approval process, everything in their ecosystem works out fairly nicely. The core issue is, simply, that Apple price gouges enormously.