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> Developers are about to get a surprise about what they're actually paying for. IMO a lot of developers are paying for Apple to have an unreasonable amount of

> Developers are about to get a surprise about what they're actually paying for. IMO a lot of developers are paying for Apple to have an unreasonable amount of control and the entire point of side loading or competing app stores is to get rid of that because we don't want to be paying Apple to act against our interests. I don't want to pay for Apple to "verify" my app. I want them to use the OS to enforce user granted permissions and that's it.

etchalon 4y ago
You're going to continue paying Apple to verify your app. Either you'll pay Apple directly, or the non-App Store will collect the 30% they have to send to Apple.
izolate 4y ago
As a developer, I understand this sentiment. As an iPhone user however, I don't want the power to shift to developers, because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. If you value openness, then I suggest you use and develop apps for Android.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. Like how Apple's interests can be at-odds with your own. If developers have control over your device, you're not empowered as a user. > A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords So, give it to them. Our interests are not mutually exclusive, you can make a device with both a walled garden and a developer mode. It's not rocket science, at least when you have 200 billion dollars in R&D cash sitting in your coffers.
  - cmdli 4y ago
    The trouble is that if large tech companies are given the opportunity, they will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not for the user. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with another tech company like Apple.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation, which the United States is pathologically opposed to. Foreign countries have to write their own consumer protection laws because US juggernaut tech companies are so ruthless. Shareholders fear nothing as much as regulatory backlash. You're at least right about one thing. Large tech companies will always exploit opportunities to limit the user, which is a privilege Apple has abused for too long. It's time for computing to be democratized again, even if we need to drag Apple though the mud to get there.
      - joshmanders 4y ago
        > That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation I don't know if you realize this, but OP and you are saying the same thing, they are just saying it slightly different. You: To stand up to large company bullying you need to regulate them through the government. OP: To stand up to large company bullying you, you need another large company who has the pockets and sway to bring change through congress because our government is bought and paid for by corporations.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        We're strongman-ing two sides of the same coin. They're arguing that the free market will solve this, whereas I'm arguing that proactive measures are required. Apple's business is designed so that it cannot be disrupted without forcing them to abide by a common set of rules. By leaving those rules undefined, we have clearly not encouraged innovation or disruption. Our only option is to define our consumer rights that we should have instated a long time ago.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kaba0 4y ago
        One of these is a fairy tail though. The free market doesn’t work like that, and that is a nice way to further empower companies.
- dmalik 4y ago
  Don't use 3rd party stores then if that's what you're worried about as a user.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. To state the obvious: if this were true, Apple wouldn't have to force the issue. Apple's app store would be a premium that they would charge users extra for. Getting your apps from 3rd-party stores would be the equivalent of the green bubble.
- alexiaa 4y ago
  the "use android" argument is getting really tiring. as someone who used to be an android user for years and still somewhat keeps up with the ecosystem, ios and most apps written for it (including major apps like twitter) are far more polished than whatever mess google is doing with android (and manufacturers make it even worse). i much prefer having the polished ios experience while being able to sideload and possibly even jailbreak my phone. and then there's imessage too, though we'll see what happens with that after the dma. and the argument about "giving developers power" simply doesn't hold any water. android openly allows sideloading with the google play store having very similar rules to the app store, and yet i can count the number of major apps that force or even offer a sideloaded version on one hand. the only ones that come to mind are fortnite (removed from google play) and telegram (on play store, but sideloaded version has faster updates and less censorship).
  - anomaly_ 4y ago
    That iOS polish is largely a byproduct of the walled garden approach. Users are incentivised to spend within the ecosystem due to the safety, security and support provided by Apple.
    - zamadatix 4y ago
      This argument would only make sense if the vast majority of Android spend was outside the Play ecosystem, which it is not. The second part "The safety, security and support provided by Apple." sounds more like a general Apple press release than something related to app polish. If most people actually choose iOS/iPhones primarily because of the App Store quality/protections/ecosystem then people will continue to choose the App Store regardless if sideloading is possible - after all we just said that's the whole reason most bought the phone in the first place. If on the other hand people are choosing iOS/iPhones for other reasons and you're worried nobody else will use the App Store anymore then I don't really buy "there aren't enough of us so it should be allowed to hold a captive market to support our use case" as a reasonable argument even though I see it quite often on HN.
  - cronix 4y ago
    Another for your list...all DJI drone software requires sideloading on android.
- amelius 4y ago
  What is the problem with a model where the phone manufacturer gives the user power to control privileges given to the developers?
- kaba0 4y ago
  I never really understood this sentiment. How come Android phones are not riddled with bugs then? Or OSX? It is simply the job of the sandbox and OS security to prevent security/privacy violations.
- urthor 4y ago
  The issue isn't the walled garden. The issue is the monopolistic price gouging Apple charges for access to the walled garden. If you took the "policing for developer's short circuiting the 30% cut" out of Apple's approval process, everything in their ecosystem works out fairly nicely. The core issue is, simply, that Apple price gouges enormously.
brundolf 4y ago
A problem is that some of their requirements, like the recent one for data collection disclosures, can't be enforced at a technical level
- kaba0 4y ago
  And apple won’t actually look too deeply at your code, that’s just marketing. So, neither is the current model a solution to that.
reaperducer 4y ago
I don't want to pay for Apple to "verify" my app. Add a user, I do. Developers, and the tech sphere in general, have proven themselves untrustworthy. This is the bed of greed the tech industry built. Now lay in it.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > Add a user, I do. For a user, Apple's app store will remain available. Your love for Coca-cola isn't ruined by the existence of Pepsi.
  - doctor_eval 4y ago
    It is, if the Pepsi is poisoned.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      Pepsi being poisoned will not affect your Coke.
      - doctor_eval 4y ago
        How are you going to enjoy that Coke while your system is down?
        yunwal 4y ago
        Why is my system down?
        doctor_eval 4y ago
        Look, it’s not my analogy, but I think you’re all being quite disingenuous. If I can use alternate stores then some popular apps - Fortnite is an obvious one - will go them exclusively, forcing people to set up and use a store which will probably do less auditing. Those apps will be able to steal more of my data, and some of them might (will) be malicious (“poison”). Once a malicious app destroys my phone, “the system is down”; I can’t use any apps regardless of where I bought them. Ransomware is a multi billion dollar business, and alternate stores will be motivated to cut corners. What could go wrong?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

etchalon 4y ago

You're going to continue paying Apple to verify your app. Either you'll pay Apple directly, or the non-App Store will collect the 30% they have to send to Apple.

izolate 4y ago

As a developer, I understand this sentiment. As an iPhone user however, I don't want the power to shift to developers, because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. If you value openness, then I suggest you use and develop apps for Android.

smoldesu 4y ago
> because I know developers have financial or other interests that are sometimes at odds with mine. Like how Apple's interests can be at-odds with your own. If developers have control over your device, you're not empowered as a user. > A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords So, give it to them. Our interests are not mutually exclusive, you can make a device with both a walled garden and a developer mode. It's not rocket science, at least when you have 200 billion dollars in R&D cash sitting in your coffers.
- cmdli 4y ago
  The trouble is that if large tech companies are given the opportunity, they will force users to use whatever is best for the company, not for the user. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with another tech company like Apple.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation, which the United States is pathologically opposed to. Foreign countries have to write their own consumer protection laws because US juggernaut tech companies are so ruthless. Shareholders fear nothing as much as regulatory backlash. You're at least right about one thing. Large tech companies will always exploit opportunities to limit the user, which is a privilege Apple has abused for too long. It's time for computing to be democratized again, even if we need to drag Apple though the mud to get there.
    - joshmanders 4y ago
      > That's bullshit. The only way to stand up to large tech companies is with regulation I don't know if you realize this, but OP and you are saying the same thing, they are just saying it slightly different. You: To stand up to large company bullying you need to regulate them through the government. OP: To stand up to large company bullying you, you need another large company who has the pockets and sway to bring change through congress because our government is bought and paid for by corporations.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        We're strongman-ing two sides of the same coin. They're arguing that the free market will solve this, whereas I'm arguing that proactive measures are required. Apple's business is designed so that it cannot be disrupted without forcing them to abide by a common set of rules. By leaving those rules undefined, we have clearly not encouraged innovation or disruption. Our only option is to define our consumer rights that we should have instated a long time ago.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kaba0 4y ago
        One of these is a fairy tail though. The free market doesn’t work like that, and that is a nice way to further empower companies.
dmalik 4y ago
Don't use 3rd party stores then if that's what you're worried about as a user.
pessimizer 4y ago
> A large portion of users want the protection that the walled garden affords. To state the obvious: if this were true, Apple wouldn't have to force the issue. Apple's app store would be a premium that they would charge users extra for. Getting your apps from 3rd-party stores would be the equivalent of the green bubble.
alexiaa 4y ago
the "use android" argument is getting really tiring. as someone who used to be an android user for years and still somewhat keeps up with the ecosystem, ios and most apps written for it (including major apps like twitter) are far more polished than whatever mess google is doing with android (and manufacturers make it even worse). i much prefer having the polished ios experience while being able to sideload and possibly even jailbreak my phone. and then there's imessage too, though we'll see what happens with that after the dma. and the argument about "giving developers power" simply doesn't hold any water. android openly allows sideloading with the google play store having very similar rules to the app store, and yet i can count the number of major apps that force or even offer a sideloaded version on one hand. the only ones that come to mind are fortnite (removed from google play) and telegram (on play store, but sideloaded version has faster updates and less censorship).
- anomaly_ 4y ago
  That iOS polish is largely a byproduct of the walled garden approach. Users are incentivised to spend within the ecosystem due to the safety, security and support provided by Apple.
  - zamadatix 4y ago
    This argument would only make sense if the vast majority of Android spend was outside the Play ecosystem, which it is not. The second part "The safety, security and support provided by Apple." sounds more like a general Apple press release than something related to app polish. If most people actually choose iOS/iPhones primarily because of the App Store quality/protections/ecosystem then people will continue to choose the App Store regardless if sideloading is possible - after all we just said that's the whole reason most bought the phone in the first place. If on the other hand people are choosing iOS/iPhones for other reasons and you're worried nobody else will use the App Store anymore then I don't really buy "there aren't enough of us so it should be allowed to hold a captive market to support our use case" as a reasonable argument even though I see it quite often on HN.
- cronix 4y ago
  Another for your list...all DJI drone software requires sideloading on android.
amelius 4y ago
What is the problem with a model where the phone manufacturer gives the user power to control privileges given to the developers?
kaba0 4y ago
I never really understood this sentiment. How come Android phones are not riddled with bugs then? Or OSX? It is simply the job of the sandbox and OS security to prevent security/privacy violations.
urthor 4y ago
The issue isn't the walled garden. The issue is the monopolistic price gouging Apple charges for access to the walled garden. If you took the "policing for developer's short circuiting the 30% cut" out of Apple's approval process, everything in their ecosystem works out fairly nicely. The core issue is, simply, that Apple price gouges enormously.

brundolf 4y ago

A problem is that some of their requirements, like the recent one for data collection disclosures, can't be enforced at a technical level

kaba0 4y ago
And apple won’t actually look too deeply at your code, that’s just marketing. So, neither is the current model a solution to that.

reaperducer 4y ago

I don't want to pay for Apple to "verify" my app. Add a user, I do. Developers, and the tech sphere in general, have proven themselves untrustworthy. This is the bed of greed the tech industry built. Now lay in it.

pessimizer 4y ago
> Add a user, I do. For a user, Apple's app store will remain available. Your love for Coca-cola isn't ruined by the existence of Pepsi.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  It is, if the Pepsi is poisoned.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Pepsi being poisoned will not affect your Coke.
    - doctor_eval 4y ago
      How are you going to enjoy that Coke while your system is down?
      - yunwal 4y ago
        Why is my system down?
        doctor_eval 4y ago
        Look, it’s not my analogy, but I think you’re all being quite disingenuous. If I can use alternate stores then some popular apps - Fortnite is an obvious one - will go them exclusively, forcing people to set up and use a store which will probably do less auditing. Those apps will be able to steal more of my data, and some of them might (will) be malicious (“poison”). Once a malicious app destroys my phone, “the system is down”; I can’t use any apps regardless of where I bought them. Ransomware is a multi billion dollar business, and alternate stores will be motivated to cut corners. What could go wrong?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]