7 ms·

Skeumorphism in automotive design

otabdeveloper4 4y ago
Putting a literal ton of rechargeable AA batteries into a car form factor just so you can move one person 20 kilometers is already the peak of insanity, so why not go the whole hog on craziness.
- wilg 4y ago
  Look, if you want to complain that cars exist, fine. But they aren't going away, so we need to make them more CO2-efficient. Even if you could get rid of most cars, that wouldn't be enough, and it wouldn't be able to happen quickly enough to avoid electrification.
  - otabdeveloper4 4y ago
    Lithium batteries certainly aren't more CO2 efficient. You're just outsourcing the exhaust somewhere else.
    - marssaxman 4y ago
      That could only be true if you lived somewhere with an old-fashioned grid that had no renewables. Using an electric car means C02 emissions per mile will continue to drop over time, as utilities add new solar and wind capacity.
      - Invictus0 4y ago
        And the emissions due to mining the lithium and cobalt? https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=Currently%2C%20most%20lithium%20is%20extracted,are%20emitted%20into%20the%20air https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufac....
        ravenstine 4y ago
        Whoa, I've never seen this `#:~:text=` thing (apparently called "scroll-to-text"), but it seems to work on every page I try it on. How come I've never heard of this browser feature? https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment Too bad it doesn't work on Firefox.
        burkaman 4y ago
        Why post this question? The article you linked answers it clearly.
        elihu 4y ago
        "Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air." Estimates seem to vary, but this is claiming that there's about 12 kg of lithium in a 70 kwh Tesla battery: https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-electric-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-e... So, that's 180 kg of CO2 for enough lithium to make a large car battery. If your first quote is actually referring to 15 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium carbonate mined, then there's 63 kg of that, the mining of which causes about 945 kg of CO2 emissions. Burning a gallon of gas emits about 9 kg of CO2. A car that gets 30 miles to the gallon will burn about 6700 gallons of gas over a 200,000 mile lifetime, resulting in 60,000 kg of CO2 emissions. There are other environmental issues with mining lithium and cobalt and other energy costs involved in making the batteries, but CO2 emissions from mining is way down there on the list of things to be worried about.
      - burkaman 4y ago
        It's not even true then, a coal-powered EV results in less emissions than a gas-powered car because the EV engine is so much more energy-efficient.
        marssaxman 4y ago
        Thanks! I had forgotten about that aspect.
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      A combined cycle power plant can be more than 60% efficient (LHV). The efficiency of an IC car can be in the low 20%s. And cars burn a fuel with a higher C:H ratio than natural gas.
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      That is until our primary electrical sources aren't releasing sequestered CO2 from the earth's crust, assuming we get there before destroying ourselves. A lot of people do own EVs thinking they're saving the earth while being ignorant to where their electricity is coming from. That doesn't mean EVs aren't going to help us get there in terms of clean energy.
    - burkaman 4y ago
      This isn't true and you know it. Producing an electric car releases slightly more emissions than an ICE car, but as soon as you start actually driving them the EV has a far smaller carbon impact, even if your electricity is 100% coal (which it almost certainly isn't). EVs are way more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Something like 80% of the energy from the gas you put in your car is wasted.
  - 543g43g43 4y ago
    >But they aren't going away Why? And if not, why can't we apply your argument to other things, eg, coal power plants? >Even if you could get rid of most cars, that wouldn't be enough, and it wouldn't be able to happen quickly enough to avoid electrification. Estimates for the lifetime CO2 savings of EVs vary from 40% to 70%. Assuming the be best case (70%), the CO2 impact would only be the same as "getting rid of most cars", which you say isn't enough.
    - aussieshibe 4y ago
      > Why? Comfort, convenience, speed, separation from other people, etc, etc. Changing the balance there requires significant investment in alternatives which doesn't seem to be forthcoming (at least in my country). We can't apply the same arguments to power plants because we don't have to go to / see / interact with the power plant in order to use electricity. It just appears at the wall socket like magic. Where it comes from is functionally irrelevant to the consumer.
      - 543g43g43 4y ago
        >Comfort, convenience, speed, Didn't realise these were valid arguments in the face of the Climate Catastrophe! >It just appears at the wall socket like magic. It's by far the most convenient and quickest to burn coal.
        pfdietz 4y ago
        How does the Climate Catastrophe justify getting rid of electric cars?
        543g43g43 4y ago
        Do you know how much CO2 an electric car produces over its lifetime?? We'll never hit our -80% reduction that we need!
        pfdietz 4y ago
- somrand0 4y ago
  what!? do you expect they should walk!? tyrant!!! lol (sorry for not being funny to you)
- everdrive 4y ago
  Frankly the limitations of electric cars might be a step in the direction of pushing out car culture. They’re more expensive, it’s not clear there are enough batteries for all the cars people want, and we may never solve the range problem. This might naturally push more people to public transit, albeit not all at once. The big issue in my mind is that public transit cannot be a solution _everywhere_, even if it could and should be greatly expanded.
  - coss 4y ago
    The hybrid plug-in models seem like a very good solution in terms of practicality and efficiency. Most can go 40 miles atm, which is a commute for most. Eventually cutting out fossil fuel work commutes for those who can’t work at home, or even the weekly run to wherever would eventually have a significant impact.
    - everdrive 4y ago
      I couldn’t agree more, and we might look at a plug-in hybrid for our next model.
  - Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
    E-bikes are a very good solution for trips not well served by public transit. And E-bikes do have manual transmissions, for those who like that sort of thing...
amelius 4y ago
Do they also make traditional motor sounds? What speakers are they using?
- teamonkey 4y ago
  Yes, the BMW i8 makes motor-like noises inside the cabin and has an external speaker that makes it sound like it has a jet engine. For real.
  - amelius 4y ago
    This must be funny when you have motor trouble.

Putting a literal ton of rechargeable AA batteries into a car form factor just so you can move one person 20 kilometers is already the peak of insanity, so why not go the whole hog on craziness.

wilg 4y ago
Look, if you want to complain that cars exist, fine. But they aren't going away, so we need to make them more CO2-efficient. Even if you could get rid of most cars, that wouldn't be enough, and it wouldn't be able to happen quickly enough to avoid electrification.
- otabdeveloper4 4y ago
  Lithium batteries certainly aren't more CO2 efficient. You're just outsourcing the exhaust somewhere else.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    That could only be true if you lived somewhere with an old-fashioned grid that had no renewables. Using an electric car means C02 emissions per mile will continue to drop over time, as utilities add new solar and wind capacity.
    - Invictus0 4y ago
      And the emissions due to mining the lithium and cobalt? https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=Currently%2C%20most%20lithium%20is%20extracted,are%20emitted%20into%20the%20air https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufac....
      - ravenstine 4y ago
        Whoa, I've never seen this `#:~:text=` thing (apparently called "scroll-to-text"), but it seems to work on every page I try it on. How come I've never heard of this browser feature? https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment Too bad it doesn't work on Firefox.
      - burkaman 4y ago
        Why post this question? The article you linked answers it clearly.
      - elihu 4y ago
        "Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air." Estimates seem to vary, but this is claiming that there's about 12 kg of lithium in a 70 kwh Tesla battery: https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-electric-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-e... So, that's 180 kg of CO2 for enough lithium to make a large car battery. If your first quote is actually referring to 15 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium carbonate mined, then there's 63 kg of that, the mining of which causes about 945 kg of CO2 emissions. Burning a gallon of gas emits about 9 kg of CO2. A car that gets 30 miles to the gallon will burn about 6700 gallons of gas over a 200,000 mile lifetime, resulting in 60,000 kg of CO2 emissions. There are other environmental issues with mining lithium and cobalt and other energy costs involved in making the batteries, but CO2 emissions from mining is way down there on the list of things to be worried about.
    - burkaman 4y ago
      It's not even true then, a coal-powered EV results in less emissions than a gas-powered car because the EV engine is so much more energy-efficient.
      - marssaxman 4y ago
        Thanks! I had forgotten about that aspect.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    A combined cycle power plant can be more than 60% efficient (LHV). The efficiency of an IC car can be in the low 20%s. And cars burn a fuel with a higher C:H ratio than natural gas.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    That is until our primary electrical sources aren't releasing sequestered CO2 from the earth's crust, assuming we get there before destroying ourselves. A lot of people do own EVs thinking they're saving the earth while being ignorant to where their electricity is coming from. That doesn't mean EVs aren't going to help us get there in terms of clean energy.
  - burkaman 4y ago
    This isn't true and you know it. Producing an electric car releases slightly more emissions than an ICE car, but as soon as you start actually driving them the EV has a far smaller carbon impact, even if your electricity is 100% coal (which it almost certainly isn't). EVs are way more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Something like 80% of the energy from the gas you put in your car is wasted.
- 543g43g43 4y ago
  >But they aren't going away Why? And if not, why can't we apply your argument to other things, eg, coal power plants? >Even if you could get rid of most cars, that wouldn't be enough, and it wouldn't be able to happen quickly enough to avoid electrification. Estimates for the lifetime CO2 savings of EVs vary from 40% to 70%. Assuming the be best case (70%), the CO2 impact would only be the same as "getting rid of most cars", which you say isn't enough.
  - aussieshibe 4y ago
    > Why? Comfort, convenience, speed, separation from other people, etc, etc. Changing the balance there requires significant investment in alternatives which doesn't seem to be forthcoming (at least in my country). We can't apply the same arguments to power plants because we don't have to go to / see / interact with the power plant in order to use electricity. It just appears at the wall socket like magic. Where it comes from is functionally irrelevant to the consumer.
    - 543g43g43 4y ago
      >Comfort, convenience, speed, Didn't realise these were valid arguments in the face of the Climate Catastrophe! >It just appears at the wall socket like magic. It's by far the most convenient and quickest to burn coal.
      - pfdietz 4y ago
        How does the Climate Catastrophe justify getting rid of electric cars?
        543g43g43 4y ago
        Do you know how much CO2 an electric car produces over its lifetime?? We'll never hit our -80% reduction that we need!
        pfdietz 4y ago
somrand0 4y ago
what!? do you expect they should walk!? tyrant!!! lol (sorry for not being funny to you)
everdrive 4y ago
Frankly the limitations of electric cars might be a step in the direction of pushing out car culture. They’re more expensive, it’s not clear there are enough batteries for all the cars people want, and we may never solve the range problem. This might naturally push more people to public transit, albeit not all at once. The big issue in my mind is that public transit cannot be a solution _everywhere_, even if it could and should be greatly expanded.
- coss 4y ago
  The hybrid plug-in models seem like a very good solution in terms of practicality and efficiency. Most can go 40 miles atm, which is a commute for most. Eventually cutting out fossil fuel work commutes for those who can’t work at home, or even the weekly run to wherever would eventually have a significant impact.
  - everdrive 4y ago
    I couldn’t agree more, and we might look at a plug-in hybrid for our next model.
- Drunk_Engineer 4y ago
  E-bikes are a very good solution for trips not well served by public transit. And E-bikes do have manual transmissions, for those who like that sort of thing...

amelius 4y ago

Do they also make traditional motor sounds? What speakers are they using?

teamonkey 4y ago
Yes, the BMW i8 makes motor-like noises inside the cabin and has an external speaker that makes it sound like it has a jet engine. For real.
- amelius 4y ago
  This must be funny when you have motor trouble.