8 ms·

Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. There are multiple suites of tests and processes that exist to try to e

Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. There are multiple suites of tests and processes that exist to try to ensure updates preserve user data and preferences but clearly something went wrong here. I’m just a developer, not a spokesperson, but I want to ensure that this is investigated if possible. If you file a bug in feedback hub under the Windows Update category it will collect the diagnostics required to fix this issue and prevent it from happening again. If you also provide a link to the filed feedback to me I’ll be happy to triage it personally as I frequently work with the teams that are responsible for update migration. Thanks!

vanous 4y ago
> Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. Thanks for your apology. I can imagine this could happen to some random unknown software team but not to the supposed leader of the desktop. I believe this is honest apology but I am not sure I can trust that the issue was a bug and not a feature.
- getcrunk 4y ago
  Same. Windows has done this in the past on updates
- binarycrusader 4y ago
  I can understand why you might be skeptical. However, I have learned over the years as a developer investigating update issues that the constraints placed upon the update process to ensure compatibility and resiliency are complex. The nature of the process used for most Feature Updates requires user data and preference migration and transfer. Notably, an entirely new installation of Windows is created and then existing user data and preferences are migrated or transferred as appropriate. There a variety of good reasons for this from a technical standpoint, but it has certain complexity and performance trade offs so is only used for certain types of updates. Other types of updates use an in-place upgrade methodology that doesn’t require user data and preference migration but has certain characteristics that make it currently less suitable for major feature updates. Thanks!
  - yason 4y ago
    However, I have learned over the years as a developer investigating update issues that the constraints placed upon the update process to ensure compatibility and resiliency are complex. I have learned over the years that constraints and complexity are often abused to force one's way. Not necessarily even consciously but if the collective train of thought in a company predominantly wants to prefer one outcome (i.e. market share, world domination) at the expense of another outcome (making users happy), then it tends to be that it's really easy to do things that result in the former and really complex and difficult to do things that result in the latter.
    - binarycrusader 4y ago
      I appreciate that when unexpected outcomes occur it's tempting to vent frustrations and say things in a way intended to influence the feelings of others to validate our own frustrations and feelings. However, as a former colleague of mine (Bryan Cantrill) frequently reminds everyone, empathy is a core engineering value: https://tritondatacenter.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun https://tritondatacenter.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun I completed the second decade of my software development career just a few years ago and it already seems like the third decade is speeding by. The first 17 years were in the *nix world and the last five have been as part of the Windows development team. There have been many times that I have incorrectly assumed why a particular outcome occurred only to find out later as I suddenly became responsible for that same scenario that they had good reasons for their choices, and it was either the best possible outcome at the time given constraints or very much an unintended one. In short, I have been extremely fortunate to have a number of mentors during my career that have helped me realize that perspective and empathy are key to understanding the complexities of software development. Through those experiences I have come to believe that software development is just as much a social discipline as a technical one, especially at scale. Thanks for your kind consideration.
      - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
      - 4y ago
- causality0 4y ago
  Yeah considering the absolute pissbaby tantrum Windows 10/11 throws when you go to change the default browser in the first place there's effectively no difference.
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    I just reinstalled Win10 at home. I used Edge -> Bing -> "chrome" and the top "result" is a blurb saying something like "Hey you don't need to use Chrome when you could use Edge!" I laughed out loud - actually. "Pass the butter Edge...."
the_gipsy 4y ago
Sibling comments indicate that the behavior is an intentional Dark Pattern. You can sleep tight and write it off to the PO.
PaulHoule 4y ago
It is a chronic problem with Windows that Microsoft tries to stuff products I don't want up my nose, up my fingernail and toenails, into my pores and into other unmentionable body orifices. This has gone back to at least Win 98. OneDrive, OneNote and many other Microsoft products have, I think, been much less successful they could have been because Microsoft worked really hard to kill them. I'd like to see a culture change at Microsoft where they stop doing this -- it's what I'd expect from that mobile OS that has a trashcan for a logo, not from the market leading desktop OS.
deafpolygon 4y ago
> Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. Allow me to be skeptical. This isn't the first time.
ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
> If you file a bug in feedback hub under the Windows Update category it will collect the diagnostics required to fix this issue and prevent it from happening again. One user filing a bug will absolutely not "prevent it from happening again".
matkoniecz 4y ago
Microsoft tried that explanation before. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21684329 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21684329 > It introduced a Browser Choice Screen pop-up in March 2010 as part of a settlement following an earlier EU competition investigation. > But the US company dropped the feature in a Windows 7 update in February 2011. > Microsoft said the omission had been the result of a "technical error". > Microsoft has been fined 561m euros ($731m; £484m) for failing to promote a range of web browsers, rather than just Internet Explorer, to users in the European Union (EU). I would believe this explanation if that this kind of "bug" would occasionally happen in the other ways, not benefiting Microsoft. Computer owned by my sister and unfortunately using Microsoft was hit by something similar - massive slowdowns, request to upgrade some cloud drive (leading to credit card form). Turns out that random local files were being deleted and moved into tragically slow cloud drive, and Windows in utterly misleading way claimed that space run out and demanded money for more space. Hard drive had over 1 800 000 GB of free space and Windows claimed that she should pay for more space. > If you also provide a link to the filed feedback to me I’ll be happy to triage it personally as I frequently work with the teams that are responsible for update migration. That is an intentional user-hostile behaviour, not an accident. Or at least of pattern of not really testing for bug that increase some metrics (cloud drive adoption needs to be higher? lets show misleading message that will result in it being enabled!)
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  >Hard drive had over 1 800 000 GB of free space 1800 Tb free? No wonder you were mad.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    Ops, sorry. Sadly I cannot edit it anymore, so this typo will remain. It was only 1 800 GB of free space
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
_Algernon_ 4y ago
No offence but it is difficult to take bug report invitations such as this seriously when long standing bugs aren't fixed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKKcd3sx2c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKKcd3sx2c). There is something deeply flawed with the culture at Microsoft / the Windows development team, and it has been that way the better part of a decade now. Stop milking your users for cents by turning Windows into malware.
steelframe 4y ago
> I frequently work with the teams that are responsible If this bug is rare and your personal insistence on prioritizing this fix makes any kind of difference, that's a bug in the organization and a misalignment of individual and business priorities. If a team can be randomized by an isolated instance without taking overall impact into consideration, that's a warning sign about the health of the business and the product.
- binarycrusader 4y ago
  Note again that I'm not a spokesperson, merely a developer, so this is my own personal opinion: In college one of the most transformative assignments I was given was actually a term paper where I was required to study what were then considered the three major sociological models for society (as I recall, so forgive me as it's been quite some time): structural-functional, social-conflict, and symbolic-interaction. In studying each of those sociological models, the one that resonated the most with me was that of symbolic-interaction. The core idea behind the symbolic-interaction model, as I recall, being that society is a result of the everyday interactions between people just like you and me. With that in mind, I continue to believe that there are often key individuals within any given group of people, whether that is a corporation, government, or otherwise, that can drive significant, positive change throughout that group and that can have a profound effect outside that group as well. I'd like to encourage folks to stop and consider for a moment that there are more than 1.4 billion monthly active devices running Windows 10 or 11. Obviously not all of those devices run any specific version of Windows, but that should provide some useful perspective. As a result, I'm always looking at the data, checking for patterns, and trying to identify both positive and unexpected trends. Cases like this are another opportunity for growth and to help others, and I'm happy to do so when I can.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
Unrelated, but something that staggered me: I have a pair of Bose QC35 headphones from 2016 or possibly 2017. They have bluetooth. One day, an update to Windows 10 prevented them from working with Windows. If I'm remembering right, they would still "connect", but they couldn't play anything other than the occasional glitchy click sound. This problem was never fixed. I verified that they continue to work with non-Windows devices, and they failed to work with other current Windows devices. I'm not sure how this could have happened, but it dramatically lowered my opinion of Windows. I still have the headphones; if you know how to generate a relevant log I'll look into it.
- josephg 4y ago
  There's every chance this is microsoft's fault, but bluetooth is also an ungodly mess of hacky junk that seems to get patched just enough to work with big hardware vendors, and then forgotten about. My theory is that the bluetooth hardware community doesn't have any rigorous testing suite for compliance with the spec. Instead implementors just test with a few other vendors' half broken implementations of the stack, and then they patch their own hardware just enough to make it work and release things. I bought a bluetooth keyboard and mouse a few weeks ago (both from different vendors). Neither device works over bluetooth on my linux workstation. I can get the keyboard to work by running some random commands I found on the internet, but it stops working when I sleep my computer. (A suddenly broken keyboard is the worst kind of surprise). The mouse has never worked over bluetooth. It just spits errors into my kernel's bluetooth stack. Both devices are just plugged in via USB cables now. I suspect linux's bluetooth stack is spec compliant, but its missing all the dirty workarounds for broken hardware that exist in macos and windows. Anyway, Microsoft shouldn't have broken your headphones. But Bose is probably just as much to blame.
coldtea 4y ago
>If you file a bug in feedback hub under the Windows Update category it will collect the diagnostics required to fix this issue and prevent it from happening again. As if it didn't happened AS intended, using a dark pattern by choice, and compatible with many other similar changes increasingly happening on Windows for the last 5 years or more?
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  I mean this could happen by accident right?!? "Whoops! I'm so sorry, Mrs. H. I guess this just isn't my week." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102266/quotes/qt0468298 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102266/quotes/qt0468298
kjs3 4y ago
It's a deceptive dark pattern not a bug and you know it. How incredibly condescending.
CWuestefeld 4y ago
Thanks for the concern, but... Why in the world would you develop at all a process for changing all my defaults over to MS's own products? That's a truckload of hubris, thinking that maybe I'd decide that every single one of the apps I normally use has suddenly been surpassed by Microsoft. I can't imagine why you'd even consider that anyone would want the change that was done to my system.

vanous 4y ago

> Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. Thanks for your apology. I can imagine this could happen to some random unknown software team but not to the supposed leader of the desktop. I believe this is honest apology but I am not sure I can trust that the issue was a bug and not a feature.

getcrunk 4y ago
Same. Windows has done this in the past on updates
binarycrusader 4y ago
I can understand why you might be skeptical. However, I have learned over the years as a developer investigating update issues that the constraints placed upon the update process to ensure compatibility and resiliency are complex. The nature of the process used for most Feature Updates requires user data and preference migration and transfer. Notably, an entirely new installation of Windows is created and then existing user data and preferences are migrated or transferred as appropriate. There a variety of good reasons for this from a technical standpoint, but it has certain complexity and performance trade offs so is only used for certain types of updates. Other types of updates use an in-place upgrade methodology that doesn’t require user data and preference migration but has certain characteristics that make it currently less suitable for major feature updates. Thanks!
- yason 4y ago
  However, I have learned over the years as a developer investigating update issues that the constraints placed upon the update process to ensure compatibility and resiliency are complex. I have learned over the years that constraints and complexity are often abused to force one's way. Not necessarily even consciously but if the collective train of thought in a company predominantly wants to prefer one outcome (i.e. market share, world domination) at the expense of another outcome (making users happy), then it tends to be that it's really easy to do things that result in the former and really complex and difficult to do things that result in the latter.
  - binarycrusader 4y ago
    I appreciate that when unexpected outcomes occur it's tempting to vent frustrations and say things in a way intended to influence the feelings of others to validate our own frustrations and feelings. However, as a former colleague of mine (Bryan Cantrill) frequently reminds everyone, empathy is a core engineering value: https://tritondatacenter.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun https://tritondatacenter.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun I completed the second decade of my software development career just a few years ago and it already seems like the third decade is speeding by. The first 17 years were in the *nix world and the last five have been as part of the Windows development team. There have been many times that I have incorrectly assumed why a particular outcome occurred only to find out later as I suddenly became responsible for that same scenario that they had good reasons for their choices, and it was either the best possible outcome at the time given constraints or very much an unintended one. In short, I have been extremely fortunate to have a number of mentors during my career that have helped me realize that perspective and empathy are key to understanding the complexities of software development. Through those experiences I have come to believe that software development is just as much a social discipline as a technical one, especially at scale. Thanks for your kind consideration.
    - _a_a_a_ 4y ago
    - 4y ago
causality0 4y ago
Yeah considering the absolute pissbaby tantrum Windows 10/11 throws when you go to change the default browser in the first place there's effectively no difference.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  I just reinstalled Win10 at home. I used Edge -> Bing -> "chrome" and the top "result" is a blurb saying something like "Hey you don't need to use Chrome when you could use Edge!" I laughed out loud - actually. "Pass the butter Edge...."

the_gipsy 4y ago

Sibling comments indicate that the behavior is an intentional Dark Pattern. You can sleep tight and write it off to the PO.

PaulHoule 4y ago

It is a chronic problem with Windows that Microsoft tries to stuff products I don't want up my nose, up my fingernail and toenails, into my pores and into other unmentionable body orifices. This has gone back to at least Win 98. OneDrive, OneNote and many other Microsoft products have, I think, been much less successful they could have been because Microsoft worked really hard to kill them. I'd like to see a culture change at Microsoft where they stop doing this -- it's what I'd expect from that mobile OS that has a trashcan for a logo, not from the market leading desktop OS.

deafpolygon 4y ago

> Hey, sorry that happened, it should have preserved all of the default applications, etc. Allow me to be skeptical. This isn't the first time.

ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago

> If you file a bug in feedback hub under the Windows Update category it will collect the diagnostics required to fix this issue and prevent it from happening again. One user filing a bug will absolutely not "prevent it from happening again".

matkoniecz 4y ago

Microsoft tried that explanation before. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21684329 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21684329 > It introduced a Browser Choice Screen pop-up in March 2010 as part of a settlement following an earlier EU competition investigation. > But the US company dropped the feature in a Windows 7 update in February 2011. > Microsoft said the omission had been the result of a "technical error". > Microsoft has been fined 561m euros ($731m; £484m) for failing to promote a range of web browsers, rather than just Internet Explorer, to users in the European Union (EU). I would believe this explanation if that this kind of "bug" would occasionally happen in the other ways, not benefiting Microsoft. Computer owned by my sister and unfortunately using Microsoft was hit by something similar - massive slowdowns, request to upgrade some cloud drive (leading to credit card form). Turns out that random local files were being deleted and moved into tragically slow cloud drive, and Windows in utterly misleading way claimed that space run out and demanded money for more space. Hard drive had over 1 800 000 GB of free space and Windows claimed that she should pay for more space. > If you also provide a link to the filed feedback to me I’ll be happy to triage it personally as I frequently work with the teams that are responsible for update migration. That is an intentional user-hostile behaviour, not an accident. Or at least of pattern of not really testing for bug that increase some metrics (cloud drive adoption needs to be higher? lets show misleading message that will result in it being enabled!)

brokenmachine 4y ago
>Hard drive had over 1 800 000 GB of free space 1800 Tb free? No wonder you were mad.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  Ops, sorry. Sadly I cannot edit it anymore, so this typo will remain. It was only 1 800 GB of free space

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

_Algernon_ 4y ago

No offence but it is difficult to take bug report invitations such as this seriously when long standing bugs aren't fixed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKKcd3sx2c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKKcd3sx2c). There is something deeply flawed with the culture at Microsoft / the Windows development team, and it has been that way the better part of a decade now. Stop milking your users for cents by turning Windows into malware.

steelframe 4y ago

> I frequently work with the teams that are responsible If this bug is rare and your personal insistence on prioritizing this fix makes any kind of difference, that's a bug in the organization and a misalignment of individual and business priorities. If a team can be randomized by an isolated instance without taking overall impact into consideration, that's a warning sign about the health of the business and the product.

binarycrusader 4y ago
Note again that I'm not a spokesperson, merely a developer, so this is my own personal opinion: In college one of the most transformative assignments I was given was actually a term paper where I was required to study what were then considered the three major sociological models for society (as I recall, so forgive me as it's been quite some time): structural-functional, social-conflict, and symbolic-interaction. In studying each of those sociological models, the one that resonated the most with me was that of symbolic-interaction. The core idea behind the symbolic-interaction model, as I recall, being that society is a result of the everyday interactions between people just like you and me. With that in mind, I continue to believe that there are often key individuals within any given group of people, whether that is a corporation, government, or otherwise, that can drive significant, positive change throughout that group and that can have a profound effect outside that group as well. I'd like to encourage folks to stop and consider for a moment that there are more than 1.4 billion monthly active devices running Windows 10 or 11. Obviously not all of those devices run any specific version of Windows, but that should provide some useful perspective. As a result, I'm always looking at the data, checking for patterns, and trying to identify both positive and unexpected trends. Cases like this are another opportunity for growth and to help others, and I'm happy to do so when I can.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

Unrelated, but something that staggered me: I have a pair of Bose QC35 headphones from 2016 or possibly 2017. They have bluetooth. One day, an update to Windows 10 prevented them from working with Windows. If I'm remembering right, they would still "connect", but they couldn't play anything other than the occasional glitchy click sound. This problem was never fixed. I verified that they continue to work with non-Windows devices, and they failed to work with other current Windows devices. I'm not sure how this could have happened, but it dramatically lowered my opinion of Windows. I still have the headphones; if you know how to generate a relevant log I'll look into it.

josephg 4y ago
There's every chance this is microsoft's fault, but bluetooth is also an ungodly mess of hacky junk that seems to get patched just enough to work with big hardware vendors, and then forgotten about. My theory is that the bluetooth hardware community doesn't have any rigorous testing suite for compliance with the spec. Instead implementors just test with a few other vendors' half broken implementations of the stack, and then they patch their own hardware just enough to make it work and release things. I bought a bluetooth keyboard and mouse a few weeks ago (both from different vendors). Neither device works over bluetooth on my linux workstation. I can get the keyboard to work by running some random commands I found on the internet, but it stops working when I sleep my computer. (A suddenly broken keyboard is the worst kind of surprise). The mouse has never worked over bluetooth. It just spits errors into my kernel's bluetooth stack. Both devices are just plugged in via USB cables now. I suspect linux's bluetooth stack is spec compliant, but its missing all the dirty workarounds for broken hardware that exist in macos and windows. Anyway, Microsoft shouldn't have broken your headphones. But Bose is probably just as much to blame.

coldtea 4y ago

>If you file a bug in feedback hub under the Windows Update category it will collect the diagnostics required to fix this issue and prevent it from happening again. As if it didn't happened AS intended, using a dark pattern by choice, and compatible with many other similar changes increasingly happening on Windows for the last 5 years or more?

_carbyau_ 4y ago
I mean this could happen by accident right?!? "Whoops! I'm so sorry, Mrs. H. I guess this just isn't my week." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102266/quotes/qt0468298 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102266/quotes/qt0468298

kjs3 4y ago

It's a deceptive dark pattern not a bug and you know it. How incredibly condescending.

CWuestefeld 4y ago

Thanks for the concern, but... Why in the world would you develop at all a process for changing all my defaults over to MS's own products? That's a truckload of hubris, thinking that maybe I'd decide that every single one of the apps I normally use has suddenly been surpassed by Microsoft. I can't imagine why you'd even consider that anyone would want the change that was done to my system.