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My unsolicited and uninformed opinion: Marriage is becoming a status symbol and I personally believe low birth rates are being driven by men more so than women.

My unsolicited and uninformed opinion: Marriage is becoming a status symbol and I personally believe low birth rates are being driven by men more so than women. If you’re a medium to high earning male in NYC, there are so many women to choose from that are pining for commitment (I believe biology plays a factor here). Most of my well to do friends are uninterested in marriage and are just churning through girls. I am happily married - largely driven by personal values religiously influenced moral principle. For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life and risk losing half of it plus a life of child support and alimony in a divorce. I don’t have an answer but I think the root cause may be different than increasing access to child care (which certainly helps) on the margin. Edit for another random anecdote: almost all my Jewish friends in their mid 30s who are well to do are married. Can’t think of one that isn’t. I believe there are cultural correlations that can be drawn.

symlinkk 4y ago
I make 6 figures and I get rejected by girls that work at Chick Fil A
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
- s5300 4y ago
  - symlinkk 4y ago
    Because I’m not attractive. None of the stuff you listed matters if you’re not attractive.
    - astrange 4y ago
      Everything they listed is what being attractive is. Every part of being attractive is under your control. Often other people are not good at telling you what you need to do to get there though.
      - symlinkk 4y ago
        I’m talking about physical attractiveness. It’s largely up to genetics. You can help a little by going to the gym or dressing nice but it’s not gonna turn a 3 into a 7.
        s5300 4y ago
        You’re hopeless with this mindset. I wish you the best in one day finding peace & perhaps the realization, that in the grand scheme of things, your opinion on this matter is ‘wrong’ in our modern society. I don’t have the slightest clue what you look like, but if you have an able body, I promise you I’d trade however you look for the functionality of your body. Seriously, I miss being able to participate in real life so much. I’d gladly become whatever you think a “2” is for a working body.
        readarcticgreen 4y ago
        Sometimes things don’t work out for you. I make a good tech income, literally own my home, I exercise and I’m probably fitter than most people, I have plenty of friends. At best I’ve been on 2-3 dates with the same woman. None have really shown interest in me. I’m not under any illusion, it’s me. I’m lucky I live in a country where sex work is legal. Otherwise I might still feel suicidal. I don’t think internet advice or trying to show people how they aren’t that bad of is helpful or even appropriate for HN. Just say “I’m sorry it hasn’t worked out for you”.
        astrange 4y ago
        Hmm, are there countries with legal sex work and good tech incomes? “Good” meaning SV good. Anyway, does your target market want a guy with a house and job? That’s what first gen immigrants want. (Or what second-gen’s parents want, which matters too.) The local middle class want that to be assumed and you actually appear to spend all your time on volunteering and hobbies.
    - s5300 4y ago
      I’m not attractive either, swear to god, & HN is the last place on the internet I’d be spending the very small & precious amount of energy I have in my days anymore to humblebrag, if I were going to. I’m also like, 5’6”, but with my posture, probably look 5’5”. I think if you were perhaps 5’2” as a male, I may slightly sympathize with you & the stigma surrounding male height, but I’ve still met more than a few dudes that short who do just fine. When you say you’re not attractive that really does nothing for anybody trying to give you advice. Do you have a hideously deformed face from a birth defect or accident? Okay, if so, that’s understandable. Are you morbidly obese? Okay, if so, that’s understandable - & highly likely to be a personal choice of yours that can be changed within a year. Otherwise, seriously, I just don’t get it. If you have a stereotypically ugly face, it really doesn’t matter if you otherwise have decent posture, the other stuff I listed, & some form of job. As cringey as it sounds, it’s otherwise just your mindset. & yeah, I’ve met plenty of people who don’t want to accept or acknowledge this is the reason, or even slightly want to change it. If you don’t want to help yourself, nobody in this world can help you. & fwiw & the last I’ll comment on it - the thing that gets the most people approaching me, the very last hobby of mine my body barely lets me do, is a style of skateboarding. So if you’re down so bad, maybe try that. Before that, it was practically… every hobby. This is why I truly genuinely state one interesting hobby. Doing hobby level work in a machine shop/maker space & after hours math meetups in college were probably the other two biggest attractors in my past life. Even hiking works, man. & you don’t even have to like it in the slightest… just pretend you do. @astrange - thanks for your comment, I saw as I was writing this out & it really hits home more than anything I can further ramble about. I do not know what goes through the minds of those who do not understand this very simple thing.
      - symlinkk 4y ago
        I’m over 6 ft tall but I am lanky and my face is ugly.
        Volrath89 4y ago
        Only very young women (teens and early twenties) care about the attractiveness of your face. After 23-25 I can confidently say it is the last thing they look at. Women of all ages look at height, though. So, if you are over 6', you can consider yourself extremely lucky, people are literally breaking their bone legs with a surgery to grow a few inches. About being lanky. I was also very skinny my whole life, I could eat anything including unhealthy fast food, sodas, etc and never gain weight. I thought that my "metabolism was too fast", that it was genetic, and that I could not change it. Until this year where I actually wanted a change and went from 130 to 160 lbs (58kg to 72kg). I'm 5'10 (177 cm). And for the first time of my life, I can wear something that actually fits and looks good on me.
  - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
    > unfortunately have the look/bare bones facial structure of what a stereotypical neo-nazi looks like This is why you pull girls. Women are not interested in average men at all. They either want the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire.
    - s5300 4y ago
      You’re making the presumption of an actual Aryan Nazi from Germany. I specifically said Neo-Nazi, which entails having the facial structure of a loser who thinks they’re “muhh master race” - I’m essentially a genetic mutt from the MidWest. I don’t have nice heroin chic cheek bones or a chiseled jaw line or anything. But discussing this is dumb & fruitless, I probably shouldn’t even be replying. Actually - I’ll give one last piece of advice >> They either want the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire. Do not, under any circumstances, align yourself with any woman/human who you’ve learned has a personality like this. It’s that simple. That’s a disgusting personality. Most women are not like this & I’ve typically immediately ghosted the few I’ve ended up meeting that are. It sounds like you want a girl who’s into that & just want to fantasize that you’re the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire - but you aren’t, & never will be. Not sure why anybody would want to live with a mindset like that.
      - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
        You're barking up the wrong tree. I'm in a happy relationship for many years.
        s5300 4y ago
    - bigDinosaur 4y ago
      I assume you're making a joke because this is obviously not true considering the definition of the word 'average' and so on.
  - 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
    > I’m a destitute & mostly disabled cripple that hasn’t been able to work in three years, has had no stable income for much longer, & unfortunately have the look/bare bones facial structure of what a stereotypical neo-nazi looks like (imo), yet I still have conventionally attractive women (and… men/others…) approach me, & have very little issue in finding romance/partners if I go out of my way to approach somebody. I think you might be underestimating yourself slightly. I'm something of an incel; not so much about sex, but incapable of emotionally bonding to people in general. And at least it seems most people are able to pick up rather quickly on the fact that there's something fundamentally wrong with me, and understandably distance themselves. A destitute cripple can still function as a person that other people can enjoy; an ability to empathize, or an enjoyment of company of others is something I think most people have, including you. Some capability of being able to understand, connect, and respond to others. So please don't put yourself down too much if you have at least that much ability. It seems as if you're still just a normal decent person at the end of the day.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> If you’re a medium to high earning male in NYC, there are so many women to choose from that are pining for commitment (I believe biology plays a factor here). NYC is well known for having more women than men.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  The parent comment of yours read like standard misandry. My eyes rolled as well.
Ztynovovk 4y ago
^The pseudo-intellectualism that seeps through HN comments makes my eyes roll. Here’s my take. Stuff is expensive. Marriage is a lot of responsibility. It’s not 1950 anymore. Shit changes.
- lefstathiou 4y ago
  Biology doesn’t.
  - trompetenaccoun 4y ago
    Marriage isn't biological, it's a social construct. Birth control and abortion are also not natural in that sense but human-made. Human evolution is biology btw, but evolution doesn't necessarily mean that humans have to reproduce like rabbits until everyone starves to death from overpopulation. There is a reason that the birth rate is generally lower the wealthier and better educated a population is.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- 21eleven 4y ago
  I disagree. We live in the most materially abundant country in the most materially abundant time. It is not a material problem. It is cultural. Society is feeling like a less good joyful place for children. "It takes a village to raise a child". There have never been fewer villages.
  - Ztynovovk 4y ago
    18k a year for a kid is expensive. Like a quarter of the median household income. Not to mention the time commitment. My friends lives were never the same after they had a kid. It’s a no for me dog. At least rn.
    - starik36 4y ago
      There are lots of things that are expensive. Sometimes because they are worth it.
throw6383878 4y ago
It is VERY difficult to find marriable woman who would be a good mother. Most NYC women who are "pining for commitment" really do not fit into that category.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  They go on to become mothers later.
zwkrt 4y ago
The philandering of rich young NYC men is not exactly an unbiased sample.
gernb 4y ago
> You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life... This is a ridiculously one side POV. I don't see marriage as giving up personal life. I see it as starting a personal live. There are so many things in my life I wanted to do "with someone" and by someone I mean someone I was in love with and who was in love with me. I see couples traveling the world, working abroad, supporting each other, having twice as many friends since both side bring in people, having twice as many activities to choose from ("should we go to party A or party B?") etc... On top of that playing with kids is awesome fun. Maybe your experience has been having a partner who's not a fit for you and so you wanted out?
- notRobot 4y ago
  You can be a long-term committed couple without being married on paper. You can do all the things you mention. What's more, you can also have kids without being married on paper! So I do understand people who don't see the point of getting the government involved and making it a thing that's very complicated to end if it doesn't work out.
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    While true, this is irrelevant to the topic of birth rates.
    - notRobot 4y ago
      So is the comment I was replying to.
  - astrange 4y ago
    That gets you all kind of problems with the legal system if one if you is in the hospital or dies.
- irjustin 4y ago
  > This is a ridiculously one side POV. I don't see marriage as giving up personal life. I see it as starting a personal live. There is some truth to this though. It's just you personally don't see it that way. A number of my single friends, 35+, love their life - exactly the way it is. They want a relationship but not bad enough to give up specific aspects that are called 'freedoms'. One of them being able to hook up and many others. I'm married with children and wouldn't want it any other way, but that's me. My personal take, yes please do not get married if you don't want to.
andreygrehov 4y ago
> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life and risk losing half of it plus a life of child support and alimony in a divorce. I lived in New York for many years and can confirm your experience. However, what interests me more is where all these ideas and decisions are coming from. Is it because it's trendy (Joe is not coming to the party tonight.. he is now, you know, married), which down the line means fear of losing status, or because people are free to choose what they want. I lean towards thinking it's the former (edit: I would rather say it's not the later). When the world is driven by TikTok and Instagram, I believe many people are measuring themselves up to the other people's standards rather than defining their own.
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
"Marriage - and any other contract - is a deliberate effort to constrain your future actions so that you can make long-term plans that heavily affect other people - your spouse, but also your future children - without them having to constantly worry about you running off to any Siren you hear." [0] No-fault divorce basically destroyed that institution for the working classes, with divorce rates sky-rocketing in a decade. Children living with both biological parents: Affluent families in 1960: 95% Working class families in 1960: 95% Affluent families in 2005: 85% Working class families in 2005: 30% [1] > Most of my well to do friends are uninterested in marriage and are just churning through girls. This is cruel and sad, but I'm not sure falling marriage rates are even the fundamental factor in the overall decline. The problem goes deeper. [0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/theres-a-time-for-everyone https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/theres-a-time-for-ever... [1] https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1178310819332984832 https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1178310819332984832
yojo 4y ago
> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life and risk losing half of it plus a life of child support and alimony in a divorce. I’ll bite: If you do it right, you get to spend every night with the person you love the most in the world. I’ve been with my wife for 20 years and we still stay up too late at least once a week because we don’t want to stop our conversation. It is the richest, most fulfilling relationship I can imagine. Beyond companionship, she is the ultimate ally. If I tell her I need her help, she is there for me 100%. No matter my ups or downs, successes or failures, I have someone I can trust for advice and lean on whenever I need it. Of course, this reliance goes both ways, but I feel great when I can help her back. My identity has stretched to include being part of this amazing team. Obviously, there’s a trade off, but for me it was minor. Dating always felt like the worst kind of interviewing to me. I’ll happily take 20 years of shared memories over a rotating cast of fresh faces.
- leto_ii 4y ago
  > I’ve been with my wife for 20 years and we still stay up too late at least once a week because we don’t want to stop our conversation. It is the richest, most fulfilling relationship I can imagine. > Beyond companionship, she is the ultimate ally. If I tell her I need her help, she is there for me 100%. Congratulations and may it never change for you. I do however have to say that that is not the case for most marriages/ long term monogamous relationships. If you could somehow set aside social pressure, shared financial burdens, guilt over messing up the kids etc. I think most existing marriages would break down. Few people actually share deep love, friendship and real, freely accepted commitment.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    > Few people actually share deep love, friendship and real, freely accepted commitment. I hope this isn’t true (I don’t know any statistics that support or disprove this), that’d be incredibly sad. Luckily, I’m happily married and childless.
weatherlite 4y ago
> I personally believe low birth rates are being driven by men more so than women Tinder says otherwise. Seems like women are rejecting droves of men who aren't in the top 10%-20% of good looks or height (this comes from Tinder's own data as far as I know). Another problem is there are now more female college graduates than men (in the U.S), and they prefer someone educated.
- Volrath89 4y ago
  People that are actually successful using Tinder are definitely NOT looking for marriage/kids. It's a hook-up app. You are right in your observation that women reject droves of men who aren't in the top 20%, not only in Tinder but in real life too. But OP is also right in his observation. The few males that are at the top have so many choices of women that staying with just one doesn't make too much rational sense. In the end, we have 80% of males not being able to catch the interest of women, and the remainder 20% that do get female attention are not interested in long term relationships. My conclusion: Low birth rates are being driven by the 20% of men as a result of the sexual preferences of 95% of women.
j7ake 4y ago
> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? Marriage helps to raise kids … isn’t that the answer ?
sakopov 4y ago
Yesterday, I spent a couple of hours talking to a friend of mine who's been in the dating world for several years now. He consistently tells me that he's out there looking for something serious, but in the interim it's become a science experiment and a way to get laid. My takeaway from this conversation is that dating is slowly turning in the least natural interaction between two people. It is constrained by a myriad of childish expectations and focuses almost entirely on personal attraction and not character or any other qualities. It's like a minefield and the more you walk on it the better you get at figuring out the expectations and getting laid, not by any means finding a partner. The saddest thing is that he's one of my many male friends who are perpetually single. Now, I'm a happily married male in my mid-30s and after having that discussion I really have no hope for millennials. We're up for some interesting times in several decades when the lonely, aging millennials will be needing care and there ain't anybody around to provide it.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
So it's driven by men yet women are predominantly the instigators of divorce which causes that fear? Don't think you can so easily pin one of the two as the drivers.

symlinkk 4y ago

I make 6 figures and I get rejected by girls that work at Chick Fil A

sieabahlpark 4y ago
s5300 4y ago
- symlinkk 4y ago
  Because I’m not attractive. None of the stuff you listed matters if you’re not attractive.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Everything they listed is what being attractive is. Every part of being attractive is under your control. Often other people are not good at telling you what you need to do to get there though.
    - symlinkk 4y ago
      I’m talking about physical attractiveness. It’s largely up to genetics. You can help a little by going to the gym or dressing nice but it’s not gonna turn a 3 into a 7.
      - s5300 4y ago
        You’re hopeless with this mindset. I wish you the best in one day finding peace & perhaps the realization, that in the grand scheme of things, your opinion on this matter is ‘wrong’ in our modern society. I don’t have the slightest clue what you look like, but if you have an able body, I promise you I’d trade however you look for the functionality of your body. Seriously, I miss being able to participate in real life so much. I’d gladly become whatever you think a “2” is for a working body.
        readarcticgreen 4y ago
        Sometimes things don’t work out for you. I make a good tech income, literally own my home, I exercise and I’m probably fitter than most people, I have plenty of friends. At best I’ve been on 2-3 dates with the same woman. None have really shown interest in me. I’m not under any illusion, it’s me. I’m lucky I live in a country where sex work is legal. Otherwise I might still feel suicidal. I don’t think internet advice or trying to show people how they aren’t that bad of is helpful or even appropriate for HN. Just say “I’m sorry it hasn’t worked out for you”.
        astrange 4y ago
        Hmm, are there countries with legal sex work and good tech incomes? “Good” meaning SV good. Anyway, does your target market want a guy with a house and job? That’s what first gen immigrants want. (Or what second-gen’s parents want, which matters too.) The local middle class want that to be assumed and you actually appear to spend all your time on volunteering and hobbies.
  - s5300 4y ago
    I’m not attractive either, swear to god, & HN is the last place on the internet I’d be spending the very small & precious amount of energy I have in my days anymore to humblebrag, if I were going to. I’m also like, 5’6”, but with my posture, probably look 5’5”. I think if you were perhaps 5’2” as a male, I may slightly sympathize with you & the stigma surrounding male height, but I’ve still met more than a few dudes that short who do just fine. When you say you’re not attractive that really does nothing for anybody trying to give you advice. Do you have a hideously deformed face from a birth defect or accident? Okay, if so, that’s understandable. Are you morbidly obese? Okay, if so, that’s understandable - & highly likely to be a personal choice of yours that can be changed within a year. Otherwise, seriously, I just don’t get it. If you have a stereotypically ugly face, it really doesn’t matter if you otherwise have decent posture, the other stuff I listed, & some form of job. As cringey as it sounds, it’s otherwise just your mindset. & yeah, I’ve met plenty of people who don’t want to accept or acknowledge this is the reason, or even slightly want to change it. If you don’t want to help yourself, nobody in this world can help you. & fwiw & the last I’ll comment on it - the thing that gets the most people approaching me, the very last hobby of mine my body barely lets me do, is a style of skateboarding. So if you’re down so bad, maybe try that. Before that, it was practically… every hobby. This is why I truly genuinely state one interesting hobby. Doing hobby level work in a machine shop/maker space & after hours math meetups in college were probably the other two biggest attractors in my past life. Even hiking works, man. & you don’t even have to like it in the slightest… just pretend you do. @astrange - thanks for your comment, I saw as I was writing this out & it really hits home more than anything I can further ramble about. I do not know what goes through the minds of those who do not understand this very simple thing.
    - symlinkk 4y ago
      I’m over 6 ft tall but I am lanky and my face is ugly.
      - Volrath89 4y ago
        Only very young women (teens and early twenties) care about the attractiveness of your face. After 23-25 I can confidently say it is the last thing they look at. Women of all ages look at height, though. So, if you are over 6', you can consider yourself extremely lucky, people are literally breaking their bone legs with a surgery to grow a few inches. About being lanky. I was also very skinny my whole life, I could eat anything including unhealthy fast food, sodas, etc and never gain weight. I thought that my "metabolism was too fast", that it was genetic, and that I could not change it. Until this year where I actually wanted a change and went from 130 to 160 lbs (58kg to 72kg). I'm 5'10 (177 cm). And for the first time of my life, I can wear something that actually fits and looks good on me.
- MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
  > unfortunately have the look/bare bones facial structure of what a stereotypical neo-nazi looks like This is why you pull girls. Women are not interested in average men at all. They either want the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire.
  - s5300 4y ago
    You’re making the presumption of an actual Aryan Nazi from Germany. I specifically said Neo-Nazi, which entails having the facial structure of a loser who thinks they’re “muhh master race” - I’m essentially a genetic mutt from the MidWest. I don’t have nice heroin chic cheek bones or a chiseled jaw line or anything. But discussing this is dumb & fruitless, I probably shouldn’t even be replying. Actually - I’ll give one last piece of advice >> They either want the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire. Do not, under any circumstances, align yourself with any woman/human who you’ve learned has a personality like this. It’s that simple. That’s a disgusting personality. Most women are not like this & I’ve typically immediately ghosted the few I’ve ended up meeting that are. It sounds like you want a girl who’s into that & just want to fantasize that you’re the tar-heroin injecting bass player, violent serial killer or the billionaire - but you aren’t, & never will be. Not sure why anybody would want to live with a mindset like that.
    - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
      You're barking up the wrong tree. I'm in a happy relationship for many years.
      - s5300 4y ago
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    I assume you're making a joke because this is obviously not true considering the definition of the word 'average' and so on.
- 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
  > I’m a destitute & mostly disabled cripple that hasn’t been able to work in three years, has had no stable income for much longer, & unfortunately have the look/bare bones facial structure of what a stereotypical neo-nazi looks like (imo), yet I still have conventionally attractive women (and… men/others…) approach me, & have very little issue in finding romance/partners if I go out of my way to approach somebody. I think you might be underestimating yourself slightly. I'm something of an incel; not so much about sex, but incapable of emotionally bonding to people in general. And at least it seems most people are able to pick up rather quickly on the fact that there's something fundamentally wrong with me, and understandably distance themselves. A destitute cripple can still function as a person that other people can enjoy; an ability to empathize, or an enjoyment of company of others is something I think most people have, including you. Some capability of being able to understand, connect, and respond to others. So please don't put yourself down too much if you have at least that much ability. It seems as if you're still just a normal decent person at the end of the day.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> If you’re a medium to high earning male in NYC, there are so many women to choose from that are pining for commitment (I believe biology plays a factor here). NYC is well known for having more women than men.

birdyrooster 4y ago
The parent comment of yours read like standard misandry. My eyes rolled as well.

Ztynovovk 4y ago

^The pseudo-intellectualism that seeps through HN comments makes my eyes roll. Here’s my take. Stuff is expensive. Marriage is a lot of responsibility. It’s not 1950 anymore. Shit changes.

lefstathiou 4y ago
Biology doesn’t.
- trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Marriage isn't biological, it's a social construct. Birth control and abortion are also not natural in that sense but human-made. Human evolution is biology btw, but evolution doesn't necessarily mean that humans have to reproduce like rabbits until everyone starves to death from overpopulation. There is a reason that the birth rate is generally lower the wealthier and better educated a population is.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
21eleven 4y ago
I disagree. We live in the most materially abundant country in the most materially abundant time. It is not a material problem. It is cultural. Society is feeling like a less good joyful place for children. "It takes a village to raise a child". There have never been fewer villages.
- Ztynovovk 4y ago
  18k a year for a kid is expensive. Like a quarter of the median household income. Not to mention the time commitment. My friends lives were never the same after they had a kid. It’s a no for me dog. At least rn.
  - starik36 4y ago
    There are lots of things that are expensive. Sometimes because they are worth it.

throw6383878 4y ago

It is VERY difficult to find marriable woman who would be a good mother. Most NYC women who are "pining for commitment" really do not fit into that category.

nashashmi 4y ago
They go on to become mothers later.

zwkrt 4y ago

The philandering of rich young NYC men is not exactly an unbiased sample.

gernb 4y ago

> You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life... This is a ridiculously one side POV. I don't see marriage as giving up personal life. I see it as starting a personal live. There are so many things in my life I wanted to do "with someone" and by someone I mean someone I was in love with and who was in love with me. I see couples traveling the world, working abroad, supporting each other, having twice as many friends since both side bring in people, having twice as many activities to choose from ("should we go to party A or party B?") etc... On top of that playing with kids is awesome fun. Maybe your experience has been having a partner who's not a fit for you and so you wanted out?

notRobot 4y ago
You can be a long-term committed couple without being married on paper. You can do all the things you mention. What's more, you can also have kids without being married on paper! So I do understand people who don't see the point of getting the government involved and making it a thing that's very complicated to end if it doesn't work out.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  While true, this is irrelevant to the topic of birth rates.
  - notRobot 4y ago
    So is the comment I was replying to.
- astrange 4y ago
  That gets you all kind of problems with the legal system if one if you is in the hospital or dies.
irjustin 4y ago
> This is a ridiculously one side POV. I don't see marriage as giving up personal life. I see it as starting a personal live. There is some truth to this though. It's just you personally don't see it that way. A number of my single friends, 35+, love their life - exactly the way it is. They want a relationship but not bad enough to give up specific aspects that are called 'freedoms'. One of them being able to hook up and many others. I'm married with children and wouldn't want it any other way, but that's me. My personal take, yes please do not get married if you don't want to.

andreygrehov 4y ago

> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life and risk losing half of it plus a life of child support and alimony in a divorce. I lived in New York for many years and can confirm your experience. However, what interests me more is where all these ideas and decisions are coming from. Is it because it's trendy (Joe is not coming to the party tonight.. he is now, you know, married), which down the line means fear of losing status, or because people are free to choose what they want. I lean towards thinking it's the former (edit: I would rather say it's not the later). When the world is driven by TikTok and Instagram, I believe many people are measuring themselves up to the other people's standards rather than defining their own.

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

"Marriage - and any other contract - is a deliberate effort to constrain your future actions so that you can make long-term plans that heavily affect other people - your spouse, but also your future children - without them having to constantly worry about you running off to any Siren you hear." [0] No-fault divorce basically destroyed that institution for the working classes, with divorce rates sky-rocketing in a decade. Children living with both biological parents: Affluent families in 1960: 95% Working class families in 1960: 95% Affluent families in 2005: 85% Working class families in 2005: 30% [1] > Most of my well to do friends are uninterested in marriage and are just churning through girls. This is cruel and sad, but I'm not sure falling marriage rates are even the fundamental factor in the overall decline. The problem goes deeper. [0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/theres-a-time-for-everyone https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/theres-a-time-for-ever... [1] https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1178310819332984832 https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1178310819332984832

yojo 4y ago

> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? You tie yourself down to monogamy, give up your personal life and risk losing half of it plus a life of child support and alimony in a divorce. I’ll bite: If you do it right, you get to spend every night with the person you love the most in the world. I’ve been with my wife for 20 years and we still stay up too late at least once a week because we don’t want to stop our conversation. It is the richest, most fulfilling relationship I can imagine. Beyond companionship, she is the ultimate ally. If I tell her I need her help, she is there for me 100%. No matter my ups or downs, successes or failures, I have someone I can trust for advice and lean on whenever I need it. Of course, this reliance goes both ways, but I feel great when I can help her back. My identity has stretched to include being part of this amazing team. Obviously, there’s a trade off, but for me it was minor. Dating always felt like the worst kind of interviewing to me. I’ll happily take 20 years of shared memories over a rotating cast of fresh faces.

leto_ii 4y ago
> I’ve been with my wife for 20 years and we still stay up too late at least once a week because we don’t want to stop our conversation. It is the richest, most fulfilling relationship I can imagine. > Beyond companionship, she is the ultimate ally. If I tell her I need her help, she is there for me 100%. Congratulations and may it never change for you. I do however have to say that that is not the case for most marriages/ long term monogamous relationships. If you could somehow set aside social pressure, shared financial burdens, guilt over messing up the kids etc. I think most existing marriages would break down. Few people actually share deep love, friendship and real, freely accepted commitment.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  > Few people actually share deep love, friendship and real, freely accepted commitment. I hope this isn’t true (I don’t know any statistics that support or disprove this), that’d be incredibly sad. Luckily, I’m happily married and childless.

weatherlite 4y ago

> I personally believe low birth rates are being driven by men more so than women Tinder says otherwise. Seems like women are rejecting droves of men who aren't in the top 10%-20% of good looks or height (this comes from Tinder's own data as far as I know). Another problem is there are now more female college graduates than men (in the U.S), and they prefer someone educated.

Volrath89 4y ago
People that are actually successful using Tinder are definitely NOT looking for marriage/kids. It's a hook-up app. You are right in your observation that women reject droves of men who aren't in the top 20%, not only in Tinder but in real life too. But OP is also right in his observation. The few males that are at the top have so many choices of women that staying with just one doesn't make too much rational sense. In the end, we have 80% of males not being able to catch the interest of women, and the remainder 20% that do get female attention are not interested in long term relationships. My conclusion: Low birth rates are being driven by the 20% of men as a result of the sexual preferences of 95% of women.

j7ake 4y ago

> For most my friends, the question they pose is what is the benefit of marriage? Marriage helps to raise kids … isn’t that the answer ?

sakopov 4y ago

Yesterday, I spent a couple of hours talking to a friend of mine who's been in the dating world for several years now. He consistently tells me that he's out there looking for something serious, but in the interim it's become a science experiment and a way to get laid. My takeaway from this conversation is that dating is slowly turning in the least natural interaction between two people. It is constrained by a myriad of childish expectations and focuses almost entirely on personal attraction and not character or any other qualities. It's like a minefield and the more you walk on it the better you get at figuring out the expectations and getting laid, not by any means finding a partner. The saddest thing is that he's one of my many male friends who are perpetually single. Now, I'm a happily married male in my mid-30s and after having that discussion I really have no hope for millennials. We're up for some interesting times in several decades when the lonely, aging millennials will be needing care and there ain't anybody around to provide it.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

So it's driven by men yet women are predominantly the instigators of divorce which causes that fear? Don't think you can so easily pin one of the two as the drivers.