5 ms·

^ this. I was scammed about EUR 1500 some 7 years ago. It didn’t seem a scam: the price for an item was low but not too low, the identity of the seller I could

^ this. I was scammed about EUR 1500 some 7 years ago. It didn’t seem a scam: the price for an item was low but not too low, the identity of the seller I could verify. But the item ultimately didn’t arrive, and I didn’t know that for italian law it’s considered an “unfulfilled contract” rather than fraud, and requires a civil rather than a criminal case, which would turn out far too costly. But the point is: I didn’t recognize some warnings because I just had my first kid and I was stressed, overworked and sleep deprived. Shit happens.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
That's not nearly the same thing as what the other poster is talking about. I once had something similar happen when I purchased Prince of Qin off Ebay (10-15 years ago I think?). Package never arrived. That is in a wholly different class than these scams where they're asking you to cash a check and wire the money back, nigerian prince, etc. What the other poster ISN'T considering is that there are still large segments of the population that are old enough that they're just not internet savvy. It's just the nature of life. But their point stands as is, it's not reasonable for younger generations to be falling for these scams.
unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
> or italian law it’s considered an “unfulfilled contract” rather than fraud That's crazy, but the same binary outcomes also exist in US law. Some states make very clear (to civil litigants' chagrin) that closing a sale with no intent to perform is a fraud; others haven't made that so clear; and, always, it's how you explain your situation to the gatekeeper that determines whether you might qualify for one side or the other.
avianlyric 4y ago
As a general rule convicting someone of fraud requires you somehow prove their state of mind. A person must set out to deliberately defraud someone for it to be considered fraud. Of course proving a persons state of mind is extremely difficult. As a consequence it’s unlikely that police or prosecutors are going to take an interest in fraud that only involves small sums of money (less than a few million $). However proving that a contract is unfulfilled is pretty trivial, and generally cut-and-dry. But failure to fulfil a contract obviously isn’t a criminal offence, so your only option is to file a civil suite. Thankfully most countries have small claims courts that cheap and very accessible, but with limits on how much you can claim. Just because the amount of money you’ve lost is above the small claims court amount, doesn’t prevent you from suing of an amount within the purview of a small claims court. Beyond that, use a credit card. If credit card networks have provided any value in this world, it’s in the form of generally consumer friendly chargeback processes. It’s in there interest to make sure that people feel safe using their credit cards to buy stuff, more purchases means more transaction fees for them.
IshKebab 4y ago
That's what small claims court is for. Hopefully it doesn't happen to you again but if it does you can take them to small claims court. You don't need to pay a lawyer. It costs far less than €1500. That's what it's called in the UK anyway. I assume Italy has something equivalent.
- ghaff 4y ago
  All that does though is maybe get you a judgment. It doesn't put the money in your hands.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    I've never done it but if they don't pay up you can apparently ask the court to send bailiffs: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judgment https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judg...
wpietri 4y ago
As an aside, this is one of the users I think everybody should design for: > I just had my first kid and I was stressed I often think back to when my nephew was tiny and imagine my brother trying to work a particular interface with one hand while holding a crying baby in the other.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

That's not nearly the same thing as what the other poster is talking about. I once had something similar happen when I purchased Prince of Qin off Ebay (10-15 years ago I think?). Package never arrived. That is in a wholly different class than these scams where they're asking you to cash a check and wire the money back, nigerian prince, etc. What the other poster ISN'T considering is that there are still large segments of the population that are old enough that they're just not internet savvy. It's just the nature of life. But their point stands as is, it's not reasonable for younger generations to be falling for these scams.

unyttigfjelltol 4y ago

> or italian law it’s considered an “unfulfilled contract” rather than fraud That's crazy, but the same binary outcomes also exist in US law. Some states make very clear (to civil litigants' chagrin) that closing a sale with no intent to perform is a fraud; others haven't made that so clear; and, always, it's how you explain your situation to the gatekeeper that determines whether you might qualify for one side or the other.

avianlyric 4y ago

As a general rule convicting someone of fraud requires you somehow prove their state of mind. A person must set out to deliberately defraud someone for it to be considered fraud. Of course proving a persons state of mind is extremely difficult. As a consequence it’s unlikely that police or prosecutors are going to take an interest in fraud that only involves small sums of money (less than a few million $). However proving that a contract is unfulfilled is pretty trivial, and generally cut-and-dry. But failure to fulfil a contract obviously isn’t a criminal offence, so your only option is to file a civil suite. Thankfully most countries have small claims courts that cheap and very accessible, but with limits on how much you can claim. Just because the amount of money you’ve lost is above the small claims court amount, doesn’t prevent you from suing of an amount within the purview of a small claims court. Beyond that, use a credit card. If credit card networks have provided any value in this world, it’s in the form of generally consumer friendly chargeback processes. It’s in there interest to make sure that people feel safe using their credit cards to buy stuff, more purchases means more transaction fees for them.

IshKebab 4y ago

That's what small claims court is for. Hopefully it doesn't happen to you again but if it does you can take them to small claims court. You don't need to pay a lawyer. It costs far less than €1500. That's what it's called in the UK anyway. I assume Italy has something equivalent.

ghaff 4y ago
All that does though is maybe get you a judgment. It doesn't put the money in your hands.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  I've never done it but if they don't pay up you can apparently ask the court to send bailiffs: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judgment https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/enforce-a-judg...

wpietri 4y ago

As an aside, this is one of the users I think everybody should design for: > I just had my first kid and I was stressed I often think back to when my nephew was tiny and imagine my brother trying to work a particular interface with one hand while holding a crying baby in the other.