11 ms·

I am not a trucker, so I can't comment on the veracity of TFA's claims. But this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were desig

by a4isms 4y ago

I am not a trucker, so I can't comment on the veracity of TFA's claims. But this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt. A lot of the things that matter aren't necessarily obvious to the designer or engineer who knows little about the nuts and bolts of every field. The usual remedy is to either follow a design process that incorporates user viewpoints, or to hire people with direct experience in the field. Take the "wiping the mirrors" complaint. One design makes it easy to lean out the window and wipe the mirror by hand. Another design might make the mirrors retractible. If I read a complain that retracting the mirrors was unnecessary complexity, I would think "Hmm, maybe, but then again it's a tradeoff because the narrow cab is more aero and increases range." I'd have a feeling that the designers knew this was an important use case, but this person complaining doesn't like their solution. But it worries me that a number of use cases that seem quite obviously common even to a layperson... Are neglected outright. I don't get the impression that Tesla knew about all this and decided not to do anything about them, I get the impression that this is a company who thinks "design" is all about styling, and not about usability. Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs.

blagie 4y ago
My general design process: 1. Design it myself. Get my ideas on paper before I'm biased. 2. Review designs. See how other people did it. 3. Talk to experts. 4. Integrate ideas and build it. Most of my clever ideas turn out to be dumb at step #2 or #3, but a few pan out, and those have been important. In many cases, there is some kind of fusion too. It seems someone missed steps 2-4 here.
- V__ 4y ago
  That sounds intriguing. Can you talk about some success (and failures)?
  - blagie 4y ago
    No, since that would tie back to my identity. I use throw-away accounts online. When I upgrade my web browser, this account will disappear and a new one will appear. I have the level of fame where you almost certainly wouldn't recognize my name, but where most people (not just on HN) have heard of one project I created from scratch (to give an analogy, very few people would recognize the inventor of the Nerf gun, the Super Soaker, the touch screen, a popular TV show, or the iPod, but if you said "I'm the inventor of the ____," they'd know who you were). It takes about 30 seconds with Google my successes and failures to figure out who I am. I attribute that success to: 1. Being willing and able to talk to a large and diverse set of experts (and not just recognized ones; in the above example, an expert might be a trucker, rather than just a truck designer, and you want to talk to both, not to mention people who hire truckers, people who ship things, etc.). Finding something like an "expert trucker" is probably harder than you'd imagine; "expert trucker" isn't the same as "random trucker." 2. Being able to swallow my ego, ignore my ideas, and follow their advice. Most of my success was based on gluing together ideas that other people / products had in innovative combinations, and in being somehow effective at scouring the universe for good ideas.
- nazka 4y ago
  Sometimes I actually do a slightly similar one. I do 3. 2. 1. 4. I also sometimes skip point 2. to avoid any bias and follow their own pitfalls instead using my own creativity from the raw material of point 3. But your workflow is great. :) It's the same than Apple or Ford when they created the first cars. Like their famous quote: if Ford asked first to experts what the next transportation will be they would have said faster horses. It had to start from a visionary first and not experts.
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I'm not a designer but one principle I've adopted in most things I purchase is to minimize complexity. My goal is always to optimize for "least willpower consumed". Because I know that if its not easy to do, I'll just skip it after a long day. If I was making something for professionals who might use the tool for long, tiring hours, I'd probably want to give them the least bit of complexity possible. At the end of an 8 hour shift, how many truckers will have the energy (or rather, spare willpower) to press a button, wait for the mirrors to retract, clean it, and press the button to get it back into its original position? Compare that to the much simpler single-step current process (grab cloth, clean mirror). The fewer clicks, the fewer steps, the fewer movements something takes, usually, the better.
_ea1k 4y ago
Considering that the original lead for the project was also the lead for the Cascadia, I don't think its fair to say that they lacked people with industry knowledge.
neither_color 4y ago
If anything it reminds me of all the arguments on slashdot when iPhone was announced that it would never take off because full touchscreen phones without a physical keyboard were a gimmick.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Fat fingering an instagram post rarely causes an accident which can delete a family from existence in half a second. The argument against touchscreens in vehicles is sound, not just contrarianism.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Is the difference here is there is already long running expectations? The iPhone was charting a brand new course across undiscovered seas, how trucks drivers interact with their vehicle is an experience with literally generations of data.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    That's how it looks with the benefit of hindsight. In 2007, there were plenty of people who thought the iPhone wasn't charting a brand new course across undiscovered seas. They thought it was an expensive, overly engineered toy. They thought the smartphone market of Blackberry and Windows Mobile devices was already mature.
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Keyboards go back a long way, and the iPhone was widely panned as "not a professional device" because "how could you type email on it?" After all, we all had experience with just how bad on-screen keyboards were. It was so bleeding obvious that Steve was an idiot. But then people actually used iPhones. While not as good as a physical keyboard, Apple's soft keyboard was vastly better than anyone anticipated. So good, in fact, that everyone basically forgot about physical keyboards and started typing their email on iPhones. A big part of it was two things: 1. Apple put an actually-good LCD in the iPhone (Apple's LCDs get brighter and dimmer than the competition) 2. Apple used a capacitive touchscreen (that didn't suck). I think the key thing is "is Tesla going to install good or shitty screens?" My guess is good screens--so I kind of laughed when the trucker complained about Mercedes touchscreens being too bright at night. Just like Apple's good screen enabled things you couldn't have before in a phone, I think Tesla's will too. They can show blind spot cameras, for example. That may mitigate most or all of the impact of the center driver position on visibility. The same cameras can potentially show a better view than the mirrors (who cares if they're hard to clean when you only have them installed for legal compliance). So the giant screens enable Tesla to offer a Semi with vastly better aero than the competition.
imperialdrive 4y ago
Heck, even most of what Microsoft designs/builds/releases is after-the-fact mind boggling un-user-friendly, and they are mostly working on their own and hugely deployed products with many years of real world experience already under their belt. And they still screw it up regularly! I don't readily know what one would call this phenomenon. Is it as serious as technical cancer? Dementia? If feels like a disease that is spreading to so many companies rather far, and fast. Perhaps the good news is that it should result in more competition, I think. Tall growth getting hit with beetles, ideally leaving behind fertile ground for something else?
reaperducer 4y ago
this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt. I've had similar experience with silly old web development. I spent a week sitting down with actual users of the web site that I was so proud of and watched them use it. Oh, man did that hurt. All the "telemetry" in the world will never prepare you for actually watching real people at work and talking to them. It completely changed the way I build web sites. The Tesla designers should spend more time in truck cabs, shadowing actual truckers. Based on this Twitter rant, it should be illuminating.
Eji1700 4y ago
To me, this point alone continues to highlight that musk is just focusing on looks instead of function- > Tablets. I drove a modern Mercedes truck with tablets and it's pin in the arse. Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it. (10) This is a KNOWN issue. There's very very little upside to any sort of touchscreen in a moving vehicle. And while in normal cars they move units because features over functionality is acceptable, trucks aren't status symbols first. They do, at the end of the day, have to do the job they're designed for efficiently, and things like this are clearly just "trendy" not practical.
- dr-detroit 4y ago
- powvans 4y ago
  Not just efficiently, safely.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Cars kill 1,500,000 people per year (= a 787 full of passangers every couple hours). What's the big deal about safety? /s
    - Alupis 4y ago
      In the US that number is usually below 30,000, and majority of that 30,000 is alcohol related.
      - hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
        >majority of that 30,000 is alcohol related. What's your source for this? Most sources I'm finding say alcohol-impaired driving is involved in about 30% of US traffic deaths.
        4y ago
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Devil’s advocate: the buyer and operator of the trucks may not care what the driver thinks. Most of these complaints don’t seem to hit at the truck’s profitability for its target market.
- kelnos 4y ago
  That's a weird position to advocate from. I mean, it's the traditional soul-sucking capitalist position: who cares about the user as long as it makes money? Gross.
  - SgtBastard 4y ago
    Unless the inconveniences inconvenience the decision maker, it wont influence the decision. This is human nature and agnostic of political or economic model that human exists within.
    - masswerk 4y ago
      Well, empathy, social issues, etc, may or may not cause an inconvenience…
  - kube-system 4y ago
    > That's a weird position to advocate from. So weird -- it's the devil!
    - a1369209993 4y ago
      Comparing corporate decision makers to devils is unfair and bigoted against devils.
- PLenz 4y ago
  About half of U.S. truckers own thier own rigs, europe has fewer owner-operators. Do you want to start by throwing out half the domestic market?
Spooky23 4y ago
Why is this surprising. After all it’s the company that eliminated steering wheels and door handles.
UI_at_80x24 4y ago
I've driven truck for 4+ years. Side mirrors: I have _never_ cleaned the mirrors by hand. That happens when I'm refueling with a squeegee on a long pole that they have at truck-stops. I will tell you that those mirrors will vibrate like hell and be difficult to see clearly out of. That far away from the chassis and with only one point of contact will make it vibrate a lot. Gatehouses: that is a very valid point, but most guardhouses (I mostly just have experience with Ford/Chrysler/GM) make you get out of the truck and go open up the trailer. You don't even roll-down the window to talk to them. Weigh-Scales (aka Chicken-Coops) where Highway weight inspection happens: Most just use a speaker on a pole at window height, but other places (like USA/CAN border crossing) you have to pass paperwork back & forth to agent, so this would be difficult. Entry/Egress: these are valid points but the need to enter/exit from the passenger side has only happened to me once. My biggest use of the passenger seat: That's where I kept my cooler for food/beverages. And that brings me to my list of observations that make this tractor seem like a non-starter (from things i noticed watching the '10 hour drive' video): (1) The monitor on the right-side of the driver. Some of the time it was a map/GPS, but most of the time it was displaying text that the driver leaned over/turned his head to read. This might have been dispatch notes, or vehicle diagnostics or something else. HELL NO, not even once would I ever drive something that required that much attention away from the road. (2) Food/Beverage options. Most drivers that I ever saw used a LARGE 24oz-36oz insulated mugs for coffee. A lot would pour an entire pot of coffee into their mug! So most trucks had 'over-sized' cup holders. The 'nicer' trucks I drove also had shelves with guard rails (it always reminded me of boat-storage) in areas that I could put food that I could eat while driving. I didn't see that same kind of space. The less-nice trucks would force me to use the passenger seat. This truck did have lots of area, but there was nothing to prevent things from sliding around. (3) Load/Log paperwork: Usually kept in a clip-board (mandated by law if carrying hazmat material to be stored in drivers-side door pocket). Once again door placement and lack of shelves play an issue here. I often kept mine on the passenger seat. This material is rarely touched while driving, but there is a considerable amount of paperwork that needs to be done each time the truck stops. Related: Notepads. About half the companies that I worked for required that I log the vehicle mileage (and time) when crossing state lines. There might be adequate space for this. Notes were needed to be written down quite frequently. (3) Range to refuel ratio. I drove a 600 mile radius centered around Detroit. I would goto Quebec, Missouri, Tennessee, and all points in between. Each time I needed to 'fill' the fuel tanks would take ~30 minutes. That 30-minutes would give me ~1800 miles of range (VERY rough estimate, I never got close to empty). I would often get fuel at either designated locations (like at the company lot)or when I was OTR I would do it before I stopped for the night (as needed). Even if Tesla built out a super-charger like network for the trucks I can't imagine having enough time to make 3x more stops, with each stop taking MUCH longer.
bsjaux628 4y ago
> Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs He would have hidden the ignition keyhole below the steering wheel because of the ugly aesthetics
- kennywinker 4y ago
  It's ok, it lights up for 30s after the door opens. Oh you need to find it but were in the cab for longer than 30s? Just open and close the door again, dum-dum!
Brian_K_White 4y ago
And others emulating them. I would like a Rivian for several reasons, but I can not accept the cab, especially the suv. It's the stupidest least functional least convenient least utility thing imaginable for a utility vehicle. It's a rolling Apple "one button" joke.
hedgehog 4y ago
Your critique makes sense, it reminds me of an electric truck startup called Edison that was started by a former truck driver: https://www.edisonmotors.ca https://www.edisonmotors.ca Basically the exact opposite approach, they started by bolting together mostly commodity parts. It's not pretty in a consumer product sense but for industrial users I get the sense that sleek is not good if it comes at any cost to serviceability, durability, parts commonality, etc. I don't know if that specific company will go anywhere but I like the approach.
reissbaker 4y ago
IDK, when I see threads like this hit high rankings on HN, I don't even have to click through to know that it's a rant — it wouldn't make the front page if it was like "Sweet, this looks good." Parts of the thread are just nonsensical; for example, I've seen many other threads and business analysts concerned about whether an electric semi-truck is even viable at all. Meanwhile, this thread explains that "All major truck manufacturers offer [sic] electric trucks for years now." Wow, maybe everyone else is wrong and doesn't know anything about truck sales? So I did the bare minimum of research, and... The Mercedes truck he claims has been offered "for years now" is in prototype phase and has never been released; the Volvo class 8 semi was only released in October of this year and has less than half the range of the Tesla; the Scania was also only launched this year and similarly has less than half the range... He even cites "Nikola" as a manufacturer that you can buy a truck from. Nikola! The infamous company that was convicted of securities fraud for faking their electric truck last year! Apparently as of this year they finally managed to deliver a whopping 48 trucks, all of which were promptly recalled for safety issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation Meanwhile, the snow considerations from the dreaded "angled windscreen." In the thread, the author posts a few pictures of trucks with completely vertical faces. Is that representative of semi trucks? Well, let's go ahead and look at a picture of the Volvo electric class 8 semi that the author was touting... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/18/first-drive-the-volvo-vnr-electric-class-8-semi-truck/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/18/first-drive-the-volvo-v... Uh-oh. It's got way more horizontal faces that the Tesla! And look at those giant mirrors placed 5+ feet in front of the cab... How will the driver wipe them without leaving? Whoops. Or, maybe that's not actually the death sentence for the truck that the author claims? And then there's the "place to put a mattress." But — the Tesla Semi is what's known in America as a "day cab." Day cabs do not have places for mattresses, and it's generally illegal to sleep in one: https://ratings.freightwaves.com/day-cab-vs-sleeper-cab/ https://ratings.freightwaves.com/day-cab-vs-sleeper-cab/. If you're on a route that requires sleeping, you need a sleeper cab. And yup — the Tesla Semi isn't one. But neither is any other day cab. Rants like these are usually pretty boring TBH: if the product is actually terrible, no one will buy it (and thus the author won't be angry about it). The anger betrays their certainty that the product is actually more attractive than they'd hoped, and than they're claiming.
- 4y ago

by a4isms 4y ago

blagie 4y ago

My general design process: 1. Design it myself. Get my ideas on paper before I'm biased. 2. Review designs. See how other people did it. 3. Talk to experts. 4. Integrate ideas and build it. Most of my clever ideas turn out to be dumb at step #2 or #3, but a few pan out, and those have been important. In many cases, there is some kind of fusion too. It seems someone missed steps 2-4 here.

V__ 4y ago
That sounds intriguing. Can you talk about some success (and failures)?
- blagie 4y ago
  No, since that would tie back to my identity. I use throw-away accounts online. When I upgrade my web browser, this account will disappear and a new one will appear. I have the level of fame where you almost certainly wouldn't recognize my name, but where most people (not just on HN) have heard of one project I created from scratch (to give an analogy, very few people would recognize the inventor of the Nerf gun, the Super Soaker, the touch screen, a popular TV show, or the iPod, but if you said "I'm the inventor of the ____," they'd know who you were). It takes about 30 seconds with Google my successes and failures to figure out who I am. I attribute that success to: 1. Being willing and able to talk to a large and diverse set of experts (and not just recognized ones; in the above example, an expert might be a trucker, rather than just a truck designer, and you want to talk to both, not to mention people who hire truckers, people who ship things, etc.). Finding something like an "expert trucker" is probably harder than you'd imagine; "expert trucker" isn't the same as "random trucker." 2. Being able to swallow my ego, ignore my ideas, and follow their advice. Most of my success was based on gluing together ideas that other people / products had in innovative combinations, and in being somehow effective at scouring the universe for good ideas.
nazka 4y ago
Sometimes I actually do a slightly similar one. I do 3. 2. 1. 4. I also sometimes skip point 2. to avoid any bias and follow their own pitfalls instead using my own creativity from the raw material of point 3. But your workflow is great. :) It's the same than Apple or Ford when they created the first cars. Like their famous quote: if Ford asked first to experts what the next transportation will be they would have said faster horses. It had to start from a visionary first and not experts.

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I'm not a designer but one principle I've adopted in most things I purchase is to minimize complexity. My goal is always to optimize for "least willpower consumed". Because I know that if its not easy to do, I'll just skip it after a long day. If I was making something for professionals who might use the tool for long, tiring hours, I'd probably want to give them the least bit of complexity possible. At the end of an 8 hour shift, how many truckers will have the energy (or rather, spare willpower) to press a button, wait for the mirrors to retract, clean it, and press the button to get it back into its original position? Compare that to the much simpler single-step current process (grab cloth, clean mirror). The fewer clicks, the fewer steps, the fewer movements something takes, usually, the better.

_ea1k 4y ago

Considering that the original lead for the project was also the lead for the Cascadia, I don't think its fair to say that they lacked people with industry knowledge.

neither_color 4y ago

If anything it reminds me of all the arguments on slashdot when iPhone was announced that it would never take off because full touchscreen phones without a physical keyboard were a gimmick.

andrepd 4y ago
Fat fingering an instagram post rarely causes an accident which can delete a family from existence in half a second. The argument against touchscreens in vehicles is sound, not just contrarianism.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Is the difference here is there is already long running expectations? The iPhone was charting a brand new course across undiscovered seas, how trucks drivers interact with their vehicle is an experience with literally generations of data.
- simondotau 4y ago
  That's how it looks with the benefit of hindsight. In 2007, there were plenty of people who thought the iPhone wasn't charting a brand new course across undiscovered seas. They thought it was an expensive, overly engineered toy. They thought the smartphone market of Blackberry and Windows Mobile devices was already mature.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Keyboards go back a long way, and the iPhone was widely panned as "not a professional device" because "how could you type email on it?" After all, we all had experience with just how bad on-screen keyboards were. It was so bleeding obvious that Steve was an idiot. But then people actually used iPhones. While not as good as a physical keyboard, Apple's soft keyboard was vastly better than anyone anticipated. So good, in fact, that everyone basically forgot about physical keyboards and started typing their email on iPhones. A big part of it was two things: 1. Apple put an actually-good LCD in the iPhone (Apple's LCDs get brighter and dimmer than the competition) 2. Apple used a capacitive touchscreen (that didn't suck). I think the key thing is "is Tesla going to install good or shitty screens?" My guess is good screens--so I kind of laughed when the trucker complained about Mercedes touchscreens being too bright at night. Just like Apple's good screen enabled things you couldn't have before in a phone, I think Tesla's will too. They can show blind spot cameras, for example. That may mitigate most or all of the impact of the center driver position on visibility. The same cameras can potentially show a better view than the mirrors (who cares if they're hard to clean when you only have them installed for legal compliance). So the giant screens enable Tesla to offer a Semi with vastly better aero than the competition.

imperialdrive 4y ago

Heck, even most of what Microsoft designs/builds/releases is after-the-fact mind boggling un-user-friendly, and they are mostly working on their own and hugely deployed products with many years of real world experience already under their belt. And they still screw it up regularly! I don't readily know what one would call this phenomenon. Is it as serious as technical cancer? Dementia? If feels like a disease that is spreading to so many companies rather far, and fast. Perhaps the good news is that it should result in more competition, I think. Tall growth getting hit with beetles, ideally leaving behind fertile ground for something else?

reaperducer 4y ago

this rant reminds me of many similar things I've read about products that were designed by people only had superficial experience with the industry they are trying to disrupt. I've had similar experience with silly old web development. I spent a week sitting down with actual users of the web site that I was so proud of and watched them use it. Oh, man did that hurt. All the "telemetry" in the world will never prepare you for actually watching real people at work and talking to them. It completely changed the way I build web sites. The Tesla designers should spend more time in truck cabs, shadowing actual truckers. Based on this Twitter rant, it should be illuminating.

Eji1700 4y ago

To me, this point alone continues to highlight that musk is just focusing on looks instead of function- > Tablets. I drove a modern Mercedes truck with tablets and it's pin in the arse. Tablets are simply not designed for use in moving vehicles. You need a physical button, so you can reach for it even without taking your eyes off the road and feel it. (10) This is a KNOWN issue. There's very very little upside to any sort of touchscreen in a moving vehicle. And while in normal cars they move units because features over functionality is acceptable, trucks aren't status symbols first. They do, at the end of the day, have to do the job they're designed for efficiently, and things like this are clearly just "trendy" not practical.

dr-detroit 4y ago
powvans 4y ago
Not just efficiently, safely.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Cars kill 1,500,000 people per year (= a 787 full of passangers every couple hours). What's the big deal about safety? /s
  - Alupis 4y ago
    In the US that number is usually below 30,000, and majority of that 30,000 is alcohol related.
    - hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
      >majority of that 30,000 is alcohol related. What's your source for this? Most sources I'm finding say alcohol-impaired driving is involved in about 30% of US traffic deaths.
      - 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

Devil’s advocate: the buyer and operator of the trucks may not care what the driver thinks. Most of these complaints don’t seem to hit at the truck’s profitability for its target market.

kelnos 4y ago
That's a weird position to advocate from. I mean, it's the traditional soul-sucking capitalist position: who cares about the user as long as it makes money? Gross.
- SgtBastard 4y ago
  Unless the inconveniences inconvenience the decision maker, it wont influence the decision. This is human nature and agnostic of political or economic model that human exists within.
  - masswerk 4y ago
    Well, empathy, social issues, etc, may or may not cause an inconvenience…
- kube-system 4y ago
  > That's a weird position to advocate from. So weird -- it's the devil!
  - a1369209993 4y ago
    Comparing corporate decision makers to devils is unfair and bigoted against devils.
PLenz 4y ago
About half of U.S. truckers own thier own rigs, europe has fewer owner-operators. Do you want to start by throwing out half the domestic market?

Spooky23 4y ago

Why is this surprising. After all it’s the company that eliminated steering wheels and door handles.

UI_at_80x24 4y ago

I've driven truck for 4+ years. Side mirrors: I have _never_ cleaned the mirrors by hand. That happens when I'm refueling with a squeegee on a long pole that they have at truck-stops. I will tell you that those mirrors will vibrate like hell and be difficult to see clearly out of. That far away from the chassis and with only one point of contact will make it vibrate a lot. Gatehouses: that is a very valid point, but most guardhouses (I mostly just have experience with Ford/Chrysler/GM) make you get out of the truck and go open up the trailer. You don't even roll-down the window to talk to them. Weigh-Scales (aka Chicken-Coops) where Highway weight inspection happens: Most just use a speaker on a pole at window height, but other places (like USA/CAN border crossing) you have to pass paperwork back & forth to agent, so this would be difficult. Entry/Egress: these are valid points but the need to enter/exit from the passenger side has only happened to me once. My biggest use of the passenger seat: That's where I kept my cooler for food/beverages. And that brings me to my list of observations that make this tractor seem like a non-starter (from things i noticed watching the '10 hour drive' video): (1) The monitor on the right-side of the driver. Some of the time it was a map/GPS, but most of the time it was displaying text that the driver leaned over/turned his head to read. This might have been dispatch notes, or vehicle diagnostics or something else. HELL NO, not even once would I ever drive something that required that much attention away from the road. (2) Food/Beverage options. Most drivers that I ever saw used a LARGE 24oz-36oz insulated mugs for coffee. A lot would pour an entire pot of coffee into their mug! So most trucks had 'over-sized' cup holders. The 'nicer' trucks I drove also had shelves with guard rails (it always reminded me of boat-storage) in areas that I could put food that I could eat while driving. I didn't see that same kind of space. The less-nice trucks would force me to use the passenger seat. This truck did have lots of area, but there was nothing to prevent things from sliding around. (3) Load/Log paperwork: Usually kept in a clip-board (mandated by law if carrying hazmat material to be stored in drivers-side door pocket). Once again door placement and lack of shelves play an issue here. I often kept mine on the passenger seat. This material is rarely touched while driving, but there is a considerable amount of paperwork that needs to be done each time the truck stops. Related: Notepads. About half the companies that I worked for required that I log the vehicle mileage (and time) when crossing state lines. There might be adequate space for this. Notes were needed to be written down quite frequently. (3) Range to refuel ratio. I drove a 600 mile radius centered around Detroit. I would goto Quebec, Missouri, Tennessee, and all points in between. Each time I needed to 'fill' the fuel tanks would take ~30 minutes. That 30-minutes would give me ~1800 miles of range (VERY rough estimate, I never got close to empty). I would often get fuel at either designated locations (like at the company lot)or when I was OTR I would do it before I stopped for the night (as needed). Even if Tesla built out a super-charger like network for the trucks I can't imagine having enough time to make 3x more stops, with each stop taking MUCH longer.

bsjaux628 4y ago

> Somebody resurrect Steve Jobs He would have hidden the ignition keyhole below the steering wheel because of the ugly aesthetics

kennywinker 4y ago
It's ok, it lights up for 30s after the door opens. Oh you need to find it but were in the cab for longer than 30s? Just open and close the door again, dum-dum!

Brian_K_White 4y ago

And others emulating them. I would like a Rivian for several reasons, but I can not accept the cab, especially the suv. It's the stupidest least functional least convenient least utility thing imaginable for a utility vehicle. It's a rolling Apple "one button" joke.

hedgehog 4y ago

Your critique makes sense, it reminds me of an electric truck startup called Edison that was started by a former truck driver: https://www.edisonmotors.ca https://www.edisonmotors.ca Basically the exact opposite approach, they started by bolting together mostly commodity parts. It's not pretty in a consumer product sense but for industrial users I get the sense that sleek is not good if it comes at any cost to serviceability, durability, parts commonality, etc. I don't know if that specific company will go anywhere but I like the approach.

reissbaker 4y ago

IDK, when I see threads like this hit high rankings on HN, I don't even have to click through to know that it's a rant — it wouldn't make the front page if it was like "Sweet, this looks good." Parts of the thread are just nonsensical; for example, I've seen many other threads and business analysts concerned about whether an electric semi-truck is even viable at all. Meanwhile, this thread explains that "All major truck manufacturers offer [sic] electric trucks for years now." Wow, maybe everyone else is wrong and doesn't know anything about truck sales? So I did the bare minimum of research, and... The Mercedes truck he claims has been offered "for years now" is in prototype phase and has never been released; the Volvo class 8 semi was only released in October of this year and has less than half the range of the Tesla; the Scania was also only launched this year and similarly has less than half the range... He even cites "Nikola" as a manufacturer that you can buy a truck from. Nikola! The infamous company that was convicted of securities fraud for faking their electric truck last year! Apparently as of this year they finally managed to deliver a whopping 48 trucks, all of which were promptly recalled for safety issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation Meanwhile, the snow considerations from the dreaded "angled windscreen." In the thread, the author posts a few pictures of trucks with completely vertical faces. Is that representative of semi trucks? Well, let's go ahead and look at a picture of the Volvo electric class 8 semi that the author was touting... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/18/first-drive-the-volvo-vnr-electric-class-8-semi-truck/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/18/first-drive-the-volvo-v... Uh-oh. It's got way more horizontal faces that the Tesla! And look at those giant mirrors placed 5+ feet in front of the cab... How will the driver wipe them without leaving? Whoops. Or, maybe that's not actually the death sentence for the truck that the author claims? And then there's the "place to put a mattress." But — the Tesla Semi is what's known in America as a "day cab." Day cabs do not have places for mattresses, and it's generally illegal to sleep in one: https://ratings.freightwaves.com/day-cab-vs-sleeper-cab/ https://ratings.freightwaves.com/day-cab-vs-sleeper-cab/. If you're on a route that requires sleeping, you need a sleeper cab. And yup — the Tesla Semi isn't one. But neither is any other day cab. Rants like these are usually pretty boring TBH: if the product is actually terrible, no one will buy it (and thus the author won't be angry about it). The anger betrays their certainty that the product is actually more attractive than they'd hoped, and than they're claiming.

4y ago