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Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor. I made this account via Tor just now to prove the point. It will be dead by default (unless someone "vouches" for it). It's a

Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor. I made this account via Tor just now to prove the point. It will be dead by default (unless someone "vouches" for it). It's a very user-hostile stance that HN takes (along with not letting you delete your account). It really makes you wonder what they're doing with all this data? Doxxing is almost a given.

alexb_ 4y ago
Or they realize that letting Tor users makes spam explode.
ehPReth 4y ago
most sites seem to treat Tor poorly, possibly due to abuse. well-used VPNs also can suffer from Google captchas etc. not that I like that fact, but it seems to be inescapable
amideadfromtor 4y ago
Different poster here. This account and post were done over Tor. Let's see if this holds. EDIT: Yup; dead on arrival.
- torified 4y ago
  Not dead.
sterlind 4y ago
it's more likely they do this to combat spamming. accounts created by Tor are more likely to be used for spam than for legitimate discussion, since Tor evades IP reputation. I'm sure you could email @dang and ask to be un-shadow-banned, and he would do so.
- jbm 4y ago
  Wouldn't emailing @dang be against the purpose of Tor, which is to enhance privacy?
  - super256 4y ago
    > Wouldn't emailing @dang be against the purpose of Tor, which is to enhance privacy? Just use webmail in your tor browser. And don't send it from your main gmail, but create a throwaway.
    - Ajedi32 4y ago
      It's pretty hard to sign up for an email account over Tor. The closest I've seen is Protonmail, which will let you make an anonymous account in exchange for a Bitcoin payment.
      - ipaddr 4y ago
        disposable email services.
    - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
      Neither Google search nor YouTube seem to work (other than very sporadically, presumably if they've not had chance to block an IP yet) over Tor, does GMail?
      - easrng 4y ago
        it makes you enter a captcha (not a recaptcha though oddly) and you need javascript on, but it is possible to sign in and use gmail over tor. idk about creating accounts.
super256 4y ago
How is HN anti-tor? Everyone can read your comment. Wdym by "vouching"? Also, HN deletes your account when you them send a mail as stated in the FAQ. It always sucks to delete accounts with user comments, as it destroys context in old threads. As spiders crawl the web humans should consider anything they post online as undeletable. If you send HN the beforementioned, there is a chance that I can still browse your posts via archive.org or google cache. If you're afraid of doxxing, maybe make a second thought before hitting "reply".
- input_sh 4y ago
  > Everyone can read your comment. Wdym by "vouching"? There's "showdead" profile setting that allows you to see flagged comments, and enough "karma" allows you to vouch for hidden-by-default content. It's one of those hidden (somewhat) features: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggingvouching https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggi...
  - super256 4y ago
    Thank you for the link, I didn't know about half of the features listed there!
nonrandomstring 4y ago
> HN is very anti-tor If by "HN" you mean the site technology and administrative policy, this is quite untrue. I always connect by Tor (simply because I connect to everything by Tor) and never experience any problems with; torsocks www https://news.ycombinator.com FWIW my account here was created over Tor, and only later when I decided the site was kosher and a relatively friendly place did I decide to add personal details. I don't post here with any illusion of anonymity, rather Tor is part of my daily dealings with the internet for a generally pro-active security stance. I trust that a tool created by the US Navy with "defending and spreading democracy" in mind is fit to defend my own needs. I hope that like Facebook, NY Times and the BBC, we may one day see a Hacker News hidden service onion address. That said there does seem to be a negative attitude toward Tor from certain Cloud companies that Flares up here from time to time. They seem unable to reconcile individual desires for personal privacy technologies with their business model of defending free speech from DDOS attacks. It's a complex problem but I do wish they'd try harder yo get on-board with the programme in a world where threats to clients are at least as serious as those facing service providers.
matkoniecz 4y ago
> Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor. I made this account via Tor just now to prove the point. It will be dead by default (unless someone "vouches" for it). Also, Wikipedia blanket-bans Tor because it make trivial to avoid bans and blocks.
imchillyb 4y ago
"Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor..." @deadfromtor Citations please? Otherwise this is horseshit. Many of HN's users signed up and access HN from tor. I /often/ utilize the tor browser to access HN. I've not had a single issue /ever/ with that.
nirvgorilla 4y ago
Yup. Suspicious just like when reddit became hostile to Tor. It's also a violation of the spirit of the internet. Tim Berners-Lee wrote about this in the December 2010 issue of Scientific American that any walled off website that blocks you from accessing it is unacceptable because it's not the web anymore.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  For me old.reddit.com seems to work just as well with or without Tor (eg via Brave). The website served at the raw domain barely functions IME, so perhaps that's where the issue lie?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The problem is user account creation, usually. Read-only access works pretty well in most cases (unless it is behind Cloudflare, then you're @#$%@#^%).
    - crtasm 4y ago
      > unless it is behind Cloudflare, then you're @#$%@#^% Try again, this hasn't been the case for a long time.
- orthecreedence 4y ago
  > Suspicious just like when reddit became hostile to Tor. And any website using Cloudflare.
- RunSet 4y ago
  > any walled off website that blocks you from accessing it is unacceptable because it's not the web anymore. It is a personal point of pride that LokiList allows posting over Tor. Not many clearnet sites do, especially without registration.
Ajedi32 4y ago
Does that restriction go away after you get enough reputation? Or does every single comment need to be vouched for even after several have been posted and accumulated upvotes?
- dang 4y ago
  The former.
dang 4y ago
The restrictions go away after a while, and in the meantime users can vouch for the comments that aren't trolling or spam. They did exactly that for your comment here, as well as for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33898410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33898410. This seems to me a reasonable design that balances the competing concerns. I like that both of these comments turned into examples of the system working properly. It's true that they had to wait a little before getting unkilled*, but that's not "very anti-tor" nor "very user-hostile". (* 20 minutes and 10 minutes, respectively)
LinuxBender 4y ago
I created my account here using a MitM Squid SSL Bump proxy in a VPS provider and posted from that proxy for a few years. Once in a blue moon I would get rate limited, I assume because this site was being abused. AFAIK my posts were never affected by using my VPS proxies. VPS IP's and Tor exit node IP's are often treated as equally hostile by many sites but not here. I avoid Tor because every time I tried it there was just too much latency for me and I don't like someone else controlling the exit node. I eventually stopped using the proxy here on HN not because of this site but Cloudflare and Google would grief me on so many sites that people submit here which made it hard for me to review them and submitting everything to archive.ph is time consuming. I keep the MitM proxy around in case I need to go to a very hostile website or if I want to leave a funny PTR DNS record in their logs.

alexb_ 4y ago

Or they realize that letting Tor users makes spam explode.

ehPReth 4y ago

most sites seem to treat Tor poorly, possibly due to abuse. well-used VPNs also can suffer from Google captchas etc. not that I like that fact, but it seems to be inescapable

amideadfromtor 4y ago

Different poster here. This account and post were done over Tor. Let's see if this holds. EDIT: Yup; dead on arrival.

torified 4y ago
Not dead.

sterlind 4y ago

it's more likely they do this to combat spamming. accounts created by Tor are more likely to be used for spam than for legitimate discussion, since Tor evades IP reputation. I'm sure you could email @dang and ask to be un-shadow-banned, and he would do so.

jbm 4y ago
Wouldn't emailing @dang be against the purpose of Tor, which is to enhance privacy?
- super256 4y ago
  > Wouldn't emailing @dang be against the purpose of Tor, which is to enhance privacy? Just use webmail in your tor browser. And don't send it from your main gmail, but create a throwaway.
  - Ajedi32 4y ago
    It's pretty hard to sign up for an email account over Tor. The closest I've seen is Protonmail, which will let you make an anonymous account in exchange for a Bitcoin payment.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      disposable email services.
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
    Neither Google search nor YouTube seem to work (other than very sporadically, presumably if they've not had chance to block an IP yet) over Tor, does GMail?
    - easrng 4y ago
      it makes you enter a captcha (not a recaptcha though oddly) and you need javascript on, but it is possible to sign in and use gmail over tor. idk about creating accounts.

super256 4y ago

How is HN anti-tor? Everyone can read your comment. Wdym by "vouching"? Also, HN deletes your account when you them send a mail as stated in the FAQ. It always sucks to delete accounts with user comments, as it destroys context in old threads. As spiders crawl the web humans should consider anything they post online as undeletable. If you send HN the beforementioned, there is a chance that I can still browse your posts via archive.org or google cache. If you're afraid of doxxing, maybe make a second thought before hitting "reply".

input_sh 4y ago
> Everyone can read your comment. Wdym by "vouching"? There's "showdead" profile setting that allows you to see flagged comments, and enough "karma" allows you to vouch for hidden-by-default content. It's one of those hidden (somewhat) features: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggingvouching https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggi...
- super256 4y ago
  Thank you for the link, I didn't know about half of the features listed there!

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> HN is very anti-tor If by "HN" you mean the site technology and administrative policy, this is quite untrue. I always connect by Tor (simply because I connect to everything by Tor) and never experience any problems with; torsocks www https://news.ycombinator.com FWIW my account here was created over Tor, and only later when I decided the site was kosher and a relatively friendly place did I decide to add personal details. I don't post here with any illusion of anonymity, rather Tor is part of my daily dealings with the internet for a generally pro-active security stance. I trust that a tool created by the US Navy with "defending and spreading democracy" in mind is fit to defend my own needs. I hope that like Facebook, NY Times and the BBC, we may one day see a Hacker News hidden service onion address. That said there does seem to be a negative attitude toward Tor from certain Cloud companies that Flares up here from time to time. They seem unable to reconcile individual desires for personal privacy technologies with their business model of defending free speech from DDOS attacks. It's a complex problem but I do wish they'd try harder yo get on-board with the programme in a world where threats to clients are at least as serious as those facing service providers.

matkoniecz 4y ago

> Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor. I made this account via Tor just now to prove the point. It will be dead by default (unless someone "vouches" for it). Also, Wikipedia blanket-bans Tor because it make trivial to avoid bans and blocks.

imchillyb 4y ago

"Just FYI that HN is very anti-tor..." @deadfromtor Citations please? Otherwise this is horseshit. Many of HN's users signed up and access HN from tor. I /often/ utilize the tor browser to access HN. I've not had a single issue /ever/ with that.

nirvgorilla 4y ago

Yup. Suspicious just like when reddit became hostile to Tor. It's also a violation of the spirit of the internet. Tim Berners-Lee wrote about this in the December 2010 issue of Scientific American that any walled off website that blocks you from accessing it is unacceptable because it's not the web anymore.

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
For me old.reddit.com seems to work just as well with or without Tor (eg via Brave). The website served at the raw domain barely functions IME, so perhaps that's where the issue lie?
- bombcar 4y ago
  The problem is user account creation, usually. Read-only access works pretty well in most cases (unless it is behind Cloudflare, then you're @#$%@#^%).
  - crtasm 4y ago
    > unless it is behind Cloudflare, then you're @#$%@#^% Try again, this hasn't been the case for a long time.
orthecreedence 4y ago
> Suspicious just like when reddit became hostile to Tor. And any website using Cloudflare.
RunSet 4y ago
> any walled off website that blocks you from accessing it is unacceptable because it's not the web anymore. It is a personal point of pride that LokiList allows posting over Tor. Not many clearnet sites do, especially without registration.

Ajedi32 4y ago

Does that restriction go away after you get enough reputation? Or does every single comment need to be vouched for even after several have been posted and accumulated upvotes?

dang 4y ago
The former.

dang 4y ago

The restrictions go away after a while, and in the meantime users can vouch for the comments that aren't trolling or spam. They did exactly that for your comment here, as well as for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33898410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33898410. This seems to me a reasonable design that balances the competing concerns. I like that both of these comments turned into examples of the system working properly. It's true that they had to wait a little before getting unkilled*, but that's not "very anti-tor" nor "very user-hostile". (* 20 minutes and 10 minutes, respectively)

LinuxBender 4y ago

I created my account here using a MitM Squid SSL Bump proxy in a VPS provider and posted from that proxy for a few years. Once in a blue moon I would get rate limited, I assume because this site was being abused. AFAIK my posts were never affected by using my VPS proxies. VPS IP's and Tor exit node IP's are often treated as equally hostile by many sites but not here. I avoid Tor because every time I tried it there was just too much latency for me and I don't like someone else controlling the exit node. I eventually stopped using the proxy here on HN not because of this site but Cloudflare and Google would grief me on so many sites that people submit here which made it hard for me to review them and submitting everything to archive.ph is time consuming. I keep the MitM proxy around in case I need to go to a very hostile website or if I want to leave a funny PTR DNS record in their logs.