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Reminds me of an article I came across once about artisanal French cheese. The gist was that the French would much rather risk potential illness from raw-milk c

Reminds me of an article I came across once about artisanal French cheese. The gist was that the French would much rather risk potential illness from raw-milk cheese than give up the pleasure of eating it. Growing up in an immigrant family and having lived in Spain a spell, I've come to realize Americans are much too paranoid when it comes to food safety.

caycep 4y ago
and yet despite his alarm at aging ducks the author also has multiple articles on fermented foods on his site...
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Fermentation specifically sterilizes the food. That's what alcohol does. It's analogous to the process of cooking the duck, not the process of hanging it out overnight.
  - justincormack 4y ago
    Its not related to alcohol. Fermentation is mainly about producing acidity that stops harmful bacteria growing (also in the absence of oxygen, plus salted).
Mikeb85 4y ago
Raw milk cheese is safe after a certain age since the good bacteria eliminate the bad bacteria.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  Wouldn't that also apply to pasteurized cheese? Cultures are usually introduced which I would expect to outproduce bad bacteria just like with raw-milk cheese.
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    Yes it does also apply to pasteurized cheese. But pasteurized cheese is safe at any age (young ones safe because of pasteurization step, older ones because of good bacteria). And slightly less flavourful.
    - cheeze_whizz 4y ago
      My informed opinion as a cheese maniac is that raw or pasteurized milk doesn't make any perceptible difference in cheese quality. What makes the difference is a) the animals' diet (which imparts flavors that don't go away with pasteurization), b) the manufacturing process (anything made in a factory will be bland, even if it's made with raw milk) and c) the aging. The most important factor by far is aging. There's a reason why the French have a special name for the special job of aging cheese, "affineur". A good affinage can transform the most mediocre cheese into a culinary tour de force. Source: I make cheese and age it myself.
      - woleium 4y ago
        The pasteurization process itself is much less impactful on taste now than it used to be.
- cheeze_whizz 4y ago
  That's not true. First of all, as cheese ages all the bacteria (and fungi and yeasts) inside it die out because they run out of food to eat. You see, they're trapped in a solid lump of protein so they have nowhere to go. So they die of hunger. That does make the cheese safe to eat so cases of food poisoning from hard cheeses that tend to age for more than three months, are virtually unheard of. Second, whether good bacteria will outnumber the "bad" depends on how many of each ... goodness value? there were at the start. If your raw milk is contaminated with sufficiently high numbers of coliform bacteria (E coli and friends) there is no amount of bacterial goodness that can make that milk good for cheesemaking. Most likely you're looking at "early blowing" (literally the cheese blowing up like a rugby ball, with a great big fissure in its center, because of gasses released by bacteria early in its maturation). Third, some "good" and "bad" bacteria can coexist quite happily with each other simply because they do not consume the same resources and so do not compete for them. Don't have a fourth one for you.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Americans seem a bit weird about food safety, but also American food seems incredibly unsafe. I remember an American colleague of mine absolutely freaking out that I was slicing up chicken without wearing gloves, and he was convinced that I'd be dead by morning from some hideous chicken-borne disease because of it. Apparently chicken in the US really is that dangerous, or something, but I guess someone from the US can comment?
- msla 4y ago
  > I remember an American colleague of mine absolutely freaking out that I was slicing up chicken without wearing gloves, and he was convinced that I'd be dead by morning from some hideous chicken-borne disease because of it. Most Americans aren't like that person. > Apparently chicken in the US really is that dangerous Not to my knowledge. On the other (ungloved) hand, I don't know of any culinary tradition involving eating raw chicken.
- TheAlchemist 4y ago
  I was amazed in the US grocery shops - plenty of warning signs about how eggs are dangerous if not cooked properly etc. Funny thing is that all those signs were next to actually healthy food ! Nothing next to the massively processed food that make up 90% of the shop.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    That's because federal regulations in the US require that eggs be washed and refrigerated prior to selling at grocery stores. On the one hand, this decreases the risk that the egg will get contaminated if someone cooks an unwashed egg, but it also means that it no longer has the protective coating on the shell that unwashed eggs have. That said, I don't think there have been egg related deaths since a raw egg eating competition years ago.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      I remember hearing that the protective coating on unwashed eggs is also where salmonella is most likely to come from as a justification for requiring that the eggs are washed. I don't know how correct that is but it seems to be somewhat commonly believed in the US.
pessimizer 4y ago
Factbox: Fake olive oil scandal that caused Spain's worst food poisoning epidemic in 1981 > * About 100,000 individuals were exposed and clinical disease occurred in 20,000 people, 10,000 of whom were hospitalized, according to Science Direct website. More than 300 victims died and many more were left with chronic disease, Science Direct said. > * According to the survivors' organisation Seguimos Viviendo more than 5,000 people have died over the years and there are 20,000 surviving victims with poor quality of life and incurable afflictions. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fake-olive-oil-scandal-that-caused-spains-worst-food-poisoning-epidemic-1981-2021-10-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fake-olive-oil-scandal-... edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_oil_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_oil_syndrome
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- routerl 4y ago
  You're talking about counterfeit oil... By definition, it didn't follow Spanish food safety laws.
kornhole 4y ago
American education is that everything needs to be sterilized, irradiated, and wrapped in plastic. However it does not seem to matter how the food was created with growth hormones, antibiotics, preservatives, and other questionable ingredients. Some of this might be due to the influence of big ag on our education, media and regulatory systems. These measures definitely benefit the big factories and impose excessive burdens on the small local farms.
- rtpg 4y ago
  People like saying this kind of stuff to imply that, like, steak tartar is safe. The fact of the matter is that yes, all things being equal, things like actually cooking food or not leaving things out at ambient temperature make it safer to eat. The problem with food science is that you can have terrible food hygiene and still survive for a long time! This sort of stuff doesn’t instantly kill you
- shalmanese 4y ago
  Ironically, irradiation is largely illegal in the US whereas it's routinely performed in the EU.
banannaise 4y ago
> I've come to realize Americans are much too paranoid when it comes to food safety On the contrary, Americans come from a culture where food purveyors will happily kill you for a quick buck. American food safety is highly regulated because the American business model makes that necessary.
jiggawatts 4y ago
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2019/05/listeria-deaths-in-france-linked-to-raw-milk-cheese-brand/ https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2019/05/listeria-deaths-in-fr... "I survived, so it must be safe" is not a good argument.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  I'll accept the very small risk, life without fromage is not life worth living. And every food has risks

caycep 4y ago

and yet despite his alarm at aging ducks the author also has multiple articles on fermented foods on his site...

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Fermentation specifically sterilizes the food. That's what alcohol does. It's analogous to the process of cooking the duck, not the process of hanging it out overnight.
- justincormack 4y ago
  Its not related to alcohol. Fermentation is mainly about producing acidity that stops harmful bacteria growing (also in the absence of oxygen, plus salted).

Mikeb85 4y ago

Raw milk cheese is safe after a certain age since the good bacteria eliminate the bad bacteria.

jacobr1 4y ago
Wouldn't that also apply to pasteurized cheese? Cultures are usually introduced which I would expect to outproduce bad bacteria just like with raw-milk cheese.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  Yes it does also apply to pasteurized cheese. But pasteurized cheese is safe at any age (young ones safe because of pasteurization step, older ones because of good bacteria). And slightly less flavourful.
  - cheeze_whizz 4y ago
    My informed opinion as a cheese maniac is that raw or pasteurized milk doesn't make any perceptible difference in cheese quality. What makes the difference is a) the animals' diet (which imparts flavors that don't go away with pasteurization), b) the manufacturing process (anything made in a factory will be bland, even if it's made with raw milk) and c) the aging. The most important factor by far is aging. There's a reason why the French have a special name for the special job of aging cheese, "affineur". A good affinage can transform the most mediocre cheese into a culinary tour de force. Source: I make cheese and age it myself.
    - woleium 4y ago
      The pasteurization process itself is much less impactful on taste now than it used to be.
cheeze_whizz 4y ago
That's not true. First of all, as cheese ages all the bacteria (and fungi and yeasts) inside it die out because they run out of food to eat. You see, they're trapped in a solid lump of protein so they have nowhere to go. So they die of hunger. That does make the cheese safe to eat so cases of food poisoning from hard cheeses that tend to age for more than three months, are virtually unheard of. Second, whether good bacteria will outnumber the "bad" depends on how many of each ... goodness value? there were at the start. If your raw milk is contaminated with sufficiently high numbers of coliform bacteria (E coli and friends) there is no amount of bacterial goodness that can make that milk good for cheesemaking. Most likely you're looking at "early blowing" (literally the cheese blowing up like a rugby ball, with a great big fissure in its center, because of gasses released by bacteria early in its maturation). Third, some "good" and "bad" bacteria can coexist quite happily with each other simply because they do not consume the same resources and so do not compete for them. Don't have a fourth one for you.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Gordonjcp 4y ago

Americans seem a bit weird about food safety, but also American food seems incredibly unsafe. I remember an American colleague of mine absolutely freaking out that I was slicing up chicken without wearing gloves, and he was convinced that I'd be dead by morning from some hideous chicken-borne disease because of it. Apparently chicken in the US really is that dangerous, or something, but I guess someone from the US can comment?

msla 4y ago
> I remember an American colleague of mine absolutely freaking out that I was slicing up chicken without wearing gloves, and he was convinced that I'd be dead by morning from some hideous chicken-borne disease because of it. Most Americans aren't like that person. > Apparently chicken in the US really is that dangerous Not to my knowledge. On the other (ungloved) hand, I don't know of any culinary tradition involving eating raw chicken.
TheAlchemist 4y ago
I was amazed in the US grocery shops - plenty of warning signs about how eggs are dangerous if not cooked properly etc. Funny thing is that all those signs were next to actually healthy food ! Nothing next to the massively processed food that make up 90% of the shop.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  That's because federal regulations in the US require that eggs be washed and refrigerated prior to selling at grocery stores. On the one hand, this decreases the risk that the egg will get contaminated if someone cooks an unwashed egg, but it also means that it no longer has the protective coating on the shell that unwashed eggs have. That said, I don't think there have been egg related deaths since a raw egg eating competition years ago.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    I remember hearing that the protective coating on unwashed eggs is also where salmonella is most likely to come from as a justification for requiring that the eggs are washed. I don't know how correct that is but it seems to be somewhat commonly believed in the US.

pessimizer 4y ago

Factbox: Fake olive oil scandal that caused Spain's worst food poisoning epidemic in 1981 > * About 100,000 individuals were exposed and clinical disease occurred in 20,000 people, 10,000 of whom were hospitalized, according to Science Direct website. More than 300 victims died and many more were left with chronic disease, Science Direct said. > * According to the survivors' organisation Seguimos Viviendo more than 5,000 people have died over the years and there are 20,000 surviving victims with poor quality of life and incurable afflictions. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fake-olive-oil-scandal-that-caused-spains-worst-food-poisoning-epidemic-1981-2021-10-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fake-olive-oil-scandal-... edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_oil_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_oil_syndrome

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
routerl 4y ago
You're talking about counterfeit oil... By definition, it didn't follow Spanish food safety laws.

kornhole 4y ago

American education is that everything needs to be sterilized, irradiated, and wrapped in plastic. However it does not seem to matter how the food was created with growth hormones, antibiotics, preservatives, and other questionable ingredients. Some of this might be due to the influence of big ag on our education, media and regulatory systems. These measures definitely benefit the big factories and impose excessive burdens on the small local farms.

rtpg 4y ago
People like saying this kind of stuff to imply that, like, steak tartar is safe. The fact of the matter is that yes, all things being equal, things like actually cooking food or not leaving things out at ambient temperature make it safer to eat. The problem with food science is that you can have terrible food hygiene and still survive for a long time! This sort of stuff doesn’t instantly kill you
shalmanese 4y ago
Ironically, irradiation is largely illegal in the US whereas it's routinely performed in the EU.

banannaise 4y ago

> I've come to realize Americans are much too paranoid when it comes to food safety On the contrary, Americans come from a culture where food purveyors will happily kill you for a quick buck. American food safety is highly regulated because the American business model makes that necessary.

jiggawatts 4y ago

https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2019/05/listeria-deaths-in-france-linked-to-raw-milk-cheese-brand/ https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2019/05/listeria-deaths-in-fr... "I survived, so it must be safe" is not a good argument.

Georgelemental 4y ago
I'll accept the very small risk, life without fromage is not life worth living. And every food has risks