10 ms·

VW deactivates employee email outside working hours

183 points by j_baker 15y ago

mchanson 15y ago
Union knowledge workers. Outside of healthcare do they exist in the US?
- 286c8cb04bda 15y ago
  In government jobs.
- Duff 15y ago
  State and local government. Some "knowledge worker" roles in phone companies are CWA positions.
- zbuc 15y ago
  Let's start a union.
  - GFKjunior 15y ago
    I'd rather not turn Silicon Valley into the next Detroit.
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      The differences between S.V. and Detroit go far, far beyond the presence or absence of unions.
    - zbuc 15y ago
      Instead, some of us are working to turn Detroit into the next Silicon Valley(well, not quite, but our own thing).
  - kjhughes 15y ago
    Let's start a company.
  - Duff 15y ago
    That solves problems and creates problems. Many things that are decided today based upon merit or by management discretion become tenure based. That is good and bad. The good: - Your contract will require things to be done in a fair and equitable way, per the contract. - Your pay will be more predictable. - Benefits will probably be better. - You will have an advocate in the event of a dispute. The bad: - Your contract will require things to be done in a fair and equitable way, per the contract. - Everyone has an incentive to stick around. - Certain types of people are very good at manipulating systems to their benefit. (This is present in all organizations, but the dynamic is different with a union) I've worked in union positions in the past. IMO, the best thing about it is that there are no secrets with regard to compensation.
    - _delirium 15y ago
      The main "good" bullet point that I think we're missing in tech isn't so much the pay as some sort of collective advocacy on onerous contract provisions. If you're very much in demand, you can cross out parts of your employment contract individually, but it's often hard to individually negotiate those kinds of variances, while lots of people negotiating together could probably get a more reasonable deal. The alternative is to negotiate really collectively at the government level and outright ban the onerous contract provisions, like California's done with many forms of noncompetes.
    - mjwalshe 15y ago
      You are wrongly assuming that M&P (managerial and professional) unions follow the old craft based union model which no M&P union does.
      - Duff 15y ago
        I was a member of such a union, and when the rubber hits the road, seniority rules. I'm not anti-union either. If you're in a big multinational company, they are almost almost certainly better than not having a union.
  - billybob 15y ago
    I can't see how unions are good for anybody. They certainly seem to have crippled GM for a long time. If the workers force the company into unreasonable levels of benefits, it falters and they eventually lose their jobs. I'm all for fair play and sensible regulations, but if the company can't forbid the workers from quitting, I don't see how it's fair that the workers can forbid the company from hiring someone else. I much prefer being on my own for negotiations. I intend to be one of the best workers; why tie my fate to the average? And why tie the company to me if they can find a better employee?
    - ftwinnovations 15y ago
      I find it sad that this comment gets downvotes, and disappointed in the HNers who did so. This comment is not trolling or pointless, but rather is well spoken and makes an excellent counter to a pro-union argument. A comment should never be buried just because you disagree with someone's values.
      - rhizome 15y ago
        Starting your "excellent counter" argument with the words, "I can't see how unions are good for anybody," is Newt Gingrich level debating. If not that, it at least portrays a lack of imagination.
    - geogra4 15y ago
      GM crippled themselves with terribly designed automobiles that no one wanted to purchase. Power and information asymmetry are the rule when you are negotiating with your boss independently. He knows what the other employees at your company make. You do not.
      - count 15y ago
        That's a funny statement, given that GM, even in their crippled state, is the 1st or 2nd largest seller of autos in the world (Toyota and GM have traded places a few times this year, I think?). For terribly designed autos that nobody wanted to purchase, SALES obviously wasn't a big problem for them.
  - pkaler 15y ago
    Let's start a union. And now you have two bosses and two problems. I recommend watching "Waiting For Superman" to see how the teacher's union impedes innovation in education.
    - scarmig 15y ago
      The movie made a good point about how the Finnish education system has better outcomes than ours. The big takeaway I take from this is we should move toward a Scandinavian attitude on unions.
- asmithmd1 15y ago
  Boeing engineers are unionized: http://www.speea.org/ http://www.speea.org/
  - koenigdavidmj 15y ago
    They get overtime too. Something related to being a government contractor, if I recall correctly.
- Thrymr 15y ago
  Public university faculty in many states.
s1rech 15y ago
I live in Germany, and I know many engineers who work for one of the big carmakers (either directly or through some external company). Most of them are under some form of collective bargaining agreement. They have a lot of nice perks, like paid overtime (in the form of days of) and pretty good salaries. Meanwhile I work as a developer for an internet company. I've never heard of anybody working under a CBA, or any kind of compensation for overtime (except for extreme cases, like working on sundays). I earn significantly less too. So I guess unions can be good sometimes, or something.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - vaksel 15y ago
    Germany has plenty of unions and Mercedes, BMW, Audi seem to be doing well enough You have two sides, with U.S. on one side where workers just work, with little thought for quality of life, and the other side is Europe, where they get paid a bit less, but they have 4 weeks vacation and much less demanding work load. I dunno about you, but I'd gladly sacrifice $10K(which is pretty much the whole difference between the two) to get all the perks that europeans get
    - afterburner 15y ago
      4 is the absolute minimum, and in most countries that minimum is 5. The average is more like 7 weeks.
      - vaksel 15y ago
        and in the states, you are lucky if you get 3...with 2 weeks being much more common...and that's the middle class jobs, the lower class ones, you are lucky to get a day of paid vacation
      - bryanlarsen 15y ago
        As far as I understand, Europeans count stat holidays, and Americans don't. A typical American gets 2 weeks of stat holidays on top of their 2 weeks of personal holidays, so that's almost the same as the European getting 4 weeks.
j45 15y ago
Cool idea. Sounds like you can still send emails but not receive any until work. I noticed that mobile email doesn't always help get more work done, unless you're the person asking the questions in the emails. If a bb user is busy answering other people's questions... you're likely doing their work too. The culture of "we're waiting on you" that grows in an organization is the real enemy. Interruptions are bad too. When someone shows up to interrupt and steal your attention indirectly they are saying "what you're doing is not as important as what I have to say". It might not be in those words, the act of interruption does that. Emails, calls, have to be managed. Somehow I manage most days to do okay with zero sms notifications, zero email notifications on my phone and zero notifications on my computer. Nothing beeps. There rarely are many problems that can't wait 1-2 hours. When it's urgent, someone emails, then calls. Poor planning on someone else's part doesn't make an emergency in my part. If people really need you they'll send you stuff a few hours in advance if not a few days. I reward pro-active behaviour and get back to them really fast. Do any of you employ any strategies to get a better email/life balance?
- yock 15y ago
  Poor planning on someone else's part doesn't make an emergency in my part. I've always hated this statement. I can understand, to some extent, not bailing out those who are habitually poorly prepared, but how can you justify not bailing someone out if it's what's best for your company?
  - thebrokencube 15y ago
    In a lot of cases the stuff is habitual, at which point you get extremely irritated that people keep screwing up and all the time you're the one who has to clean up the mess. Yea sometimes stuff happens, and I don't think most people have a problem with helping out. But so many times it makes people feel used, which (at least IMO) is why people have this sentiment.
    - j45 15y ago
      It's a matter of respect for yourself, and the time of others. People who don't respect their own time won't respect the time of others that much. People who think their time is more important than others time will also abuse the time of others. If I bust my tail getting something done for you that you needed and you can't do the same for something I needed, I'm now doubly under the gun. If I said hey, I have to be there for thebrokencube and you believe in not letting me down, guess what, we have that magical thing of having each others backs and supporting each other. Sadly, most offices are daycares for adults. People act out their high school insecurities on an epic scale and wonder why they aren't getting anywhere in life. The key is to be clear that I'm not here to play clean up for messy people. I am happy to pitch in when things go sideways, but do my job and lift the business up. A broken person, or process will only drag things down.
richardburton 15y ago
This is fantastic. I really hope a business-school pumps out a report on this in 12 months' time. Emails should be dealt-with in batches. SMS and phone-calls should be used-for critical communications.
wooyi 15y ago
Unions in developed countries with good labor laws don't make sense. They cater to the mediocre and the masses - and their policies go against the vien of competitiveness and innovation.
- jleader 15y ago
  What do you think happens to "good labor laws" in the absence of unions? An unfortunate consequence of our lobbyist-driven system is that the most effective way for people outside the 1% (actually more like the 0.1%) to get any positive attention from the government is for them to band together and hire their own lobbyists.
- smiler 15y ago
  Are you saying the US has good labour laws? I think most would disagree with you
  - wooyi 15y ago
    Yes. I have worked in Asia, South America. There, you can be openly discriminated or fired without severance. Good is compared to most of the world.
dholowiski 15y ago
For people who genuinely enjoy their jobs, this would be quite painful. I imagine doing this where I work and the employees would revolt.
mc32 15y ago
How do they differentiate critical communication which should get thru? How would this work at a place like Amazon, for example? Even with 24hr staffing, there are some instances when the right person(s) are needed. Letting only messages marked as critical thru could lead to most off-hour massages categorized as important. I can see this working in some industries, but not all.
- ugh 15y ago
  They only turn off email, right? I would imagine that actual phone calls are still possible. I can imagine that working pretty well. I think people are in general much more hesitant to call than to send an email.
- Patrick_Bateman 15y ago
  This would never work at Amazon. Fortunately for Amazon, they're not dependent on unions.
  - j_baker 15y ago
    It's fortunate for Amazon. It apparently isn't fortunate for Amazon's employees. http://articles.mcall.com/2011-11-05/news/mc-allentown-amazon-cold-20111105_1_warehouse-workers-amazon-s-lehigh-valley-warehouse-managers http://articles.mcall.com/2011-11-05/news/mc-allentown-amazo...

183 points by j_baker 15y ago

mchanson 15y ago

Union knowledge workers. Outside of healthcare do they exist in the US?

286c8cb04bda 15y ago
In government jobs.
Duff 15y ago
State and local government. Some "knowledge worker" roles in phone companies are CWA positions.
zbuc 15y ago
Let's start a union.
- GFKjunior 15y ago
  I'd rather not turn Silicon Valley into the next Detroit.
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    The differences between S.V. and Detroit go far, far beyond the presence or absence of unions.
  - zbuc 15y ago
    Instead, some of us are working to turn Detroit into the next Silicon Valley(well, not quite, but our own thing).
- kjhughes 15y ago
  Let's start a company.
- Duff 15y ago
  That solves problems and creates problems. Many things that are decided today based upon merit or by management discretion become tenure based. That is good and bad. The good: - Your contract will require things to be done in a fair and equitable way, per the contract. - Your pay will be more predictable. - Benefits will probably be better. - You will have an advocate in the event of a dispute. The bad: - Your contract will require things to be done in a fair and equitable way, per the contract. - Everyone has an incentive to stick around. - Certain types of people are very good at manipulating systems to their benefit. (This is present in all organizations, but the dynamic is different with a union) I've worked in union positions in the past. IMO, the best thing about it is that there are no secrets with regard to compensation.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    The main "good" bullet point that I think we're missing in tech isn't so much the pay as some sort of collective advocacy on onerous contract provisions. If you're very much in demand, you can cross out parts of your employment contract individually, but it's often hard to individually negotiate those kinds of variances, while lots of people negotiating together could probably get a more reasonable deal. The alternative is to negotiate really collectively at the government level and outright ban the onerous contract provisions, like California's done with many forms of noncompetes.
  - mjwalshe 15y ago
    You are wrongly assuming that M&P (managerial and professional) unions follow the old craft based union model which no M&P union does.
    - Duff 15y ago
      I was a member of such a union, and when the rubber hits the road, seniority rules. I'm not anti-union either. If you're in a big multinational company, they are almost almost certainly better than not having a union.
- billybob 15y ago
  I can't see how unions are good for anybody. They certainly seem to have crippled GM for a long time. If the workers force the company into unreasonable levels of benefits, it falters and they eventually lose their jobs. I'm all for fair play and sensible regulations, but if the company can't forbid the workers from quitting, I don't see how it's fair that the workers can forbid the company from hiring someone else. I much prefer being on my own for negotiations. I intend to be one of the best workers; why tie my fate to the average? And why tie the company to me if they can find a better employee?
  - ftwinnovations 15y ago
    I find it sad that this comment gets downvotes, and disappointed in the HNers who did so. This comment is not trolling or pointless, but rather is well spoken and makes an excellent counter to a pro-union argument. A comment should never be buried just because you disagree with someone's values.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      Starting your "excellent counter" argument with the words, "I can't see how unions are good for anybody," is Newt Gingrich level debating. If not that, it at least portrays a lack of imagination.
  - geogra4 15y ago
    GM crippled themselves with terribly designed automobiles that no one wanted to purchase. Power and information asymmetry are the rule when you are negotiating with your boss independently. He knows what the other employees at your company make. You do not.
    - count 15y ago
      That's a funny statement, given that GM, even in their crippled state, is the 1st or 2nd largest seller of autos in the world (Toyota and GM have traded places a few times this year, I think?). For terribly designed autos that nobody wanted to purchase, SALES obviously wasn't a big problem for them.
- pkaler 15y ago
  Let's start a union. And now you have two bosses and two problems. I recommend watching "Waiting For Superman" to see how the teacher's union impedes innovation in education.
  - scarmig 15y ago
    The movie made a good point about how the Finnish education system has better outcomes than ours. The big takeaway I take from this is we should move toward a Scandinavian attitude on unions.
asmithmd1 15y ago
Boeing engineers are unionized: http://www.speea.org/ http://www.speea.org/
- koenigdavidmj 15y ago
  They get overtime too. Something related to being a government contractor, if I recall correctly.
Thrymr 15y ago
Public university faculty in many states.

s1rech 15y ago

I live in Germany, and I know many engineers who work for one of the big carmakers (either directly or through some external company). Most of them are under some form of collective bargaining agreement. They have a lot of nice perks, like paid overtime (in the form of days of) and pretty good salaries. Meanwhile I work as a developer for an internet company. I've never heard of anybody working under a CBA, or any kind of compensation for overtime (except for extreme cases, like working on sundays). I earn significantly less too. So I guess unions can be good sometimes, or something.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- vaksel 15y ago
  Germany has plenty of unions and Mercedes, BMW, Audi seem to be doing well enough You have two sides, with U.S. on one side where workers just work, with little thought for quality of life, and the other side is Europe, where they get paid a bit less, but they have 4 weeks vacation and much less demanding work load. I dunno about you, but I'd gladly sacrifice $10K(which is pretty much the whole difference between the two) to get all the perks that europeans get
  - afterburner 15y ago
    4 is the absolute minimum, and in most countries that minimum is 5. The average is more like 7 weeks.
    - vaksel 15y ago
      and in the states, you are lucky if you get 3...with 2 weeks being much more common...and that's the middle class jobs, the lower class ones, you are lucky to get a day of paid vacation
    - bryanlarsen 15y ago
      As far as I understand, Europeans count stat holidays, and Americans don't. A typical American gets 2 weeks of stat holidays on top of their 2 weeks of personal holidays, so that's almost the same as the European getting 4 weeks.

j45 15y ago

Cool idea. Sounds like you can still send emails but not receive any until work. I noticed that mobile email doesn't always help get more work done, unless you're the person asking the questions in the emails. If a bb user is busy answering other people's questions... you're likely doing their work too. The culture of "we're waiting on you" that grows in an organization is the real enemy. Interruptions are bad too. When someone shows up to interrupt and steal your attention indirectly they are saying "what you're doing is not as important as what I have to say". It might not be in those words, the act of interruption does that. Emails, calls, have to be managed. Somehow I manage most days to do okay with zero sms notifications, zero email notifications on my phone and zero notifications on my computer. Nothing beeps. There rarely are many problems that can't wait 1-2 hours. When it's urgent, someone emails, then calls. Poor planning on someone else's part doesn't make an emergency in my part. If people really need you they'll send you stuff a few hours in advance if not a few days. I reward pro-active behaviour and get back to them really fast. Do any of you employ any strategies to get a better email/life balance?

yock 15y ago
Poor planning on someone else's part doesn't make an emergency in my part. I've always hated this statement. I can understand, to some extent, not bailing out those who are habitually poorly prepared, but how can you justify not bailing someone out if it's what's best for your company?
- thebrokencube 15y ago
  In a lot of cases the stuff is habitual, at which point you get extremely irritated that people keep screwing up and all the time you're the one who has to clean up the mess. Yea sometimes stuff happens, and I don't think most people have a problem with helping out. But so many times it makes people feel used, which (at least IMO) is why people have this sentiment.
  - j45 15y ago
    It's a matter of respect for yourself, and the time of others. People who don't respect their own time won't respect the time of others that much. People who think their time is more important than others time will also abuse the time of others. If I bust my tail getting something done for you that you needed and you can't do the same for something I needed, I'm now doubly under the gun. If I said hey, I have to be there for thebrokencube and you believe in not letting me down, guess what, we have that magical thing of having each others backs and supporting each other. Sadly, most offices are daycares for adults. People act out their high school insecurities on an epic scale and wonder why they aren't getting anywhere in life. The key is to be clear that I'm not here to play clean up for messy people. I am happy to pitch in when things go sideways, but do my job and lift the business up. A broken person, or process will only drag things down.

richardburton 15y ago

This is fantastic. I really hope a business-school pumps out a report on this in 12 months' time. Emails should be dealt-with in batches. SMS and phone-calls should be used-for critical communications.

wooyi 15y ago

Unions in developed countries with good labor laws don't make sense. They cater to the mediocre and the masses - and their policies go against the vien of competitiveness and innovation.

jleader 15y ago
What do you think happens to "good labor laws" in the absence of unions? An unfortunate consequence of our lobbyist-driven system is that the most effective way for people outside the 1% (actually more like the 0.1%) to get any positive attention from the government is for them to band together and hire their own lobbyists.
smiler 15y ago
Are you saying the US has good labour laws? I think most would disagree with you
- wooyi 15y ago
  Yes. I have worked in Asia, South America. There, you can be openly discriminated or fired without severance. Good is compared to most of the world.

dholowiski 15y ago

For people who genuinely enjoy their jobs, this would be quite painful. I imagine doing this where I work and the employees would revolt.

mc32 15y ago

How do they differentiate critical communication which should get thru? How would this work at a place like Amazon, for example? Even with 24hr staffing, there are some instances when the right person(s) are needed. Letting only messages marked as critical thru could lead to most off-hour massages categorized as important. I can see this working in some industries, but not all.

ugh 15y ago
They only turn off email, right? I would imagine that actual phone calls are still possible. I can imagine that working pretty well. I think people are in general much more hesitant to call than to send an email.
Patrick_Bateman 15y ago
This would never work at Amazon. Fortunately for Amazon, they're not dependent on unions.
- j_baker 15y ago
  It's fortunate for Amazon. It apparently isn't fortunate for Amazon's employees. http://articles.mcall.com/2011-11-05/news/mc-allentown-amazon-cold-20111105_1_warehouse-workers-amazon-s-lehigh-valley-warehouse-managers http://articles.mcall.com/2011-11-05/news/mc-allentown-amazo...