8 ms·

E-ink art frames are a scam (2021)

56 points by scottmcdot 4y ago

beardyw 4y ago
Not really related, but I did see an art installation where the screens had been completely disconnected and removed but retained the grainy image which was on them last.
donatj 4y ago
I'd love an e-ink frame, regardless of the contrast issues.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  The article writer is attacking unspecified providers that are promising more than it is deliverable - not the technology. > High prices, unclear specifications. Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. These devices may easilly become useless if (when) the company closes its doors
  - Kiro 4y ago
    Most of the article is spent on explaining why e-ink is unacceptable for art and why no-one wants this. Clearly nonsense. I want an e-ink display for showing art, regardless of the quality.
- rasse 4y ago
  I bought one from Clemens at https://framelabs.eu/en/ https://framelabs.eu/en/ I've been extremely happy with mine. There are contrast limitations, of course, but you quickly develop an eye for what works on it and what doesn't. But sure, you can't just throw any picture on there and expect to get away with it. Note that it's made in and ships from Germany.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    I can see that the maximum is 13'', 150 PPI. I suggest one could buy an EPD tablet - you can find 13'', 300 PPI - and build a nice wall mounted (or table sitting) frame structure for resting. (Setting the "power off" picture in Android (you do not need the OS to be on to display the picture) can be an ugly process, but there may be workarounds)
  - api 4y ago
    Is it locked to someone’s cloud where it will stop working randomly when they decide to shut down the service?
    - Hellion 4y ago
      The page linked doesn’t say a lot, but it does say “local web interface”
      - api 4y ago
        That’s a good sign.
its-summertime 4y ago
Legislation for labeling product images as selectively enhanced, or composite, would be nice
- agys 4y ago
  Especially for food!
  - fredley 4y ago
    And people!
- dehrmann 4y ago
  It'd be about as useful as California's Proposition 65.
- sofixa 4y ago
  There's already a law for this in France and it's quite useful.
selamtux 4y ago
a sculptor want to make a good art and last to the end. one artist chooses the sand to make sculp to last longer and it doesnt last longer. who's we should blame? to artist, to sand, to wind and waves, to art?
asciimov 4y ago
I'm sorry that this guy feels that these devices are a scam. E-ink frames have their own aesthetic and do a decent job of displaying black and white photos. Sure they have some limitations, but they are good enough and solve a particular problem if you have a large amount of b&w photos to display.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  maybe, but this is pretty damning > Nice looking website, edited and misleading pictures and videos with a soothing voice to let you sleep and distract you from the truth. > High prices, unclear specifications. Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. These devices may easilly become useless if (when) the company closes its doors. just be transparent about what you're selling and don't require a service for something that can easily be done offline
  - AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
    The author makes it impossible to judge though by refusing to link to the website in question. While I won't judge him or assume malice, I would strongly prefer to make my own judgements about the honesty of their advertising.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  B&W photos generally don't look very nice on e-ink (you end up with either strong banding or plenty of noticeable dither); ink drawings do though. You want high contrast content that doesn't rely on grayscale too much there.
seba_dos1 4y ago
> Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. Get an Inkplate[0] and easily display whatever you want however you want. My one serves as an automated calendar and trash collection schedule, decorated with inkpen drawings that look great on e-ink[1]. [0] https://inkplate.io/ https://inkplate.io/ [1] https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/108698546628218087 https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/108698546628218087 / https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/109291506657105213 https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/109291506657105213
- sedatk 4y ago
  E-paper and E-ink are different technologies though. E-paper is transfletive LCD and requires power to keep the image on the display.
  - seba_dos1 4y ago
    E-paper and e-ink are synonyms (well, to be more precise, e-ink is a brand of e-paper, but those terms are being commonly used as synonymous). Not sure what you're referring to regarding transflective screens, as both the article and my comment refer to displays that only need power to update their content. I also have a device with a transflective LCD, it's called Nokia N900 - it would be hard to mistake one display for another ;)
    - lazycow 4y ago
      Might be referring to monochrome RLCD as used on Hisense Q5. Some press calls it e-paper.
      - sedatk 4y ago
        Nope, see my sibling comment.
    - sedatk 4y ago
      Pebble had branded its transflective LCD display as e-paper. So, it signifies transflective display commercially, unless owner of the trademark decides to do something else with it. (I'm not sure though the term was trademarked, but it had been used for transflective displays for a while). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display#Trade_names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...
jrm4 4y ago
Honestly, this is as close to an objectively wrong "opinion" as I've seen on here. I think a scam is best defined as something where there's a huge disjoint between what is sold/marketed, and what the person actually receives or experiences. They may not look AMAZING, but so what? They do what they say on the tin.
- spiderice 4y ago
  > there's a huge disjoint between what is sold/marketed I think that's exactly what OP is arguing here. The website (which they didn't link to) showed entirely different capabilities than what the product can do. Nothing "objectively wrong" about that EDIT: Take this website for example [1]. I have no idea if this is the website OP ordered from (it's just one of the top google results), but if I ordered a picture frame from this website, and it turned out to be what OP ended up with, I would 100% consider that a scam. No question. [1] https://www.ionnyk.com/ https://www.ionnyk.com/
  - dandelany 4y ago
    OK, but that is just one product. I agree that some companies are overselling e-ink in a way that is scammy, but that doesn’t mean the whole market is a scam. Plenty of products eg. Inkplate are upfront about what you’re getting, and I think it looks pretty good, albeit not nearly as good as a proper print.
  - fereptocles 4y ago
    I work there as a software developer, definitely not a scam. It’s not your 50$ kindle quality e-ink. You can check some youtube videos about it to see the real life capabilities of the frame.
maxbbraun 4y ago
Photos are tricky, but you can make e-paper displays look nice if you embrace the constraints. For example: https://accent.ink https://accent.ink
mysecretaccount 4y ago
One of my primary "consumer electronics" dreams for the future is that e-ink displays become cheap and commonplace. Something about screens causes them to steal away your attention. "Ambient" screens for menus in bars/restaurants are convenient but are awful decor. This is why I will never have a utility display in my house for e.g. displaying news, weather. I do not even really care if the tech improves - just give us larger, cheaper e-ink displays with the same DPI/contrast ratio and let them replace ambient screens.
- shultays 4y ago
  They indeed feel magical after getting used to non-ink displays. When I got my first e-ink reader and opened the box I saw that beautiful black and white artwork on screen. My first assumption was it was a plastic film with the artwork on it to protect the screen and I was supposed to remove it But nope, the art was actually being displayed on the screen. Since the display consumes no power even while it is "on", they were shipping with that art on the display My brain was just not able to comprehend a display can show a picture like that without emitting any lights
- Gigachad 4y ago
  You can get TVs that look like paintings. I'm not talking about just having a painting like frame, but I wasn't actually sure if I was looking at a print or a TV. It's mostly to do with the matte screen and low brightness I guess. Supposedly you sacrifice color accuracy for this effect though.
  - scottmcdot 4y ago
    Can you please share what TV you saw?
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      No idea, it was on a wall in a store. I think it might have been the Samsung frame tv.
louwrentius 4y ago
Personally I think e-paper screens are good enough for art reproduction, but it depends on what you are looking for. laser-sharp photo reproductions are out-of-the-question. But to me, that doesn't mean they can't be suitable art frames. E-paper or E-ink displays can totally reproduce art, but they convey more of a 'vibe'. Look at the examples of my 3-color epaper display [0],[1] and/or read my blog article about the device to see for yourself [2]. The key take away is that from a distance, images look great and they are definitely good enough to be fit for purpose. Just take into account the limitation and select artwork for display that better suit this type of screen. [0] https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper05_large.jpg https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper05_large.... [1] https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper04_large.jpg https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper04_large.... [2] https://louwrentius.com/a-1248-inch-1304x984-three-color-e-paper-display-by-waveshare.html https://louwrentius.com/a-1248-inch-1304x984-three-color-e-p...
ketralnis 4y ago
The word scam is really losing all of its meaning
userbinator 4y ago
With only 16 gray levels It's disappointing that, even after several years of a hobbyist showing that it is indeed possible for an EPD to display more than 16 levels, none of the commercially available panel controllers out there have this capability: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140284
josephcsible 4y ago
I don't get why a lot of people are saying this isn't a scam, just because they are somewhat usable for the purpose. The scam part is that the product photos are faked, giving the impression that the images it displays are of a much higher quality than they really are. If you see a product page for an electromagnet that shows it holding up a 50lb weight, and when you get it, it can actually only hold up a 10lb weight, would you not consider that a scam either? Or how about a monitor advertised as 4K but that's actually 1080p?
- Kiro 4y ago
  That's just one specific shop being a scam then and not "E-ink art frames are a scam".

56 points by scottmcdot 4y ago

Not really related, but I did see an art installation where the screens had been completely disconnected and removed but retained the grainy image which was on them last.

donatj 4y ago

I'd love an e-ink frame, regardless of the contrast issues.

mdp2021 4y ago
The article writer is attacking unspecified providers that are promising more than it is deliverable - not the technology. > High prices, unclear specifications. Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. These devices may easilly become useless if (when) the company closes its doors
- Kiro 4y ago
  Most of the article is spent on explaining why e-ink is unacceptable for art and why no-one wants this. Clearly nonsense. I want an e-ink display for showing art, regardless of the quality.
rasse 4y ago
I bought one from Clemens at https://framelabs.eu/en/ https://framelabs.eu/en/ I've been extremely happy with mine. There are contrast limitations, of course, but you quickly develop an eye for what works on it and what doesn't. But sure, you can't just throw any picture on there and expect to get away with it. Note that it's made in and ships from Germany.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I can see that the maximum is 13'', 150 PPI. I suggest one could buy an EPD tablet - you can find 13'', 300 PPI - and build a nice wall mounted (or table sitting) frame structure for resting. (Setting the "power off" picture in Android (you do not need the OS to be on to display the picture) can be an ugly process, but there may be workarounds)
- api 4y ago
  Is it locked to someone’s cloud where it will stop working randomly when they decide to shut down the service?
  - Hellion 4y ago
    The page linked doesn’t say a lot, but it does say “local web interface”
    - api 4y ago
      That’s a good sign.

its-summertime 4y ago

Legislation for labeling product images as selectively enhanced, or composite, would be nice

agys 4y ago
Especially for food!
- fredley 4y ago
  And people!
dehrmann 4y ago
It'd be about as useful as California's Proposition 65.
sofixa 4y ago
There's already a law for this in France and it's quite useful.

selamtux 4y ago

a sculptor want to make a good art and last to the end. one artist chooses the sand to make sculp to last longer and it doesnt last longer. who's we should blame? to artist, to sand, to wind and waves, to art?

asciimov 4y ago

I'm sorry that this guy feels that these devices are a scam. E-ink frames have their own aesthetic and do a decent job of displaying black and white photos. Sure they have some limitations, but they are good enough and solve a particular problem if you have a large amount of b&w photos to display.

8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
maybe, but this is pretty damning > Nice looking website, edited and misleading pictures and videos with a soothing voice to let you sleep and distract you from the truth. > High prices, unclear specifications. Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. These devices may easilly become useless if (when) the company closes its doors. just be transparent about what you're selling and don't require a service for something that can easily be done offline
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
  The author makes it impossible to judge though by refusing to link to the website in question. While I won't judge him or assume malice, I would strongly prefer to make my own judgements about the honesty of their advertising.
seba_dos1 4y ago
B&W photos generally don't look very nice on e-ink (you end up with either strong banding or plenty of noticeable dither); ink drawings do though. You want high contrast content that doesn't rely on grayscale too much there.

seba_dos1 4y ago

> Unclear business model, subscription based, phone app dependant, making you bound to their service. Get an Inkplate[0] and easily display whatever you want however you want. My one serves as an automated calendar and trash collection schedule, decorated with inkpen drawings that look great on e-ink[1]. [0] https://inkplate.io/ https://inkplate.io/ [1] https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/108698546628218087 https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/108698546628218087 / https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/109291506657105213 https://mastodon.social/@holypangolin/109291506657105213

sedatk 4y ago
E-paper and E-ink are different technologies though. E-paper is transfletive LCD and requires power to keep the image on the display.
- seba_dos1 4y ago
  E-paper and e-ink are synonyms (well, to be more precise, e-ink is a brand of e-paper, but those terms are being commonly used as synonymous). Not sure what you're referring to regarding transflective screens, as both the article and my comment refer to displays that only need power to update their content. I also have a device with a transflective LCD, it's called Nokia N900 - it would be hard to mistake one display for another ;)
  - lazycow 4y ago
    Might be referring to monochrome RLCD as used on Hisense Q5. Some press calls it e-paper.
    - sedatk 4y ago
      Nope, see my sibling comment.
  - sedatk 4y ago
    Pebble had branded its transflective LCD display as e-paper. So, it signifies transflective display commercially, unless owner of the trademark decides to do something else with it. (I'm not sure though the term was trademarked, but it had been used for transflective displays for a while). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display#Trade_names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...

jrm4 4y ago

Honestly, this is as close to an objectively wrong "opinion" as I've seen on here. I think a scam is best defined as something where there's a huge disjoint between what is sold/marketed, and what the person actually receives or experiences. They may not look AMAZING, but so what? They do what they say on the tin.

spiderice 4y ago
> there's a huge disjoint between what is sold/marketed I think that's exactly what OP is arguing here. The website (which they didn't link to) showed entirely different capabilities than what the product can do. Nothing "objectively wrong" about that EDIT: Take this website for example [1]. I have no idea if this is the website OP ordered from (it's just one of the top google results), but if I ordered a picture frame from this website, and it turned out to be what OP ended up with, I would 100% consider that a scam. No question. [1] https://www.ionnyk.com/ https://www.ionnyk.com/
- dandelany 4y ago
  OK, but that is just one product. I agree that some companies are overselling e-ink in a way that is scammy, but that doesn’t mean the whole market is a scam. Plenty of products eg. Inkplate are upfront about what you’re getting, and I think it looks pretty good, albeit not nearly as good as a proper print.
- fereptocles 4y ago
  I work there as a software developer, definitely not a scam. It’s not your 50$ kindle quality e-ink. You can check some youtube videos about it to see the real life capabilities of the frame.

maxbbraun 4y ago

Photos are tricky, but you can make e-paper displays look nice if you embrace the constraints. For example: https://accent.ink https://accent.ink

mysecretaccount 4y ago

One of my primary "consumer electronics" dreams for the future is that e-ink displays become cheap and commonplace. Something about screens causes them to steal away your attention. "Ambient" screens for menus in bars/restaurants are convenient but are awful decor. This is why I will never have a utility display in my house for e.g. displaying news, weather. I do not even really care if the tech improves - just give us larger, cheaper e-ink displays with the same DPI/contrast ratio and let them replace ambient screens.

shultays 4y ago
They indeed feel magical after getting used to non-ink displays. When I got my first e-ink reader and opened the box I saw that beautiful black and white artwork on screen. My first assumption was it was a plastic film with the artwork on it to protect the screen and I was supposed to remove it But nope, the art was actually being displayed on the screen. Since the display consumes no power even while it is "on", they were shipping with that art on the display My brain was just not able to comprehend a display can show a picture like that without emitting any lights
Gigachad 4y ago
You can get TVs that look like paintings. I'm not talking about just having a painting like frame, but I wasn't actually sure if I was looking at a print or a TV. It's mostly to do with the matte screen and low brightness I guess. Supposedly you sacrifice color accuracy for this effect though.
- scottmcdot 4y ago
  Can you please share what TV you saw?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    No idea, it was on a wall in a store. I think it might have been the Samsung frame tv.

louwrentius 4y ago

Personally I think e-paper screens are good enough for art reproduction, but it depends on what you are looking for. laser-sharp photo reproductions are out-of-the-question. But to me, that doesn't mean they can't be suitable art frames. E-paper or E-ink displays can totally reproduce art, but they convey more of a 'vibe'. Look at the examples of my 3-color epaper display [0],[1] and/or read my blog article about the device to see for yourself [2]. The key take away is that from a distance, images look great and they are definitely good enough to be fit for purpose. Just take into account the limitation and select artwork for display that better suit this type of screen. [0] https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper05_large.jpg https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper05_large.... [1] https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper04_large.jpg https://louwrentius.com/static/images/epaper/epaper04_large.... [2] https://louwrentius.com/a-1248-inch-1304x984-three-color-e-paper-display-by-waveshare.html https://louwrentius.com/a-1248-inch-1304x984-three-color-e-p...

ketralnis 4y ago

The word scam is really losing all of its meaning

userbinator 4y ago

With only 16 gray levels It's disappointing that, even after several years of a hobbyist showing that it is indeed possible for an EPD to display more than 16 levels, none of the commercially available panel controllers out there have this capability: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140284

josephcsible 4y ago

I don't get why a lot of people are saying this isn't a scam, just because they are somewhat usable for the purpose. The scam part is that the product photos are faked, giving the impression that the images it displays are of a much higher quality than they really are. If you see a product page for an electromagnet that shows it holding up a 50lb weight, and when you get it, it can actually only hold up a 10lb weight, would you not consider that a scam either? Or how about a monitor advertised as 4K but that's actually 1080p?

Kiro 4y ago
That's just one specific shop being a scam then and not "E-ink art frames are a scam".