4 ms·

Honest question; What motivation should a government like Iran's have to listen, if any concession it does give is seen in the West as a great opportunity to sh

by Matl 4y ago

Honest question; What motivation should a government like Iran's have to listen, if any concession it does give is seen in the West as a great opportunity to show that it is weak, on its last legs etc. to try and overthrow it? I am not naive enough to think this is the case here, but say theoretically at some point someone with power in such a government has a human moment and actually wants to give some concessions, say because they have a daughter and can empathize or whatever. Shouldn't we in the collective West be making it so that it is a no-brainer for this person to give this concession, without having to think about how Western governments are going to capitalize on the move to show 'weakness of the regime' etc.? I do not believe overthrowing governments works, if simply because there will always be a feeling then among some parts of the population that it is a puppet, subservient government to whomever helped it win and that they deserve a 'native' government. This fuels a cycle of overthrow and counter-overthrow and does not actually help the people up their standard of living. Sanctions are in the same vein, only making the people suffer. As such, I believe the only reasonable course of action is to make such governments give concessions over time and encourage them to do so via positive reinforcement. They need to arrive at democracy just like the West had time to do.

marcosdumay 4y ago
Why the fixation on the West? This is an entirely Iranian revolution, lead by their own people, with their own, very plain goals.
- easytiger 4y ago
  Iranian government and it's clerical regime use populist anti western ideas to largely justify their existence. Like most Arab elite, the Persian elite are preoccupied with the Anglosphere
  - Matl 4y ago
    I think that's a fair point, but I'd also say that the neocons have been fixated on Iran for a long time. So it's a self-feeding cycle.
- Matl 4y ago
  Because I presume the commenter talking about how this shows them being on their last legs is Western, but mainly because I've seen countless articles about how all this is basically a great opportunity for regime change. If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here, (to the determent of the actual Iranians protesting btw), I have a bridge to sell you. I am a citizen of the West and as such I am somewhat indirectly responsible for its actions, so I feel its important to call it out, since its my money also financing its actions.
  - syzarian 4y ago
    Western governments may not want a regime collapse in Iran. Westerners by and large do want a regime collapse and side with the people who are demonstrating for an end to the Islamic Republic regime. Spy agencies, defense ministries, and foreign affairs advisors my not want a regime change though. One thing to consider is that the grand theft of state monies by the IRGC largely goes to Western banks.
  - rocketbop 4y ago
    > If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here, Can you point to any? Knowing the expat Persian community where I live in Germany, the movement against the regime is very much coming from Iranians. It's Iranians on the streets in Tehran without headscarves, Iranians being shot and killed, Iranians marching and organizing demonstrations.
    - Matl 4y ago
      > . It's Iranians on the streets in Tehran without headscarves, Iranians being shot and killed, Iranians marching and organizing demonstrations. I don't know why people always assume only one thing can ever be true in a given situation. I never suggested it's not an organic movement or that it's not Iranians protesting. That does not mean the West doesn't take advantage of all it can for its own regime change goals. You get articles by U.S. officials saying they want to overthrow Iran fairly openly, say John Bolton, you get U.S. officials speaking at events organized by anti current Iranian regime organizations that themselves are of questionable morals, this is not hard. The main thing is amplification. There are protests in China that are genuine, but overall relatively small, yet they get amplified in the West to seem much bigger. Why do you think that is? The neocons have certainly desired regime change. I am going to repeat myself but I am not a fan of the current Iranian government by any means, yet I do not believe overthrowing governments works, if simply because there will always be a feeling then among some parts of the population that it is a puppet, subservient government to whomever helped it win and that they deserve a 'native' government. This fuels a cycle of overthrow and counter-overthrow and does not actually help the people up their standard of living. We should either support the rights of women globally, including among our Gulf allies and act out of moral principle, rather than some geopolitical chess play - or if we're unwilling to challenge KSA, Egypt, UAE etc. then just shut up about the issue.
- dartharva 4y ago
  Because liberalism is largely a Western concept, at least in origin. And the conservative elites of Iran are popularly of the opinion that the riots and dissent are more a result of "Western" ideals polluting their core society than legitimate dissatisfaction among the people against the government.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    > Because liberalism is largely a Western concept, at least in origin. Hum... I suggest you take a deeper look at this. Modern liberalism is an obvious progression of the ancient variety, and it's really ironic that we are talking about Iran.
    - dartharva 4y ago
      Please educate me how it is an "obvious progression of the ancient variety". I can't claim to know all about the ideology's lineage but I am sure liberalism was definitely an alien concept that had to be gradually seeped into all Asian and Middle-Eastern societies through globalism. It is still at odds with almost every native social structure in the East.
fauigerzigerk 4y ago
>What motivation should a government like Iran's have to listen, if any concession it does give is seen in the West as a great opportunity to show that it is weak, on its last legs etc. to try and overthrow it? The motivation may be unrelated to how it is seen in the West. We might just be overestimating our own role and importance in Iranian affairs. Also, certain regimes will always portray its domestic opponents as puppets of foreign interests, regardless of what anyone says or does.
lajosbacs 4y ago
The 'West' might support the protesters, sure, but the effort is still negligible to the will of Iranians. What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency, all is just conflict between the 'West' and whatever. I just find this stance incredibly patronising. One hears the same thing on Ukraine (from Chomsky, for example).
- Matl 4y ago
  > What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency My stance is the exact opposite, it's that they do have agency but that the constant articles in the West celebrating a chance for some sort of regime change actually gives the Iranian government the ammunition it needs to make them appear sponsored/non-organic. It makes it worse that the West does in fact have a history of regime change in Iran, (that had, as its ultimate consequence, helped to install the current gov. there). If we appeared a lot more indifferent towards changing the regime as such, while supporting the rights of women on moral grounds everywhere, incl our allies such as the Gulf states, we'd have a lot more credibility and removing agency from the protesters by the Iranian authorities would become a lot harder than it is now.
  - lajosbacs 4y ago
    Ok, I see and accept your point. But still after your clarification, I see nothing wrong with west cheering the revolution. a) It is our side b) It is impossible to enforce 'not cheering', one slip is enough to be used against you, see Musk and Russian propaganda. And regarding the Gulf states, I also do not like this. But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia.
    - Matl 4y ago
      > But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia. Hmm...could you clarify? The human rights situation in the Gulf is much, much worse in the Gulf. Would this be because they're easier to get in line?

by Matl 4y ago

marcosdumay 4y ago

Why the fixation on the West? This is an entirely Iranian revolution, lead by their own people, with their own, very plain goals.

easytiger 4y ago
Iranian government and it's clerical regime use populist anti western ideas to largely justify their existence. Like most Arab elite, the Persian elite are preoccupied with the Anglosphere
- Matl 4y ago
  I think that's a fair point, but I'd also say that the neocons have been fixated on Iran for a long time. So it's a self-feeding cycle.
Matl 4y ago
Because I presume the commenter talking about how this shows them being on their last legs is Western, but mainly because I've seen countless articles about how all this is basically a great opportunity for regime change. If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here, (to the determent of the actual Iranians protesting btw), I have a bridge to sell you. I am a citizen of the West and as such I am somewhat indirectly responsible for its actions, so I feel its important to call it out, since its my money also financing its actions.
- syzarian 4y ago
  Western governments may not want a regime collapse in Iran. Westerners by and large do want a regime collapse and side with the people who are demonstrating for an end to the Islamic Republic regime. Spy agencies, defense ministries, and foreign affairs advisors my not want a regime change though. One thing to consider is that the grand theft of state monies by the IRGC largely goes to Western banks.
- rocketbop 4y ago
  > If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here, Can you point to any? Knowing the expat Persian community where I live in Germany, the movement against the regime is very much coming from Iranians. It's Iranians on the streets in Tehran without headscarves, Iranians being shot and killed, Iranians marching and organizing demonstrations.
  - Matl 4y ago
    > . It's Iranians on the streets in Tehran without headscarves, Iranians being shot and killed, Iranians marching and organizing demonstrations. I don't know why people always assume only one thing can ever be true in a given situation. I never suggested it's not an organic movement or that it's not Iranians protesting. That does not mean the West doesn't take advantage of all it can for its own regime change goals. You get articles by U.S. officials saying they want to overthrow Iran fairly openly, say John Bolton, you get U.S. officials speaking at events organized by anti current Iranian regime organizations that themselves are of questionable morals, this is not hard. The main thing is amplification. There are protests in China that are genuine, but overall relatively small, yet they get amplified in the West to seem much bigger. Why do you think that is? The neocons have certainly desired regime change. I am going to repeat myself but I am not a fan of the current Iranian government by any means, yet I do not believe overthrowing governments works, if simply because there will always be a feeling then among some parts of the population that it is a puppet, subservient government to whomever helped it win and that they deserve a 'native' government. This fuels a cycle of overthrow and counter-overthrow and does not actually help the people up their standard of living. We should either support the rights of women globally, including among our Gulf allies and act out of moral principle, rather than some geopolitical chess play - or if we're unwilling to challenge KSA, Egypt, UAE etc. then just shut up about the issue.
dartharva 4y ago
Because liberalism is largely a Western concept, at least in origin. And the conservative elites of Iran are popularly of the opinion that the riots and dissent are more a result of "Western" ideals polluting their core society than legitimate dissatisfaction among the people against the government.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  > Because liberalism is largely a Western concept, at least in origin. Hum... I suggest you take a deeper look at this. Modern liberalism is an obvious progression of the ancient variety, and it's really ironic that we are talking about Iran.
  - dartharva 4y ago
    Please educate me how it is an "obvious progression of the ancient variety". I can't claim to know all about the ideology's lineage but I am sure liberalism was definitely an alien concept that had to be gradually seeped into all Asian and Middle-Eastern societies through globalism. It is still at odds with almost every native social structure in the East.

fauigerzigerk 4y ago

>What motivation should a government like Iran's have to listen, if any concession it does give is seen in the West as a great opportunity to show that it is weak, on its last legs etc. to try and overthrow it? The motivation may be unrelated to how it is seen in the West. We might just be overestimating our own role and importance in Iranian affairs. Also, certain regimes will always portray its domestic opponents as puppets of foreign interests, regardless of what anyone says or does.

lajosbacs 4y ago

The 'West' might support the protesters, sure, but the effort is still negligible to the will of Iranians. What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency, all is just conflict between the 'West' and whatever. I just find this stance incredibly patronising. One hears the same thing on Ukraine (from Chomsky, for example).

Matl 4y ago
> What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency My stance is the exact opposite, it's that they do have agency but that the constant articles in the West celebrating a chance for some sort of regime change actually gives the Iranian government the ammunition it needs to make them appear sponsored/non-organic. It makes it worse that the West does in fact have a history of regime change in Iran, (that had, as its ultimate consequence, helped to install the current gov. there). If we appeared a lot more indifferent towards changing the regime as such, while supporting the rights of women on moral grounds everywhere, incl our allies such as the Gulf states, we'd have a lot more credibility and removing agency from the protesters by the Iranian authorities would become a lot harder than it is now.
- lajosbacs 4y ago
  Ok, I see and accept your point. But still after your clarification, I see nothing wrong with west cheering the revolution. a) It is our side b) It is impossible to enforce 'not cheering', one slip is enough to be used against you, see Musk and Russian propaganda. And regarding the Gulf states, I also do not like this. But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia.
  - Matl 4y ago
    > But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia. Hmm...could you clarify? The human rights situation in the Gulf is much, much worse in the Gulf. Would this be because they're easier to get in line?