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The bigger deal (bigger than the tracking that people usually focus on) might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compa

The bigger deal (bigger than the tracking that people usually focus on) might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China. One minute video that explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hus9fWz0RRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hus9fWz0RRk Further reading: https://www.opindia.com/2022/07/tiktok-china-engineering-other-countries-porn-twerking/ https://www.opindia.com/2022/07/tiktok-china-engineering-oth...

RGamma 4y ago
And idiocy begets idiocy, but this is a problem with US-style social/entertainment media already. Though Chinese and US players do it for different reasons...
rand0mx1 4y ago
Peddling right wing propaganda website from India as your reference. At least put some better resources for your argument.
FpUser 4y ago
>"the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China" No idea if it is true but I think the US and Canada do not need foreign "help" in this department. Dumbification of the average Joes and Janes is a wet dream of every politician and big corps and thanks to advanced tech it is becoming more and more.
mkbkn 4y ago
"opindia" website is an ultra-right wing propaganda website with ties to the current ruling party of India. They are not journalists.
DocTomoe 4y ago
Sounds like a hen/egg problem: It could well be that educational content just performs better in a market where education is valued both by society as well as kids, as compared to a market where most kids want to become an "influencer". That western notice-me-culture has been obvious long before TikTok was a thing - consider reality TV, early YouTube, and the fact that several serial killers apparently murdered for the media attention. Our own culture treats education as something that's not really that important. We promote sports stars with little to no educational background to ivy league universities. Hardly a teenage movie does not take a dump on 'math class'. Our kids are being told to dream and find their passions, but no-one considers them a failure if they get a D in the sciences. The student who excels is not praised societally, but shunned as a 'nerd'. Where 'hustle culture' exists, it is not seen as a way of achievement, but as a way to greater wealth, and almost always unpleasant. Why then are we surprised that educational content does not perform well in the West? As for the second link's part about TikTok promoting sexual confusion: Was it TikTok which started that discussion, or was it celebrities who made alternative sex/gender assignments cool (much like they made smoking cool in the 1950s), supported by pro-sex/gender-divergent activists? Imagine the backlash should TikTok decide to ban these topics from their platform.
bigcat12345678 4y ago
> might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China. The China distortion field Anything normally would be laughed at would be considered dead true when comes to China... Use your f*king mind...
tauwauwau 4y ago
You're criticizing dumb content then show a 1 minute video as explainer, please don't take this the wrong way, but there are very few 1 minute videos that are not dumb.
yibg 4y ago
Tuned towards dumb content or just content people want to watch like on every other platform? Are we getting made at TikTok for giving what their users want?
netheril96 4y ago
Oh, please, as a Chinese I can say with 100% certainty that this is false. The Chinese state media and parents lament in the same way how douyin (tiktok’s version in China) dumb down the next generation of children.
georgedegennaro 4y ago
Alternative hypothesis: US is a developed country, China is a developing country ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
IncRnd 4y ago
I'm not sure that is correct. Tiktok is called douyin in China. When I just went to douyin.com, the first douyin was entitled "the role I play in your life is too vague." That douyin showed a beautiful women eating yogurt as her jacket was perpetually fallen off her bare shoulder. The second douyin was a rap video that showed a women modeling various clothes in different environments. There are government regulations in China that censor and disallow twerking content, but I didn't see any stem videos, either.
mcculley 4y ago
How would a skeptic confirm this? Can one get a VPN inside China?
- protoc 4y ago
  you can download the douyin app or goto https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/ The more stupid things you look for, the more stupid things you see. Its the same in the us as it is in china.
- yibg 4y ago
  Why does it matter what content is shown in China? Many countries have content requirements the US does not. Isn’t the important part what is shown in the US and if it’s manipulated or just responding to user demand like every other platform?
- qwezxcrty 4y ago
  There are VPNs tunneling back to China, search for 翻墙回国 (+ DeepL) and you can find a lot of providers. Those are quite popular for Chinese speaking people outside of China to get access to geoblocked contents (video, music, etc.). But usually the biggest problem is how to get a Chinese phone number. In China, most apps require you to register with a phone number (+SMS verification), which is your de facto personal identity number. Back to the topic, I can confirm this for you. Douyin is also serving shit to Chinese children and the Chinese government do "regulate" them. And of course, between STEM content and shit, most Chinese children I have met (well, genius do exist), prefer shit.
- chucksta 4y ago
  It's open policy, from the link; https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... http://www.cac.gov.cn/2022-01/04/c_1642894606364259.htm http://www.cac.gov.cn/2022-01/04/c_1642894606364259.htm
  - mcculley 4y ago
    I am aware of these policies. It is not clear to me that they are having the claimed effect.
fasthands9 4y ago
I would be personally happy if TikTok disappeared but this seems a bit silly? Is it not equivalent to pointing out that a production making documentaries for both PBS and Netflix would make their PBS content more educational but less sensational than Netflix?
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  And if you'd like both educational and sensational, I highly recommend watching PBS Spacetime with Dr. Matt O'Dowd on YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/pbsspacetime https://youtube.com/c/pbsspacetime
  - pasquinelli 4y ago
    good channel, but i can't agree that it's sensational.
Miner49er 4y ago
This isn't a choice being made by TikTok, this is due to regulations/laws in China. If the US passed laws requiring TikTok to do the same in the US, they would obviously comply.
- hammock 4y ago
  >This isn't a choice being made by TikTok, this is...China Perhaps a distinction without a difference
  - patrickthebold 4y ago
    I actually think it's a good point. There's no way in the US we'd tolerate the government regulating the content on the platform.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      The US government have regulating contents on broadcasters since forever.
    - yibg 4y ago
      Lots of countries have regulations on broadcasting. Percent of locally produced content, what age people can see what etc.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    It is a difference, if TikTok would activly try to make the west dumber and china smarter vs. just different rules of those states. The first could be viewed as a attack vs. the latter is a mere choice of the states involved.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Right, and I think it depends on what the intent is. If TikTok's default would be to just promote "dumb" content everywhere (because that's what increases engagement and sells ads or whatever), but the Chinese government is like "no, you're making our citizens dumber; you have to promote 'smart' content in the China market", then that's totally fine. I mean, I don't agree with the level of interference the Chinese government has empowered itself with, but that's their business. If the Chinese government were forcing TikTok to promote "dumb" content to citizens of adversary countries, then that would be a bit more nefarious.
xmprt 4y ago
It's really hard to prove that this is a result of deliberate algorithms and not simply that Chinese culture promotes things like science and technology whereas the US promotes more dumb things. For example, someone like Logan Paul would have never gained popularity in China but he's one of the biggest creators in the US.
- vlunkr 4y ago
  > someone like Logan Paul would have never gained popularity in China You can't really prove that. They have their own influencer culture that looks just as vapid as ours.
pjc50 4y ago
The US doesn't reward factual programming, that's why the History Channel turned into the Ancient Aliens Channel.
- sschueller 4y ago
  Same append to the learning channel now know as TLC. Not much to learn from "my life with 300kg" or "Dr pimpel popper".
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  As opposed to what other part of the world? Interest in drier, more educational content is less for every human society I know of.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    I found that European TV is a lot drier and more educational than US TV, but I don't know if that's because of interest, regulation, a smaller market (in each language), or ?
    - lzooz 4y ago
      I've only watched European TV but if you say US TV is even worse... it must be like in that movie Idiocracy
      - leereeves 4y ago
        Worse. In the next hour, the History Channel has a show about UFOs, the Travel Channel about ghosts, National Geographic about drugs, TLC (formerly The Learning Channel) has a dating show, and about 10 channels have shows about murders.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nescioquid 4y ago
      In the U.S. we have no non-commercial media free of commercial influence. Our "public" broadcasting services rely on commercial advertisements. Is the European programming you're impressed with publicly funded by any chance?
pasquinelli 4y ago
sounds like china has the right idea. it takes me (in america) constantly weeding the garden of my youtube (also american) to minimize the dumb shit it shows me. so does america want stupid americans? is that not the biggest deal?
- npteljes 4y ago
  >so does america want stupid americans I'd say it depends on the politicians themselves. I'd say populists don't mind the people's stupidity and misery at all, because they turn that into an advantage for themselves, by very publicly providing, or even just promising, a short term relief for them. In this way, systemic issues like the welfare trap or wage slavery give them opportunity to inflate their popularity by organizing handouts, or by redirecting the people's misery to outgroups, such as non-heterosexuals, people of color, immigrants or other marginalized groups like people with addictions.
- krapp 4y ago
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    I think you are too focused on one side of the bubble. The most popular desired career in the US is Youtuber/influencer and before that it was actor. This is just how American culture always was. [1]:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3617062/children-turn-backs-on-traditional-careers-in-favour-of-internet-fame-study-finds/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3617062/children-turn-backs-on... (I get the irony of pushing a gossip blog to prove the point) As others have mentioned, before the rise of Youtube, the learning based channels on TV weren't doing so well in terms of popularity. On a positive note though, our late stage capitalism era(plus half the millenial generation failing) has beaten any idea of "follow your dreams" out of young peoples souls. As a result, Gen-Z (and I suspect Gan Alpha) seem to be very pragmatic when they come of age and realize that the only real viable career is to hide in a closet/cube and be a coder or (surprisingly) enter the trades. Great for the US economy, terrible for the generation's self-esteem. (Gen-Z has one of the highest suicide rate of any generation in American history). [2]:https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-suicide-epidemic https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-s...
seper8 4y ago
It's a cultural war. I'm personally convinced they are also trolling many different ways on platforms such as 4chan and reddit. When the Ukraine war started I noticed so many sleeper accounts suddenly wanting to defend Russia's side...
onetimeusename 4y ago
I think this is a serious issue but underestimated. People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants which I don't think is sustainable or even a healthy view of education. I am basing this on the huge foreign population of our top schools and the push for H1-B visas. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy if people remove themselves from the running for STEM in earlier childhood. This survey showed a growing number of people who want to be social media stars[1] as fewer want to pursue STEM. I can't picture a healthy society that makes this decision. You can't shun important roles of society collectively and then hope everything works out. [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-astronauts-survey-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-a...
- htag 4y ago
  The linked study is for children aged 8-12. How does a 12 year old "remove themselves from the running for STEM"? A six grader taking average math/science classes and getting average grades is on track for qualifying for a science/engineering/math undergraduate program. There's even opportunities later in life for those struggling in school to join STEM. When I was 12 all my friends wanted to be rock stars or professional skateboarders. I seriously doubt the causation between what children want to be in the age group of 8-12 and what they grow up to become.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    I agree that this feels a bit like a moral panic and wanting to be a YouTuber doesn't seem that different from wanting to be an actor, singer, or pro sports player, all dreams many more children have nursed in the past than have pursued in adulthood.
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    People often try to get into top tier high schools to help them in their STEM careers starting at ages 8-12. At elite universities, most students have already seen calculus by the time they get there. A student doing average at age 12 probably won't see calculus by then. I think in reality, preparation for STEM takes years. It helps to have an education that fosters interest at a young age as well. I am specifically questioning the priorities of the US's view of education. As I said, we rely heavily on H1-B and have very large foreign populations in STEM degrees. Social media may not be the cause. What matters is that there clearly isn't early interest. Early interest translates to having more graduates. As I posted elsewhere, there is a clear difference in what degrees foreign students pursue in the US (more STEM) versus what US students pursue. This seems like a difference in values that I think we should examine.
cauthon 4y ago
The primary source of your "further reading" article is Tucker Carlson. Not saying the claim is incorrect, but are there any trustworthy sources supporting it?
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Yes. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... If you want to verify it yourself, go to China, open Douyin. Plus, the story makes internal sense - for example, pornography and the kind of soft-core porn, heavily revealing clothing, and so forth that appears on TikTok is actually illegal in China. Post it, you'd get it censored and removed.
  - the_lonely_road 4y ago
    You should see the porn on Reddit. This is an American consumer issue not a foreign nation issue.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Given that the source is corroborated, looks like the Tucker Carlson source can be trusted. Your opinion on reputation is just that.
  - LordDragonfang 4y ago
    Liars are capable of telling the truth, but that doesn't mean you should assume what they say is true without corroboration. https://www.politifact.com/personalities/tucker-carlson/ https://www.politifact.com/personalities/tucker-carlson/
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      The Tucker Carlson peice is accurate. A reasonable person would incorporate that in their opinion of the source. Politifact "fact check", or really anything that calls itself s fact check, isn't a reliable proxy for forming opinion from primary sources.
unethical_ban 4y ago
Opindia citing Tucker Carlson, Stephen Crowder, and using "alleged" videos of non gender normative people as examples of bad content is pretty revolting. I'll also say that Instagram is just as much trash as TikTok, but it's our trash instead of china's. Infinite-scroll short form trash content is this generation's trash TV, yet more addictive.
- hammock 4y ago
  The left-leaning head of the FBI made similar comments today: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/fbi-director-raises-national-security-concerns-about-tiktok/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/fb... And you won’t believe me when I say this, but in US-China diplomatic terms, an official saying a technology “allows them…if they want to” to perform influence operations means they already are. As further corroboration, Andrew Schultz revealed earlier this week on the PBD podcast that sources at the State Dept confirmed these influencing operations were happening in the US via TikTok
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Oh, I have little doubt personally that TikTok is a malignant tumor, I just don't cite other tumors (Carlson and Crowder) for anything, even the sky being blue. I am quite critical of TikTok, of people who have it installed on their phones, and as someone who unfortunately has Instagram for certain reasons, I see the same mechanisms of hypertracking and attempts to push addictive mind-melting entertainment and softcore porn to people. I am unaware of legitimate critique's of Chris Wray as head of the FBI, but that's besides the point, I suppose. At least we have a comedian on a business writers' podcast to tell us about it.
SoftTalker 4y ago
It's more than dumb content. Tiktok is pushing political agendas. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/30/tiktok-chinese-state-media-divisive-politics/?sh=2bd831514bf0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/30/tik...
Barrin92 4y ago
that's because Americans want that content, and that precedes TikTok by a few decades. Literally every American media channel reflects that. I've seen China blamed for a lot of things, some legitimate, but they didn't force Americans to pick the Kardashians over engineering degrees. American public discourse is becoming that Eric Andre show meme except it's "why did China make me do this"
blopker 4y ago
I'm not sure if this claim is true or not, but the person in your first reference is Andrew Schulz. He's a comedian who has already come out to say that he made all that up, and the media just ran with it [0]. [0]: https://youtube.com/shorts/tAV3QkzHC5E https://youtube.com/shorts/tAV3QkzHC5E
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  So he made it up thinking it was fake - but now it has been independently shown to be likely true. In which case he made up a conspiracy theory then demonstrated to be accurate when he thought it was a joke. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/24/23467181/difference-between-tik-tok-in-china-and-the-us https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/24/23467181/difference-betwe... CBS 60 Minutes Interview with an IT expert just 3 weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY
  - croes 4y ago
    Sounds more like the west gets the standard social media version. Just like YouTube and FB algorithms do serve you more of the same no matter how stupid it is. The Chinese get the version with government enforcement of science and patriotism. Freedom vs. Dictatorship.
  - bjourne 4y ago
    I looked up their so-called "IT expert". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Harris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Harris A bachelor in "ethics of human persuasion" doesn't make one an IT expert.
  - nemothekid 4y ago
    The claim isn't fake. But the idea that this is some TikTok plot to poison America is ridiculous and sinophobic. Douyin is happy show low brow garbage to Chinese netizens, just like chinese gaming companies were happy to let teens play video games 24/7. The difference is the Chinese government won't let them. America could easily do what China did here: enforce regulations on what kind of content social media companies can show minors. Just banning TikTok won't prevent Instagram from running the same playbook on Reels, it's not like Instagram has been the standard for teen mental health in the past 10 years. Douyin isn't educational in China due to the goodness of their hearts, it came from regulation. The issue is, good luck trying to enforce any sort of corporate regulation in the US.
protoc 4y ago
you are brainwashed if you think that is true and/or never used (tiktok AND douyin)
ebzlo 4y ago
This makes absolutely no sense to me and even as an American, often times reads like anti-China propaganda. If the algorithms are showing STEM content on the Chinese version of TikTok, it's likely the result of two reasons: 1. Chinese children prefer STEM content and the algorithm is providing that to them. 2. It's enforced by the Chinese government or someone who believes this kind of content will benefit the Chinese future. In the case of #1, this is a cultural issue and we have no one to blame but ourselves. In the case of #2, which I believe is what most folks who say this are suggesting, I can't imagine why children would then proceed to download the app, use it for hours a day, only to learn science and math. Sure, some may enjoy it (as some in the US would as well), but a vast majority of that market is going to reject this and delete it from their phone. In fact, we have this in the US -- we have educational TV shows, you can visit a library on your free time, etc, but kids don't do it-- because they're kids.
- hammock 4y ago
  Chinese children don’t use TikTok “for hours a day.” Another key difference between their app and ours. They are limited to 40 minutes a day and cannot use it at all between 10pm and 6am. https://www.cnet.com/culture/tiktoks-china-equivalent-limits-kids-to-40-minutes-a-day/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/tiktoks-china-equivalent-limits...
satoru42 4y ago
How much dumb content does it take for one to believe such bullshit? Of course, the system are rewarding dumb content all over the world, because dumb people are the majority all over this planet.

RGamma 4y ago

And idiocy begets idiocy, but this is a problem with US-style social/entertainment media already. Though Chinese and US players do it for different reasons...

rand0mx1 4y ago

Peddling right wing propaganda website from India as your reference. At least put some better resources for your argument.

FpUser 4y ago

>"the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China" No idea if it is true but I think the US and Canada do not need foreign "help" in this department. Dumbification of the average Joes and Janes is a wet dream of every politician and big corps and thanks to advanced tech it is becoming more and more.

mkbkn 4y ago

"opindia" website is an ultra-right wing propaganda website with ties to the current ruling party of India. They are not journalists.

DocTomoe 4y ago

Sounds like a hen/egg problem: It could well be that educational content just performs better in a market where education is valued both by society as well as kids, as compared to a market where most kids want to become an "influencer". That western notice-me-culture has been obvious long before TikTok was a thing - consider reality TV, early YouTube, and the fact that several serial killers apparently murdered for the media attention. Our own culture treats education as something that's not really that important. We promote sports stars with little to no educational background to ivy league universities. Hardly a teenage movie does not take a dump on 'math class'. Our kids are being told to dream and find their passions, but no-one considers them a failure if they get a D in the sciences. The student who excels is not praised societally, but shunned as a 'nerd'. Where 'hustle culture' exists, it is not seen as a way of achievement, but as a way to greater wealth, and almost always unpleasant. Why then are we surprised that educational content does not perform well in the West? As for the second link's part about TikTok promoting sexual confusion: Was it TikTok which started that discussion, or was it celebrities who made alternative sex/gender assignments cool (much like they made smoking cool in the 1950s), supported by pro-sex/gender-divergent activists? Imagine the backlash should TikTok decide to ban these topics from their platform.

bigcat12345678 4y ago

> might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China. The China distortion field Anything normally would be laughed at would be considered dead true when comes to China... Use your f*king mind...

tauwauwau 4y ago

You're criticizing dumb content then show a 1 minute video as explainer, please don't take this the wrong way, but there are very few 1 minute videos that are not dumb.

yibg 4y ago

Tuned towards dumb content or just content people want to watch like on every other platform? Are we getting made at TikTok for giving what their users want?

netheril96 4y ago

Oh, please, as a Chinese I can say with 100% certainty that this is false. The Chinese state media and parents lament in the same way how douyin (tiktok’s version in China) dumb down the next generation of children.

georgedegennaro 4y ago

Alternative hypothesis: US is a developed country, China is a developing country ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IncRnd 4y ago

I'm not sure that is correct. Tiktok is called douyin in China. When I just went to douyin.com, the first douyin was entitled "the role I play in your life is too vague." That douyin showed a beautiful women eating yogurt as her jacket was perpetually fallen off her bare shoulder. The second douyin was a rap video that showed a women modeling various clothes in different environments. There are government regulations in China that censor and disallow twerking content, but I didn't see any stem videos, either.

mcculley 4y ago

How would a skeptic confirm this? Can one get a VPN inside China?

protoc 4y ago
you can download the douyin app or goto https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/ The more stupid things you look for, the more stupid things you see. Its the same in the us as it is in china.
yibg 4y ago
Why does it matter what content is shown in China? Many countries have content requirements the US does not. Isn’t the important part what is shown in the US and if it’s manipulated or just responding to user demand like every other platform?
qwezxcrty 4y ago
There are VPNs tunneling back to China, search for 翻墙回国 (+ DeepL) and you can find a lot of providers. Those are quite popular for Chinese speaking people outside of China to get access to geoblocked contents (video, music, etc.). But usually the biggest problem is how to get a Chinese phone number. In China, most apps require you to register with a phone number (+SMS verification), which is your de facto personal identity number. Back to the topic, I can confirm this for you. Douyin is also serving shit to Chinese children and the Chinese government do "regulate" them. And of course, between STEM content and shit, most Chinese children I have met (well, genius do exist), prefer shit.
chucksta 4y ago
It's open policy, from the link; https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... http://www.cac.gov.cn/2022-01/04/c_1642894606364259.htm http://www.cac.gov.cn/2022-01/04/c_1642894606364259.htm
- mcculley 4y ago
  I am aware of these policies. It is not clear to me that they are having the claimed effect.

fasthands9 4y ago

I would be personally happy if TikTok disappeared but this seems a bit silly? Is it not equivalent to pointing out that a production making documentaries for both PBS and Netflix would make their PBS content more educational but less sensational than Netflix?

TechBro8615 4y ago
And if you'd like both educational and sensational, I highly recommend watching PBS Spacetime with Dr. Matt O'Dowd on YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/pbsspacetime https://youtube.com/c/pbsspacetime
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  good channel, but i can't agree that it's sensational.

Miner49er 4y ago

This isn't a choice being made by TikTok, this is due to regulations/laws in China. If the US passed laws requiring TikTok to do the same in the US, they would obviously comply.

hammock 4y ago
>This isn't a choice being made by TikTok, this is...China Perhaps a distinction without a difference
- patrickthebold 4y ago
  I actually think it's a good point. There's no way in the US we'd tolerate the government regulating the content on the platform.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    The US government have regulating contents on broadcasters since forever.
  - yibg 4y ago
    Lots of countries have regulations on broadcasting. Percent of locally produced content, what age people can see what etc.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  It is a difference, if TikTok would activly try to make the west dumber and china smarter vs. just different rules of those states. The first could be viewed as a attack vs. the latter is a mere choice of the states involved.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Right, and I think it depends on what the intent is. If TikTok's default would be to just promote "dumb" content everywhere (because that's what increases engagement and sells ads or whatever), but the Chinese government is like "no, you're making our citizens dumber; you have to promote 'smart' content in the China market", then that's totally fine. I mean, I don't agree with the level of interference the Chinese government has empowered itself with, but that's their business. If the Chinese government were forcing TikTok to promote "dumb" content to citizens of adversary countries, then that would be a bit more nefarious.

xmprt 4y ago

It's really hard to prove that this is a result of deliberate algorithms and not simply that Chinese culture promotes things like science and technology whereas the US promotes more dumb things. For example, someone like Logan Paul would have never gained popularity in China but he's one of the biggest creators in the US.

vlunkr 4y ago
> someone like Logan Paul would have never gained popularity in China You can't really prove that. They have their own influencer culture that looks just as vapid as ours.

pjc50 4y ago

The US doesn't reward factual programming, that's why the History Channel turned into the Ancient Aliens Channel.

sschueller 4y ago
Same append to the learning channel now know as TLC. Not much to learn from "my life with 300kg" or "Dr pimpel popper".
LAC-Tech 4y ago
As opposed to what other part of the world? Interest in drier, more educational content is less for every human society I know of.
- leereeves 4y ago
  I found that European TV is a lot drier and more educational than US TV, but I don't know if that's because of interest, regulation, a smaller market (in each language), or ?
  - lzooz 4y ago
    I've only watched European TV but if you say US TV is even worse... it must be like in that movie Idiocracy
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Worse. In the next hour, the History Channel has a show about UFOs, the Travel Channel about ghosts, National Geographic about drugs, TLC (formerly The Learning Channel) has a dating show, and about 10 channels have shows about murders.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nescioquid 4y ago
    In the U.S. we have no non-commercial media free of commercial influence. Our "public" broadcasting services rely on commercial advertisements. Is the European programming you're impressed with publicly funded by any chance?

pasquinelli 4y ago

sounds like china has the right idea. it takes me (in america) constantly weeding the garden of my youtube (also american) to minimize the dumb shit it shows me. so does america want stupid americans? is that not the biggest deal?

npteljes 4y ago
>so does america want stupid americans I'd say it depends on the politicians themselves. I'd say populists don't mind the people's stupidity and misery at all, because they turn that into an advantage for themselves, by very publicly providing, or even just promising, a short term relief for them. In this way, systemic issues like the welfare trap or wage slavery give them opportunity to inflate their popularity by organizing handouts, or by redirecting the people's misery to outgroups, such as non-heterosexuals, people of color, immigrants or other marginalized groups like people with addictions.
krapp 4y ago
- nebula8804 4y ago
  I think you are too focused on one side of the bubble. The most popular desired career in the US is Youtuber/influencer and before that it was actor. This is just how American culture always was. [1]:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3617062/children-turn-backs-on-traditional-careers-in-favour-of-internet-fame-study-finds/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3617062/children-turn-backs-on... (I get the irony of pushing a gossip blog to prove the point) As others have mentioned, before the rise of Youtube, the learning based channels on TV weren't doing so well in terms of popularity. On a positive note though, our late stage capitalism era(plus half the millenial generation failing) has beaten any idea of "follow your dreams" out of young peoples souls. As a result, Gen-Z (and I suspect Gan Alpha) seem to be very pragmatic when they come of age and realize that the only real viable career is to hide in a closet/cube and be a coder or (surprisingly) enter the trades. Great for the US economy, terrible for the generation's self-esteem. (Gen-Z has one of the highest suicide rate of any generation in American history). [2]:https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-suicide-epidemic https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-teenage-gen-z-american-s...

seper8 4y ago

It's a cultural war. I'm personally convinced they are also trolling many different ways on platforms such as 4chan and reddit. When the Ukraine war started I noticed so many sleeper accounts suddenly wanting to defend Russia's side...

onetimeusename 4y ago

I think this is a serious issue but underestimated. People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants which I don't think is sustainable or even a healthy view of education. I am basing this on the huge foreign population of our top schools and the push for H1-B visas. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy if people remove themselves from the running for STEM in earlier childhood. This survey showed a growing number of people who want to be social media stars[1] as fewer want to pursue STEM. I can't picture a healthy society that makes this decision. You can't shun important roles of society collectively and then hope everything works out. [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-astronauts-survey-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-a...

htag 4y ago
The linked study is for children aged 8-12. How does a 12 year old "remove themselves from the running for STEM"? A six grader taking average math/science classes and getting average grades is on track for qualifying for a science/engineering/math undergraduate program. There's even opportunities later in life for those struggling in school to join STEM. When I was 12 all my friends wanted to be rock stars or professional skateboarders. I seriously doubt the causation between what children want to be in the age group of 8-12 and what they grow up to become.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I agree that this feels a bit like a moral panic and wanting to be a YouTuber doesn't seem that different from wanting to be an actor, singer, or pro sports player, all dreams many more children have nursed in the past than have pursued in adulthood.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  People often try to get into top tier high schools to help them in their STEM careers starting at ages 8-12. At elite universities, most students have already seen calculus by the time they get there. A student doing average at age 12 probably won't see calculus by then. I think in reality, preparation for STEM takes years. It helps to have an education that fosters interest at a young age as well. I am specifically questioning the priorities of the US's view of education. As I said, we rely heavily on H1-B and have very large foreign populations in STEM degrees. Social media may not be the cause. What matters is that there clearly isn't early interest. Early interest translates to having more graduates. As I posted elsewhere, there is a clear difference in what degrees foreign students pursue in the US (more STEM) versus what US students pursue. This seems like a difference in values that I think we should examine.

cauthon 4y ago

The primary source of your "further reading" article is Tucker Carlson. Not saying the claim is incorrect, but are there any trustworthy sources supporting it?

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Yes. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... If you want to verify it yourself, go to China, open Douyin. Plus, the story makes internal sense - for example, pornography and the kind of soft-core porn, heavily revealing clothing, and so forth that appears on TikTok is actually illegal in China. Post it, you'd get it censored and removed.
- the_lonely_road 4y ago
  You should see the porn on Reddit. This is an American consumer issue not a foreign nation issue.
nonethewiser 4y ago
Given that the source is corroborated, looks like the Tucker Carlson source can be trusted. Your opinion on reputation is just that.
- LordDragonfang 4y ago
  Liars are capable of telling the truth, but that doesn't mean you should assume what they say is true without corroboration. https://www.politifact.com/personalities/tucker-carlson/ https://www.politifact.com/personalities/tucker-carlson/
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    The Tucker Carlson peice is accurate. A reasonable person would incorporate that in their opinion of the source. Politifact "fact check", or really anything that calls itself s fact check, isn't a reliable proxy for forming opinion from primary sources.

unethical_ban 4y ago

Opindia citing Tucker Carlson, Stephen Crowder, and using "alleged" videos of non gender normative people as examples of bad content is pretty revolting. I'll also say that Instagram is just as much trash as TikTok, but it's our trash instead of china's. Infinite-scroll short form trash content is this generation's trash TV, yet more addictive.

hammock 4y ago
The left-leaning head of the FBI made similar comments today: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/fbi-director-raises-national-security-concerns-about-tiktok/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/fb... And you won’t believe me when I say this, but in US-China diplomatic terms, an official saying a technology “allows them…if they want to” to perform influence operations means they already are. As further corroboration, Andrew Schultz revealed earlier this week on the PBD podcast that sources at the State Dept confirmed these influencing operations were happening in the US via TikTok
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Oh, I have little doubt personally that TikTok is a malignant tumor, I just don't cite other tumors (Carlson and Crowder) for anything, even the sky being blue. I am quite critical of TikTok, of people who have it installed on their phones, and as someone who unfortunately has Instagram for certain reasons, I see the same mechanisms of hypertracking and attempts to push addictive mind-melting entertainment and softcore porn to people. I am unaware of legitimate critique's of Chris Wray as head of the FBI, but that's besides the point, I suppose. At least we have a comedian on a business writers' podcast to tell us about it.

SoftTalker 4y ago

It's more than dumb content. Tiktok is pushing political agendas. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/30/tiktok-chinese-state-media-divisive-politics/?sh=2bd831514bf0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/30/tik...

Barrin92 4y ago

that's because Americans want that content, and that precedes TikTok by a few decades. Literally every American media channel reflects that. I've seen China blamed for a lot of things, some legitimate, but they didn't force Americans to pick the Kardashians over engineering degrees. American public discourse is becoming that Eric Andre show meme except it's "why did China make me do this"

blopker 4y ago

I'm not sure if this claim is true or not, but the person in your first reference is Andrew Schulz. He's a comedian who has already come out to say that he made all that up, and the media just ran with it [0]. [0]: https://youtube.com/shorts/tAV3QkzHC5E https://youtube.com/shorts/tAV3QkzHC5E

gjsman-1000 4y ago
So he made it up thinking it was fake - but now it has been independently shown to be likely true. In which case he made up a conspiracy theory then demonstrated to be accurate when he thought it was a joke. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-recommendation-algorithm-regulations-effect-march-1-2022/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-passes-sweeping-re... https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/24/23467181/difference-between-tik-tok-in-china-and-the-us https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/24/23467181/difference-betwe... CBS 60 Minutes Interview with an IT expert just 3 weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0xzuh-6rY
- croes 4y ago
  Sounds more like the west gets the standard social media version. Just like YouTube and FB algorithms do serve you more of the same no matter how stupid it is. The Chinese get the version with government enforcement of science and patriotism. Freedom vs. Dictatorship.
- bjourne 4y ago
  I looked up their so-called "IT expert". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Harris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Harris A bachelor in "ethics of human persuasion" doesn't make one an IT expert.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  The claim isn't fake. But the idea that this is some TikTok plot to poison America is ridiculous and sinophobic. Douyin is happy show low brow garbage to Chinese netizens, just like chinese gaming companies were happy to let teens play video games 24/7. The difference is the Chinese government won't let them. America could easily do what China did here: enforce regulations on what kind of content social media companies can show minors. Just banning TikTok won't prevent Instagram from running the same playbook on Reels, it's not like Instagram has been the standard for teen mental health in the past 10 years. Douyin isn't educational in China due to the goodness of their hearts, it came from regulation. The issue is, good luck trying to enforce any sort of corporate regulation in the US.

protoc 4y ago

you are brainwashed if you think that is true and/or never used (tiktok AND douyin)

ebzlo 4y ago

This makes absolutely no sense to me and even as an American, often times reads like anti-China propaganda. If the algorithms are showing STEM content on the Chinese version of TikTok, it's likely the result of two reasons: 1. Chinese children prefer STEM content and the algorithm is providing that to them. 2. It's enforced by the Chinese government or someone who believes this kind of content will benefit the Chinese future. In the case of #1, this is a cultural issue and we have no one to blame but ourselves. In the case of #2, which I believe is what most folks who say this are suggesting, I can't imagine why children would then proceed to download the app, use it for hours a day, only to learn science and math. Sure, some may enjoy it (as some in the US would as well), but a vast majority of that market is going to reject this and delete it from their phone. In fact, we have this in the US -- we have educational TV shows, you can visit a library on your free time, etc, but kids don't do it-- because they're kids.

hammock 4y ago
Chinese children don’t use TikTok “for hours a day.” Another key difference between their app and ours. They are limited to 40 minutes a day and cannot use it at all between 10pm and 6am. https://www.cnet.com/culture/tiktoks-china-equivalent-limits-kids-to-40-minutes-a-day/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/tiktoks-china-equivalent-limits...

satoru42 4y ago

How much dumb content does it take for one to believe such bullshit? Of course, the system are rewarding dumb content all over the world, because dumb people are the majority all over this planet.