6 ms·

Now every step is full of dark pattern. Just like you wanna save a file in office. If you don't want store it in the cloud, there is always a step more. Also wi

Now every step is full of dark pattern. Just like you wanna save a file in office. If you don't want store it in the cloud, there is always a step more. Also with the free One Drive and store it automaticly somewhere, I helped recently a friend (no computer guy), there are files just everywhere, some in the cloud some there and some somewhere else. Todays Windows is just hostile to non tech people, even to tech people.

rvba 4y ago
I still dont know how to easily save files on local computer in MS Office without pressing F12.
- phcreery 4y ago
  Oh wow, I just tried this and it bring up the Save As.. dialog! I have been so frustrated that MS Office apps don's have a Ctrl+Shift+S Save As.
- Arainach 4y ago
  I don't understand. Ctrl+S gives you a document where the biggest UI element is a box labelled "Choose a location". Clicking on it shows a bunch of locations on my PC (such as my local documents folder) and has a button that says "More Locations". This "More Locations" button takes you to the same Save As dialog that you would get to from clicking on File -> Save As, same as in every program of the last 30 years. In its left menu it has two giant buttons for "This PC" and "Browse". What part wasn't obvious to you? If you're talking about the web apps (who aren't designed for editing local files), File -> Save As has a button called "Save a Copy" that explicitly says right below that "Download a copy to your computer"
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    I haven't used it in a while but I've got to admit that I've missed a lot of extremely obviously placed buttons in the Microsoft office suite. They've designed it in a way that makes my brain go into advert-mode, which basically filters half of the interface until I'm really paying attention and go through it several times.
    - Arainach 4y ago
      What part of this triggers "advert mode"? https://i.imgur.com/AIPcXVd.png https://i.imgur.com/AIPcXVd.png
      - pfraze 4y ago
        The ribbon interface suffers from poor scan-ability. The problem is actually a common one with MS products since they introduced Metro: they use too much vertical space with irregular layouts. Your eyes just scan more quickly if there’s regularity in the layout and grouping along a single axis. The trick I’ve found with the ribbon is to anchor against the labels at the bottoms of each grouping. Why they’re at the bottom and not the top, I can’t say, but those labels help me scan if I start from them.
  - AlanYx 4y ago
    Ctrl+S only does that if a document is unsaved, and it still doesn't actually take you to the save dialog. It takes you to what Microsoft calls the "Save As menu", which takes up the whole window, causing the document content to be obscured, and requires a mouse click after that to get to the actual Save As dialog. For mouse users, getting to the Save As dialog is actually three clicks in recent versions of Word. F12 is just so much more convenient.
    - Arainach 4y ago
      It's still "File -> Save a Copy" (2 clicks) and I'm on an October build that's as new as it gets externally as far as I know: 2210 Build 16.0.15726.20188. The overlap of "users still using Microsoft Office" and "users using local storage" declines with each passing day. IT admins don't want data outside their retention policy/access logging/subject to user hardware failure, and anyone who thinks cloud storage is a malicious big tech plot left the Microsoft ecosystem years ago.
      - andai 4y ago
        By "thinks", do you mean "knows"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg
      - int_19h 4y ago
        Even so, using OneDrive as a backing store for user documents has been integrated into Windows for a while now, and every app that uses standard file save dialogs etc ends up automatically and transparently doing that, so why should Office be special?
      - BarryMilo 4y ago
        Your statement means nothing when Microsoft is using dark patterns to funnel users onto the cloud. Of course the numbers are going up, that in itself does make it a good thing for users.
      - jaclaz 4y ago
        I don't think everyone using office in the workd is "under" an IT Admin supervision, many home users and small businesses still use Word and Excel (and local storage), I believe.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    You mean you have to click through 3 buttons now for what was previously just ‘Save As’?
- dfxm12 4y ago
  Pressing one button seems pretty easy to me. You used to have to press the ctrl+shift+S chord. Alternatively, you could mouse over and click file -> save as or press Alt -> f -> a.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Wow, I didn’t know about F12! Maybe they could remap that to something that doesn’t require reaching for the function row. Maybe CTRL-S.
  - rvba 4y ago
    What I want to do: I created a new file that I want to save in a new folder on shareddrive. Using your method: 1. Make a new spreadhseet, press CTRL+S 2. Get some super limited menu with few last locations -> doesnt include any of the locations I need 3. Click on random location, ten you have to go down and choose "more locations" -> again doesnt have any of the locations I need, neither on shared drive or local computer; at least there is a shortcut to desktop (in the past it wasnt there since they were pushing cloud even more) 4. The next menu shows you more locations - but still not the new location that you want, so you have to find "browse" button. Why not press F12 and get a browse button? Maybe at your work you have one spreadsheet or one PDF, but I often have few open. I also dont even mention the problem of interlinked files (especially Excel files) and Sharepoint, where the folder address become impossible to work with.
walrus01 4y ago
Look at the atrocious consumer abusive workflow to trap a person into signing up for a microsoft cloud-everything account in the new installation workflow for a brand new Windows 10 or 11 install. Or the out-of-box first user experience upon opening and using a new windows 11 laptop. You literally cannot even complete a fresh windows 11 install without a live internet connection now, if you're an ordinary non technical end user. It demands to be connected to some form of wired network or wireless with internet access to report home to microsoft and make a cloud based account. They clearly decided that getting people to sign up for a forever-recurring monthly paid cloud service plan in perpetuity was the best way to go for revenue. Or at least bait them into it by methods like "oh, here's your free 5GB onedrive account, you can totally back up your whole system and use onedrive for everything. What's that, you're out of storage space on your free account? Sign up now for this $12/month account for (some_large_number_of_GB)!"
bluedino 4y ago
I'm just amazed at how much crap is crammed onto the title bars and everything these days. Look at the clean interface of Outlook 97-2003 compared to now. They have undo/redo, "customize quick access toolbar", "ribbon display options", your Office Online account, and other crap on the toolbars that used to have the close/minimize/maximize buttons. I like to think that some PM at Microsoft got promoted and brags about how one of those is 'their' button.
causality0 4y ago
Turning a drop down menu list for saving into a full screen pop up is just so bizarrely user-hostile.
- userbinator 4y ago
  I verbally exclaimed WTF the first time I saw that. How did anyone think that ridiculous distraction is an improvement? Doubly so when the name of the file you want to open next is in the current one --- and helpfully covered up by that abomination.
- est31 4y ago
  It's hostile to users like us that can deal with a lot of data at the same time. But many people when they see "old style" UIs get overwhelmed by the mass of information and data, and having that information subdivided helps people. Sadly, they are the majority and we are the minority, so UIs get designed for them and not for us. Nowadays computing systems are being used by the 99% so they are also designed for the 99%.
  - abigail95 4y ago
    Has anyone tested this? Is Office(CurrentYear) easier to use than 1997?
    - hulitu 4y ago
      Current office is mess. To "Save As..." you need 4 clicks just to open the god damn save dialogue.
      - vegetable 4y ago
        Not in front of a computer rn, but f12 should bring up the save as dialogue box (unless hijacked by another program).
Aeolun 4y ago
Honestly, I consider myself quite tech savvy (programmer right?) but I cannot for the life of me figure out all the different locations you can store files any more. Especially my iPhone is a horror in this regard, but over the years I’ve used so many different forms of cloud storage everything is just spread around everywhere. I think I copied everything to my local disk as well, but it’s 20 years of my life, so I’m disinclined from finally trashing all those various services.
- xen2xen1 4y ago
  Bucket list: 1. Move everything to one cloud or local storage, make it searchable and organized. Nah, won't even happen when I'm dead or about dead, or by the time I'm dead.
rayiner 4y ago
Same here. The punishment for overriding the default file dialog should be public caning Singapore style. Start with the Acrobat team at Adobe.

rvba 4y ago

I still dont know how to easily save files on local computer in MS Office without pressing F12.

phcreery 4y ago
Oh wow, I just tried this and it bring up the Save As.. dialog! I have been so frustrated that MS Office apps don's have a Ctrl+Shift+S Save As.
Arainach 4y ago
I don't understand. Ctrl+S gives you a document where the biggest UI element is a box labelled "Choose a location". Clicking on it shows a bunch of locations on my PC (such as my local documents folder) and has a button that says "More Locations". This "More Locations" button takes you to the same Save As dialog that you would get to from clicking on File -> Save As, same as in every program of the last 30 years. In its left menu it has two giant buttons for "This PC" and "Browse". What part wasn't obvious to you? If you're talking about the web apps (who aren't designed for editing local files), File -> Save As has a button called "Save a Copy" that explicitly says right below that "Download a copy to your computer"
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  I haven't used it in a while but I've got to admit that I've missed a lot of extremely obviously placed buttons in the Microsoft office suite. They've designed it in a way that makes my brain go into advert-mode, which basically filters half of the interface until I'm really paying attention and go through it several times.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    What part of this triggers "advert mode"? https://i.imgur.com/AIPcXVd.png https://i.imgur.com/AIPcXVd.png
    - pfraze 4y ago
      The ribbon interface suffers from poor scan-ability. The problem is actually a common one with MS products since they introduced Metro: they use too much vertical space with irregular layouts. Your eyes just scan more quickly if there’s regularity in the layout and grouping along a single axis. The trick I’ve found with the ribbon is to anchor against the labels at the bottoms of each grouping. Why they’re at the bottom and not the top, I can’t say, but those labels help me scan if I start from them.
- AlanYx 4y ago
  Ctrl+S only does that if a document is unsaved, and it still doesn't actually take you to the save dialog. It takes you to what Microsoft calls the "Save As menu", which takes up the whole window, causing the document content to be obscured, and requires a mouse click after that to get to the actual Save As dialog. For mouse users, getting to the Save As dialog is actually three clicks in recent versions of Word. F12 is just so much more convenient.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    It's still "File -> Save a Copy" (2 clicks) and I'm on an October build that's as new as it gets externally as far as I know: 2210 Build 16.0.15726.20188. The overlap of "users still using Microsoft Office" and "users using local storage" declines with each passing day. IT admins don't want data outside their retention policy/access logging/subject to user hardware failure, and anyone who thinks cloud storage is a malicious big tech plot left the Microsoft ecosystem years ago.
    - andai 4y ago
      By "thinks", do you mean "knows"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg
    - int_19h 4y ago
      Even so, using OneDrive as a backing store for user documents has been integrated into Windows for a while now, and every app that uses standard file save dialogs etc ends up automatically and transparently doing that, so why should Office be special?
    - BarryMilo 4y ago
      Your statement means nothing when Microsoft is using dark patterns to funnel users onto the cloud. Of course the numbers are going up, that in itself does make it a good thing for users.
    - jaclaz 4y ago
      I don't think everyone using office in the workd is "under" an IT Admin supervision, many home users and small businesses still use Word and Excel (and local storage), I believe.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  You mean you have to click through 3 buttons now for what was previously just ‘Save As’?
dfxm12 4y ago
Pressing one button seems pretty easy to me. You used to have to press the ctrl+shift+S chord. Alternatively, you could mouse over and click file -> save as or press Alt -> f -> a.
rayiner 4y ago
Wow, I didn’t know about F12! Maybe they could remap that to something that doesn’t require reaching for the function row. Maybe CTRL-S.
- rvba 4y ago
  What I want to do: I created a new file that I want to save in a new folder on shareddrive. Using your method: 1. Make a new spreadhseet, press CTRL+S 2. Get some super limited menu with few last locations -> doesnt include any of the locations I need 3. Click on random location, ten you have to go down and choose "more locations" -> again doesnt have any of the locations I need, neither on shared drive or local computer; at least there is a shortcut to desktop (in the past it wasnt there since they were pushing cloud even more) 4. The next menu shows you more locations - but still not the new location that you want, so you have to find "browse" button. Why not press F12 and get a browse button? Maybe at your work you have one spreadsheet or one PDF, but I often have few open. I also dont even mention the problem of interlinked files (especially Excel files) and Sharepoint, where the folder address become impossible to work with.

walrus01 4y ago

Look at the atrocious consumer abusive workflow to trap a person into signing up for a microsoft cloud-everything account in the new installation workflow for a brand new Windows 10 or 11 install. Or the out-of-box first user experience upon opening and using a new windows 11 laptop. You literally cannot even complete a fresh windows 11 install without a live internet connection now, if you're an ordinary non technical end user. It demands to be connected to some form of wired network or wireless with internet access to report home to microsoft and make a cloud based account. They clearly decided that getting people to sign up for a forever-recurring monthly paid cloud service plan in perpetuity was the best way to go for revenue. Or at least bait them into it by methods like "oh, here's your free 5GB onedrive account, you can totally back up your whole system and use onedrive for everything. What's that, you're out of storage space on your free account? Sign up now for this $12/month account for (some_large_number_of_GB)!"

bluedino 4y ago

I'm just amazed at how much crap is crammed onto the title bars and everything these days. Look at the clean interface of Outlook 97-2003 compared to now. They have undo/redo, "customize quick access toolbar", "ribbon display options", your Office Online account, and other crap on the toolbars that used to have the close/minimize/maximize buttons. I like to think that some PM at Microsoft got promoted and brags about how one of those is 'their' button.

causality0 4y ago

Turning a drop down menu list for saving into a full screen pop up is just so bizarrely user-hostile.

userbinator 4y ago
I verbally exclaimed WTF the first time I saw that. How did anyone think that ridiculous distraction is an improvement? Doubly so when the name of the file you want to open next is in the current one --- and helpfully covered up by that abomination.
est31 4y ago
It's hostile to users like us that can deal with a lot of data at the same time. But many people when they see "old style" UIs get overwhelmed by the mass of information and data, and having that information subdivided helps people. Sadly, they are the majority and we are the minority, so UIs get designed for them and not for us. Nowadays computing systems are being used by the 99% so they are also designed for the 99%.
- abigail95 4y ago
  Has anyone tested this? Is Office(CurrentYear) easier to use than 1997?
  - hulitu 4y ago
    Current office is mess. To "Save As..." you need 4 clicks just to open the god damn save dialogue.
    - vegetable 4y ago
      Not in front of a computer rn, but f12 should bring up the save as dialogue box (unless hijacked by another program).

Aeolun 4y ago

Honestly, I consider myself quite tech savvy (programmer right?) but I cannot for the life of me figure out all the different locations you can store files any more. Especially my iPhone is a horror in this regard, but over the years I’ve used so many different forms of cloud storage everything is just spread around everywhere. I think I copied everything to my local disk as well, but it’s 20 years of my life, so I’m disinclined from finally trashing all those various services.

xen2xen1 4y ago
Bucket list: 1. Move everything to one cloud or local storage, make it searchable and organized. Nah, won't even happen when I'm dead or about dead, or by the time I'm dead.

rayiner 4y ago

Same here. The punishment for overriding the default file dialog should be public caning Singapore style. Start with the Acrobat team at Adobe.