10 ms·

Young women earn more than men in some US cities

61 points by notlukesky 4y ago

monsecchris 4y ago
> By some estimates, mothers make only 70 cents for every dollar fathers do. For an organisation that concerns itself a great deal about misinformation, it sure does like to spread it around when it fits its narrative.
- FartyMcFarter 4y ago
  I think superficially, that statement might be true. The caveat is that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, and indeed the mistake a lot of people make is to imply (or outright say) that this means women are paid 30% less for the same work.
  - tgv 4y ago
    But strictly literal, what you call "superficial", truth is bad in itself. If someone were to publish "X, who's been called a paedophile by some" or "of Y origin, an ethnic group some claim has a reduced IQ/less hygiene/eats foetuses for breakfast", would you shrug and say "yeah, some would say that"? In general, there's more to text than the literal meaning. Text suggests, and an institution like the BBC knows that.
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    By some estimates, that statement might be true.
    - xwolfi 4y ago
      I dont know, people are paid what they ask weighted down by what can be given for the same work on the market. If women were accepting less pay, you d have entire corporations trying to get rid of men to make room for cheaper women. The reality must be that women and men gravitate towards different jobs and different hours per week. The good thing is that most men and women can unite and create a balance to average their revenue across a couple. My wife is paid more than me but she's doing a job I cant do and she wouldnt even consider doing mine... like, is that bad ? Hard to say, we just balance it out.
- badcppdev 4y ago
  I was about to say the writer doesn't seem to have been very careful with their words but then I checked the article and you have been very careless with your quoting because the entire next paragraph is very relevant the income of mothers. Did you not read that far or did you choose to not include it for a reason?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  In "news" today the narrative is all that matters. Facts are not important.
  - mcphage 4y ago
    This is not a new phenomenon. It wasn't even new in the 1800s when the term "yellow journalism" was coined.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  You deliberately selectively quoted this article in order to advance your own personal agenda. That is the problem that causes misinformation to spread – not this article, where the statement you quoted is immediately followed by further discussion of that estimate and what might affect it. This is a great example of why no article covering this topic can be discussed sensibly on this site – because of bad-faith comments like this.
  - tgv 4y ago
    The paragraph directly following reinforces the statement, doesn't discuss it, and implicitly widens it to all women. The rest of the text repeats the "x cents to the dollar" meme. I don't think that was bad faith.
  - monsecchris 4y ago
    The only personal agenda I have is pointing out staggering hypocrisy and when someone claims to be the arbiter of truth, it is my duty to hold them to it. I would act in exactly the same way if they were claiming the reason they perceive women to be paid less is because they are less intelligent "by some estimates"[1], but I have a strong suspicion they wouldn't do that. In my view, it is the same principle being broken in both examples and all I desire is treating them consistently. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates
- dhruval 4y ago
  I am out of the loop on this stuff, but I vaguely remember hearing / reading this number from multiple sources in the context of workplace sexism. What is the misinformation here ?
newsclues 4y ago
From my experience, young attractive women in sales jobs often do very well. A very common job in this case is waitress. Attractive women are able to vastly out earn the generally men working in the kitchen, by bringing food to a table and looking pretty. Other sales roles have similar gender wage gaps. And then there is Only Fans and sex work. When it comes to some types of employment, most men just can't compete on looks with young attractive women.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  Hm... the looks of pretty recruiters sending me invites on LinkedIn make me want to switch jobs.
  - mahmoudhossam 4y ago
    LinkedIn: Hot recruiters in your area
- throw0101c 4y ago
  Mythbusters did a segment on this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YJ91FKZHI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YJ91FKZHI0
- nigerianbrince 4y ago
  > An average OnlyFans account makes about $150 per month
  - tigeroil 4y ago
    I don't doubt this and I do reckon the average creator on OnlyFans makes a lot less than you'd think, especially from the outliers, but I'd be curious as to how this was calculated. I suspect there's a hell of a lot of inactive creators / ones with one or two followers for example.
    - frankfrankfrank 4y ago
      Ironically, it’s probably the same problem that men faced in dating, a tiny percentage of the top get all the attention while the rest languishes. Even more ironic, because I’m both cases it us about sex, and women control the sexual domain; women in both of these dynamics are squandering and running unrealized value. These dynamics are at extreme civilization ending levels, as sooner of us will surely experience first hand, likely sooner than we may think, because the effects are extremely lagging because there are several phases that must be stepped through before the terminal state becomes apparent.
sn0w_crash 4y ago
- conviencefee999 4y ago
- gumby 4y ago
  The article is entirely nuanced reasoning about the topic.
safety1st 4y ago
Pew's writeup of their own research is a better read than the BBC article. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/28/young-women... The problem with anything written about this topic is that 99% of the time, ideology comes first and the goal of the writer is to either be pro-women, or anti-feminist. It's never a balanced view. Pew's analysis seems pretty balanced. They looked only at young people who work full-time. Within this demographic: 16% - are in metro areas where women earn parity to men, or up to 20% more than men. 47% - are in metro areas where women earn 90-99% of what men earn. 37% - are in metro areas where women earn <90% of men. It also notes that men work 4-5% longer hours than women. What it doesn't dare to touch (I don't blame them) are gender roles and proclivities. Questions like: how much of this is due to men being on average more competitive, and valuing career/financial success more than women do? How much of it is due to women prioritizing family over work? How much of it is due to the professions each gender gravitates toward? Those questions are all based on pretty well established observational data, but people find it very uncomfortable to acknowledge that gender roles exist and men and women continue to have very different preferences about how to live their lives, despite over a century of feminism. I think it's because one camp fundamentally believes that these preferences should be eradicated and the other believes they are natural and acceptable.
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Thanks for the excellent summary. And very good point about the Overton window aspect of this issue. There's a large number of things in this world that might potentially be improved but people aren't allowed to discuss the problems or solutions freely.
- arrrg 4y ago
  Those aren’t the only two possible perspectives. I believe systems should be dismantled that reward being competitive and do not reward care work.
  - belorn 4y ago
    The word "reward" here is doing some heavy lifting, especially since the above comment don't include it. Who is doing the rewarding and what is the reward? Is getting higher wages for doing longer hours at work a reward? Are vacation days rewards? Is it a reward to get higher paid if you do a night shift compared to a day shift?
djohnston 4y ago
- Semaphor 4y ago
  For the whole quote: > But in 22 of the 250 metros examined in the analysis, women’s salaries are on par or better. Why do women out-earn men in highly specific areas of the US – and do promising figures in certain areas mean the wage gap could be slowly closing? Which makes it clear that parent is trying to flame bait. edit: OP -> Parent
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Also the GP is just a misunderstanding of what it means for the wage gap to close. It should be equally as likely that a woman makes more than a man in a given position than the reverse. Finding cases where women out earn men is promising because if all things were equal that’s to be expected sometimes. If across location, time, and field about half the time women make more and vice versa then we’re doing great. Closing the wage gap doesn’t mean “when you control for a bunch of stuff women make the same as men” that’s closing the unexplained gap. It means women as a as a whole make the same as men as a whole.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    When you say OP are you referring to the poster you responded to or the article author? It's not clear.
    - Semaphor 4y ago
      The comment I replied to. Changing to parent.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        ok, thank you. The context seemed to imply the parent, but OP to me implies the person who posted the link so it wasn't clear what you meant.
wiradikusuma 4y ago
Tangentially related, but I'm posting it here because it's an interesting phenomena in my country, so I'm wondering how is it in other countries: You know how usually someone posts interesting job vacancy on LinkedIn, and many people comment or like it? In some cases it's the other way around. Very attractive female fresh grads post on LinkedIn saying "Hey I need job", and the post got popular. The post itself usually is the cover letter (like "To HR:"), accompanied by her photo (it's typical in job application to attach portrait photo). E.g. https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6996294864749436928 https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6996294...

61 points by notlukesky 4y ago

> By some estimates, mothers make only 70 cents for every dollar fathers do. For an organisation that concerns itself a great deal about misinformation, it sure does like to spread it around when it fits its narrative.

FartyMcFarter 4y ago
I think superficially, that statement might be true. The caveat is that it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, and indeed the mistake a lot of people make is to imply (or outright say) that this means women are paid 30% less for the same work.
- tgv 4y ago
  But strictly literal, what you call "superficial", truth is bad in itself. If someone were to publish "X, who's been called a paedophile by some" or "of Y origin, an ethnic group some claim has a reduced IQ/less hygiene/eats foetuses for breakfast", would you shrug and say "yeah, some would say that"? In general, there's more to text than the literal meaning. Text suggests, and an institution like the BBC knows that.
- shapefrog 4y ago
  By some estimates, that statement might be true.
  - xwolfi 4y ago
    I dont know, people are paid what they ask weighted down by what can be given for the same work on the market. If women were accepting less pay, you d have entire corporations trying to get rid of men to make room for cheaper women. The reality must be that women and men gravitate towards different jobs and different hours per week. The good thing is that most men and women can unite and create a balance to average their revenue across a couple. My wife is paid more than me but she's doing a job I cant do and she wouldnt even consider doing mine... like, is that bad ? Hard to say, we just balance it out.
badcppdev 4y ago
I was about to say the writer doesn't seem to have been very careful with their words but then I checked the article and you have been very careless with your quoting because the entire next paragraph is very relevant the income of mothers. Did you not read that far or did you choose to not include it for a reason?
phpisthebest 4y ago
In "news" today the narrative is all that matters. Facts are not important.
- mcphage 4y ago
  This is not a new phenomenon. It wasn't even new in the 1800s when the term "yellow journalism" was coined.
matthewmacleod 4y ago
You deliberately selectively quoted this article in order to advance your own personal agenda. That is the problem that causes misinformation to spread – not this article, where the statement you quoted is immediately followed by further discussion of that estimate and what might affect it. This is a great example of why no article covering this topic can be discussed sensibly on this site – because of bad-faith comments like this.
- tgv 4y ago
  The paragraph directly following reinforces the statement, doesn't discuss it, and implicitly widens it to all women. The rest of the text repeats the "x cents to the dollar" meme. I don't think that was bad faith.
- monsecchris 4y ago
  The only personal agenda I have is pointing out staggering hypocrisy and when someone claims to be the arbiter of truth, it is my duty to hold them to it. I would act in exactly the same way if they were claiming the reason they perceive women to be paid less is because they are less intelligent "by some estimates"[1], but I have a strong suspicion they wouldn't do that. In my view, it is the same principle being broken in both examples and all I desire is treating them consistently. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates
dhruval 4y ago
I am out of the loop on this stuff, but I vaguely remember hearing / reading this number from multiple sources in the context of workplace sexism. What is the misinformation here ?

newsclues 4y ago

From my experience, young attractive women in sales jobs often do very well. A very common job in this case is waitress. Attractive women are able to vastly out earn the generally men working in the kitchen, by bringing food to a table and looking pretty. Other sales roles have similar gender wage gaps. And then there is Only Fans and sex work. When it comes to some types of employment, most men just can't compete on looks with young attractive women.

sam_lowry_ 4y ago
Hm... the looks of pretty recruiters sending me invites on LinkedIn make me want to switch jobs.
- mahmoudhossam 4y ago
  LinkedIn: Hot recruiters in your area
throw0101c 4y ago
Mythbusters did a segment on this: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YJ91FKZHI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YJ91FKZHI0
nigerianbrince 4y ago
> An average OnlyFans account makes about $150 per month
- tigeroil 4y ago
  I don't doubt this and I do reckon the average creator on OnlyFans makes a lot less than you'd think, especially from the outliers, but I'd be curious as to how this was calculated. I suspect there's a hell of a lot of inactive creators / ones with one or two followers for example.
  - frankfrankfrank 4y ago
    Ironically, it’s probably the same problem that men faced in dating, a tiny percentage of the top get all the attention while the rest languishes. Even more ironic, because I’m both cases it us about sex, and women control the sexual domain; women in both of these dynamics are squandering and running unrealized value. These dynamics are at extreme civilization ending levels, as sooner of us will surely experience first hand, likely sooner than we may think, because the effects are extremely lagging because there are several phases that must be stepped through before the terminal state becomes apparent.

sn0w_crash 4y ago

conviencefee999 4y ago
gumby 4y ago
The article is entirely nuanced reasoning about the topic.

safety1st 4y ago

Pew's writeup of their own research is a better read than the BBC article. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/28/young-women-are-out-earning-young-men-in-several-u-s-cities/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/28/young-women... The problem with anything written about this topic is that 99% of the time, ideology comes first and the goal of the writer is to either be pro-women, or anti-feminist. It's never a balanced view. Pew's analysis seems pretty balanced. They looked only at young people who work full-time. Within this demographic: 16% - are in metro areas where women earn parity to men, or up to 20% more than men. 47% - are in metro areas where women earn 90-99% of what men earn. 37% - are in metro areas where women earn <90% of men. It also notes that men work 4-5% longer hours than women. What it doesn't dare to touch (I don't blame them) are gender roles and proclivities. Questions like: how much of this is due to men being on average more competitive, and valuing career/financial success more than women do? How much of it is due to women prioritizing family over work? How much of it is due to the professions each gender gravitates toward? Those questions are all based on pretty well established observational data, but people find it very uncomfortable to acknowledge that gender roles exist and men and women continue to have very different preferences about how to live their lives, despite over a century of feminism. I think it's because one camp fundamentally believes that these preferences should be eradicated and the other believes they are natural and acceptable.

badcppdev 4y ago
Thanks for the excellent summary. And very good point about the Overton window aspect of this issue. There's a large number of things in this world that might potentially be improved but people aren't allowed to discuss the problems or solutions freely.
arrrg 4y ago
Those aren’t the only two possible perspectives. I believe systems should be dismantled that reward being competitive and do not reward care work.
- belorn 4y ago
  The word "reward" here is doing some heavy lifting, especially since the above comment don't include it. Who is doing the rewarding and what is the reward? Is getting higher wages for doing longer hours at work a reward? Are vacation days rewards? Is it a reward to get higher paid if you do a night shift compared to a day shift?

djohnston 4y ago

Semaphor 4y ago
For the whole quote: > But in 22 of the 250 metros examined in the analysis, women’s salaries are on par or better. Why do women out-earn men in highly specific areas of the US – and do promising figures in certain areas mean the wage gap could be slowly closing? Which makes it clear that parent is trying to flame bait. edit: OP -> Parent
- Spivak 4y ago
  Also the GP is just a misunderstanding of what it means for the wage gap to close. It should be equally as likely that a woman makes more than a man in a given position than the reverse. Finding cases where women out earn men is promising because if all things were equal that’s to be expected sometimes. If across location, time, and field about half the time women make more and vice versa then we’re doing great. Closing the wage gap doesn’t mean “when you control for a bunch of stuff women make the same as men” that’s closing the unexplained gap. It means women as a as a whole make the same as men as a whole.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  When you say OP are you referring to the poster you responded to or the article author? It's not clear.
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    The comment I replied to. Changing to parent.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      ok, thank you. The context seemed to imply the parent, but OP to me implies the person who posted the link so it wasn't clear what you meant.

wiradikusuma 4y ago

Tangentially related, but I'm posting it here because it's an interesting phenomena in my country, so I'm wondering how is it in other countries: You know how usually someone posts interesting job vacancy on LinkedIn, and many people comment or like it? In some cases it's the other way around. Very attractive female fresh grads post on LinkedIn saying "Hey I need job", and the post got popular. The post itself usually is the cover letter (like "To HR:"), accompanied by her photo (it's typical in job application to attach portrait photo). E.g. https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6996294864749436928 https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6996294...