4 ms·

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

by jimnotgym 4y ago

throwaway294566 4y ago
Yes. My question is always "show me the shop where I can buy it". Never an answer ;)
- api 4y ago
  Lab bench to product can be 15 years or more, so doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other hard thing is beating Li-Ion. It would have to be a lot better or cheaper to beat the economy of scale. Just a little better won’t displace the incumbent.
  - chongli 4y ago
    That's the thing: Lithium ion batteries are not a fixed technology, they're a moving target. They've evolved dramatically and encompass many different chemistries since they first appeared in the lab in the 70's. But since they're all grouped under the name "Lithium ion" people just think of them as a fixed, static, mature technology.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      That's true, but sodium ion batteries are also not a new technology.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    If you can’t get the Lithium it’ll have a chance. Lithium I believe is quite common, it is just increasing supply could take several years.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  CATL doesn't do retail, but you might be able to preorder a sample.
- chris222 4y ago
  Bluetti (maker of sogens) will be using these cells early next year. https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022 https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022
auscad 4y ago
CATL is the world’s biggest EV battery manufacturer, and they’re planning to mass produce these batteries in the next few months. This isn’t your run of the mill university research press release.
- chris222 4y ago
  You can already buy these cells in home sogens starting early next year. https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022 https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    I do not care for their promo graphics of 10kwh sitting exposed alongside the exterior wall. Were I in a position to be constructing a battery backup, it is going to get its own dedicated concrete shed, separated as far as possible from the house.
    - ace2358 4y ago
      Curious, do you store your care very far away from your house too? I agree with the danger of lithium batteries, I wouldn’t want it attached to my house either!
      - fbdab103 4y ago
        Ha, well GM did inform Bolt owners to stop parking next to the house, so maybe there is something to that logic. Concentrated energy by any other name is a bomb. At least with gasoline, I am fairly confident if/when/where an ignition occurs. With an electronic device with embedded firmwares, I just have to hope that the failsafes are operating.
        account-5 4y ago
        For the uninitiated, what are the risks with these batteries? Are they likely to explode?
404mm 4y ago
I’m more worried that $5k savings per EV will translate to $500 per EV for the end customer. More than anything, I welcome the switch away from lithium for both economic and environmental reasons.
- benj111 4y ago
  In the short term maybe. Long term lower prices means more sales -> more economies of scale -> lower prices. So long term I would expect more savings not less.
caycep 4y ago
I think one underlying current is market prediction - i.e. if CATL's solution is more widely available as a supplier to the larger market, will they eventually "TSMC" Tesla's battery tech?
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
It would have been nice if you did read the article before commenting. You might be right about HN and battery articles, most of the time, but in this case it's quite a credible technology and manufacturer.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that". " News.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- theteapot 4y ago
  It really does read like a paid fluff piece for CATL. I have a hard time believing that's not the case TBH. > It seems like CATL has made a near-perfect EV battery. So should Tesla be worried? ... Not sure how 160Wh/kg equates to perfection.
rkangel 4y ago
While it's not actually in customers hands, there are two things that make this story different from most: * This isn't a research lab announcing, or even an R&D department. This is a large, respected battery manufacturer announcing an imminent mainstream product * The date for being in customers hands is 2023. This isn't the usual "we just need to work out how to manufacture it and then maybe in 10 years". Next year means "we have this production process worked out and are ramping up as we speak".
koverstreet 4y ago
This month, on "cynical people of hacker news".
jillesvangurp 4y ago
This would be one you can see, buy (from the largest battery manufacturer in the world), and generally be all over of pretty soon. Catl took one of the battery chemistries that you've been reading about and are casually dismissing and made it work. It's a bit of a meme on HN that things aren't real or worth talking about until it solves all your imaginary problems is being mass produced, etc. Of course this is a website run by Y combinator with a diverse audience of technologists, startup people, investors, and generally people interested in learning about new things that might be disruptive, revolutionary, etc. Yes, there are a lot of new battery chemistries. And quite a few of them look like they might eventually make a big difference with some further investments. And most of those are highly of interest to both VCs that are investing in these things and, people involved with other startups in the same space, or people like me that like the idea that there are people out there working on solving some of the harder challenges in this world.
colechristensen 4y ago
Context is important > CATL recently stated that they aim to get their sodium-ion battery into production in 2023 and are already talking with manufacturers about using it in their cars. Ultimately, it seems like CATL is ready to take centre stage in the EV battery race and cause a revolution. This is a major manufacturer claiming plans to begin production in the next year and to already be in sales talks. This is pretty far along the “How real is it” spectrum and a major bump for sodium chemistry batteries which last i knew were more in the “lab stage with major drawbacks”

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

throwaway294566 4y ago

Yes. My question is always "show me the shop where I can buy it". Never an answer ;)

api 4y ago
Lab bench to product can be 15 years or more, so doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other hard thing is beating Li-Ion. It would have to be a lot better or cheaper to beat the economy of scale. Just a little better won’t displace the incumbent.
- chongli 4y ago
  That's the thing: Lithium ion batteries are not a fixed technology, they're a moving target. They've evolved dramatically and encompass many different chemistries since they first appeared in the lab in the 70's. But since they're all grouped under the name "Lithium ion" people just think of them as a fixed, static, mature technology.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    That's true, but sodium ion batteries are also not a new technology.
- zeristor 4y ago
  If you can’t get the Lithium it’ll have a chance. Lithium I believe is quite common, it is just increasing supply could take several years.
sudosysgen 4y ago
CATL doesn't do retail, but you might be able to preorder a sample.
chris222 4y ago
Bluetti (maker of sogens) will be using these cells early next year. https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022 https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022

auscad 4y ago

CATL is the world’s biggest EV battery manufacturer, and they’re planning to mass produce these batteries in the next few months. This isn’t your run of the mill university research press release.

chris222 4y ago
You can already buy these cells in home sogens starting early next year. https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022 https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022
- fbdab103 4y ago
  I do not care for their promo graphics of 10kwh sitting exposed alongside the exterior wall. Were I in a position to be constructing a battery backup, it is going to get its own dedicated concrete shed, separated as far as possible from the house.
  - ace2358 4y ago
    Curious, do you store your care very far away from your house too? I agree with the danger of lithium batteries, I wouldn’t want it attached to my house either!
    - fbdab103 4y ago
      Ha, well GM did inform Bolt owners to stop parking next to the house, so maybe there is something to that logic. Concentrated energy by any other name is a bomb. At least with gasoline, I am fairly confident if/when/where an ignition occurs. With an electronic device with embedded firmwares, I just have to hope that the failsafes are operating.
      - account-5 4y ago
        For the uninitiated, what are the risks with these batteries? Are they likely to explode?

404mm 4y ago

I’m more worried that $5k savings per EV will translate to $500 per EV for the end customer. More than anything, I welcome the switch away from lithium for both economic and environmental reasons.

benj111 4y ago
In the short term maybe. Long term lower prices means more sales -> more economies of scale -> lower prices. So long term I would expect more savings not less.

caycep 4y ago

I think one underlying current is market prediction - i.e. if CATL's solution is more widely available as a supplier to the larger market, will they eventually "TSMC" Tesla's battery tech?

simonebrunozzi 4y ago

It would have been nice if you did read the article before commenting. You might be right about HN and battery articles, most of the time, but in this case it's quite a credible technology and manufacturer.

jimnotgym 4y ago
"Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that". " News.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
theteapot 4y ago
It really does read like a paid fluff piece for CATL. I have a hard time believing that's not the case TBH. > It seems like CATL has made a near-perfect EV battery. So should Tesla be worried? ... Not sure how 160Wh/kg equates to perfection.

rkangel 4y ago

While it's not actually in customers hands, there are two things that make this story different from most: * This isn't a research lab announcing, or even an R&D department. This is a large, respected battery manufacturer announcing an imminent mainstream product * The date for being in customers hands is 2023. This isn't the usual "we just need to work out how to manufacture it and then maybe in 10 years". Next year means "we have this production process worked out and are ramping up as we speak".

koverstreet 4y ago

This month, on "cynical people of hacker news".

jillesvangurp 4y ago

This would be one you can see, buy (from the largest battery manufacturer in the world), and generally be all over of pretty soon. Catl took one of the battery chemistries that you've been reading about and are casually dismissing and made it work. It's a bit of a meme on HN that things aren't real or worth talking about until it solves all your imaginary problems is being mass produced, etc. Of course this is a website run by Y combinator with a diverse audience of technologists, startup people, investors, and generally people interested in learning about new things that might be disruptive, revolutionary, etc. Yes, there are a lot of new battery chemistries. And quite a few of them look like they might eventually make a big difference with some further investments. And most of those are highly of interest to both VCs that are investing in these things and, people involved with other startups in the same space, or people like me that like the idea that there are people out there working on solving some of the harder challenges in this world.

colechristensen 4y ago

Context is important > CATL recently stated that they aim to get their sodium-ion battery into production in 2023 and are already talking with manufacturers about using it in their cars. Ultimately, it seems like CATL is ready to take centre stage in the EV battery race and cause a revolution. This is a major manufacturer claiming plans to begin production in the next year and to already be in sales talks. This is pretty far along the “How real is it” spectrum and a major bump for sodium chemistry batteries which last i knew were more in the “lab stage with major drawbacks”