10 ms·

CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

rini17 4y ago
If they plan large scale as soon as next year, then some physical specimens should be available already. Are they anywhere?
- adrian_b 4y ago
  Sodium-ion batteries with lower energy/mass ratio, but with high endurance and low cost, which are suitable for stationary applications, like storage for solar energy, are already available commercially. Googling finds on-line offers for 48-V, 2.5 to 10 kWh batteries at an energy/mass ratio of 89 Wh/kg (a similar battery with lithium-iron phosphate has 133 Wh/kg), i.e. a little less than half of what CATL is claimed to have achieved. It remains to be seen whether the claims about CATL are true, but the difference between what is claimed and what is already available is not so large as to make the claims incredible. For stationary applications, the sodium-ion batteries already seem a good choice, due to the much lower price than even the lithium-iron phosphate batteries, which have very similar specifications but seem to be 7 to 8 times more expensive.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Paywalled, but CATL already make 1/3rd of all EV batteries, including some to Tesla. Tesla's main supplier, Panasonic only supplies 9% of global demand so the framing of this as a threat to Tesla is weird. The US willingly gave up any chance to lead on this tech (and several related areas) to China, to slightly prolong their hydrocarbon industry. An obviously bad decision for multiple reasons.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Another reason is relatively lax environmental laws for rare earth production and electronics manufacturing. Interestingly, to your point, fracking and other hydrocarbon production techniques, are at least as bad if not worse but seem to get a relatively free pass. That said the advent of a sodium ion technology that’s practical at scale opens the door for competition by decoupling rare earth production from battery costs. Local rare earth saves on tariffs and transportation costs. Sodium earth makes it a raw technological affair and the west is still leading in technological innovation. Manufacturing is already globally spread out for battery production, so raw cost of labor must not be a primary component of cost.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    The last chemistry to use rare earths at scale was NiMH, the "M"(metal) being Lanthanum - also used in catalysts in the oil industry. Li-ion batteries generally don't contain rare earths.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      My bad. I’m better at programming.
- vinaypai 4y ago
  Right now any framing that somehow involves sticking it to Elon Musk guarantees clicks.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Presumably you say that due to energy density. However it discusses that in the article. You’re invited to read.
  - throwawaymaths 4y ago
    Yes, they are comparing currently available lithium tech to unavailable sodium tech even though lithium is hardly fully optimized. It's certainly the case that sodium development benefits from decades of lithium research
- tromp 4y ago
  Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the moment is to cut manufacturing costs, rather than any of the other pie-in-the-sky advantages announced on Battery Day a few years back. > A Model Y's 4680 pack, for instance, is US$3,600 cheaper to manufacture than one with 2170 cells, but even then Tesla is only halfway through with the cost reduction potential of the new technology. It has yet to master and scale the dry-coating cathode method which would bring the pack's cost down US$5,500 compared to the 2170 battery. [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cell-test-reveals-lower-energy-density-in-the-Texas-made-Model-Y.669162.0.html#:~:text=The%20analysis%20returned%20244%20Wh,vehicles%20here%20in%20the%20US https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cel....
  - quonn 4y ago
    Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.
CyanLite2 4y ago
Same article from Dec of 2020. Lots of promises, but no tangible product.
- metadat 4y ago
  Can you provide a link to corroborate this is the typical [sad] battery vaporware? I'm searching but haven't yet found the goods.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    The article links to an article from 10/22 stating they filed with regulators intent to produce in 2023, a year they’ve been promoting for at least three years so seems a fairly reliable indicator of ability to produce. https://www.caixinglobal.com/2022-10-25/catl-aims-to-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023-101955814.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2022-10-25/catl-aims-to-mass-pr...
  - CyanLite4 4y ago
    https://community.bluettipower.com/t/bluetti-new-battery-sodium-ion-are-we-out-dated-again/1958 https://community.bluettipower.com/t/bluetti-new-battery-sod...
noipv4 4y ago
How easy is it to obtain sodium from common salt?
- the_sleaze9 4y ago
  Maybe we could even convert existing mcdonalds locations into battery-swap and electric vehicle charging stations
- isoprophlex 4y ago
  Take the salt, heat it, run current through it. Sodium vapor comes out. Not exactly "easy", but self-contained. From an environmental point of view sodium is absolutely brilliant compared to lithium. Everyone with access to sea water can produce almost 400 g of sodium from 1kg of common table salt. No lithium mining needed. More info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs_cell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs_cell
- nagisa 4y ago
  NaCl is not an applicable source material for these batteries. Na₂CO₃ is going to be the it, for better or for worse.
  - scythe 4y ago
    Mostly because mining trona (actually Na3H(CO3)2*2H2O) is cheaper than the Solvay process. It's not a matter of possibility, it's just the path of least resistance.
hunglee2 4y ago
There is no way that CATL is going to escape the US policy of suppressing China's technological development. Batteries are going to follow SC's - very likely next in line - and Tesla's reliance on CATL batteries is the weak point upon which Musk's empire will fall. Destroying CATL will probably set back EV adoption by some years, replacement suppliers will surely be built if industrial policy continues to be applied
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Any references towards US policy against CATL? Most battery producers build plants in the local region anyways. Surely you don’t think China has been a fair partner in technology and business? That perhaps the Chinese state has conducted systematic espionage to favor its local industry development, mandated technology transfer for market access, established unfair trade policies to favor local business development, and suppressed the success of foreign investment that was purchased at the cost of aforementioned technology transfer?
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    my description of US policy is accurate
- entropicgravity 4y ago
  Chemistry will not be determinant regarding which battery technology will prevail. Cost will be primary and endurance will be next. Tesla's 4680 (yes, it's a can, not a chemistry) automated manufacturing technology will be hard to beat in both cost and endurance. And it's just at the beginning of the learning curve of the manufacturing tech. Competitors will have to be prepared to shell out plenty of cash to keep up. Hard not to notice that even Panasonic would not commit to 4680 manufacturing at scale until they could confirm that Tesla's dry anode tech was viable.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  You can bad CATL and Tesla can continue to serve remaining 90% of EV market
nharada 4y ago
Any battery experts have opinions on this chemistry? My understanding is that CATL is a fairly established operation and far along in development -- what are the remaining risks in using this chemistry?
- tuatoru 4y ago
  Little is known about CATL's secret sauce. But several other groups have been working on other Na-ion chemistries, mostly for stationary storage which has bigger market potential if the price is right. Faradion is working on Na-ion for India's vehicle market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery#Commercialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery#Commerciali...
- tuatoru 4y ago
  IANAE, but from my very brief topic search last month (~50 hours) the risks are competitive, that some other chemistry turns out to be "better" for a major application or that some other company does it better than you. There is always the possibility that someone figures out how to make cheap, safe, reliable, durable, high-current, temperature-tolerant and abuse-tolerant X-air (aluminum-air, lithium-air, or some other common metal or anion -air) batteries. The holy grail of max energy density, volumetric and gravimetric. There are many niches in storage, though, especially in stationary uses. Lifetime cost (10 to 50 years) will dominate for some, sticker (label) price for others.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  CATL as the world's largest manufacturer of batteries is covering the entire battery market and different parts of the market have different requirements. It's less about risk and more about having products with different cost and features. They are diversifying their products and opening up new segments of the market. Sodium ion batteries are interesting because they don't depend on a lot of expensive materials like Lithium and (presumably) don't require a lot of dirty and energy intensive processing. In terms of energy density they are comparable to some of the outdated lithium batteries from a few years ago (i.e. not that impressive but still capable). But in terms of cost, it probably is a massive improvement. And this looks like it should do well in cheap cars as a good enough & cheap enough battery. And of course there is a lot of demand for batteries now beyond cars or transport where energy density simply is not that relevant.
jimnotgym 4y ago
The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it
- throwaway294566 4y ago
  Yes. My question is always "show me the shop where I can buy it". Never an answer ;)
  - api 4y ago
    Lab bench to product can be 15 years or more, so doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other hard thing is beating Li-Ion. It would have to be a lot better or cheaper to beat the economy of scale. Just a little better won’t displace the incumbent.
    - chongli 4y ago
      That's the thing: Lithium ion batteries are not a fixed technology, they're a moving target. They've evolved dramatically and encompass many different chemistries since they first appeared in the lab in the 70's. But since they're all grouped under the name "Lithium ion" people just think of them as a fixed, static, mature technology.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        That's true, but sodium ion batteries are also not a new technology.
    - zeristor 4y ago
      If you can’t get the Lithium it’ll have a chance. Lithium I believe is quite common, it is just increasing supply could take several years.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    CATL doesn't do retail, but you might be able to preorder a sample.
Tade0 4y ago
I've been following the developments around this chemistry since the time Tiamat announced their sodium-ion battery and it appears that in this case it's not all sunshine and rainbows: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s-sodium-ion-ev-battery-shows-we-may-be-betting-on-the-wrong-powerpack https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s...
- throwtheacctawy 4y ago
- adrian_b 4y ago
  Maybe CATL will not be able to deliver what they have promised, but that article is just a piece of garbage that does not prove anything. I could not read it on Bloomberg, but the same article seems to be also available at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/are-investors-betting-on-the-wrong-ev-batteries/2022/11/06/8e302db8-5e27-11ed-a131-e900e4a6336b_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/are-investors... The article begins with a photograph of "A CATL battery pack on display at the IAA Transportation show in Hanover, Germany, on Monday, Sept. 19, 2022". The article does not say whether the pictured battery pack is one with Na-ion or just some random battery pack that does not have any relationship with the article. If the battery pack displayed at Hanover had been a Na-ion, then it would have been weird for CATL to show it if they had discovered problems that would have prevented its production. Also, the article says that CATL have announced last month again that they will start the production in 2023. It would be weird for them to discover just now problems that have not been discovered earlier. After this introduction, the article says repeatedly that despite what CATL hoped, the Na-ion batteries are not good, but then the article fails to provide even a single logically-coherent sentence that says what exactly is not good about them. Until anyone else provides some real information about what might be wrong about the CATL Na-ion batteries, this Bloomberg "analysis" can be safely ignored. There is no doubt that the Na-ion batteries can work fine at energy/mass ratios somewhat lower than lithium-iron phosphate batteries. CATL claims that they have found some means to increase the energy/mass ratio to a value intermediate between that of LFP and that of lithium-nickel/cobalt batteries. It is possible that whatever they have done could affect negatively other battery parameters, but with the possible exception of the lifetime, such problems should have been identified much earlier and CATL should not have continued to say that everything is on track, so even as a rumor report that lacks any concrete information the Bloomberg "analysis" looks more like wishful thinking than like anything plausible. The few numbers given in the "analysis" are wrong. It is said that Na-ion would need an 8 times increase in energy density, which is a claim that would be valid only about the ancient lead-acid batteries. Na-ion needs only a 2 times ... 2.5 times increase in energy density to become competitive in transportation applications. There is some nonsense claim about Na-ion batteries "in certain formulations", which, even if it were true, would say nothing about the CATL batteries, because those do not use those "certain formulations", whichever those might be. I have rarely read any article so illogical as this one.
tschesnok 4y ago
Why does the article do a head to head comparison between the new battery and a "generic" Lithium battery.. and then later we see the specs of the Tesla battery and it is just about identical with the new battery.. but you know.. more energy dense and in production. The differences seem to be more in the rounding range. Sure.. twice the milage.. but show me a car where this matters past 500k. Always clickbait.. Now compare this to some Tesla battery still in R&D...
- benj111 4y ago
  true but if youre going to compare anything to a musk product in R&D then it should probably be cold fusion anti grav cars.
throwtheacctawy 4y ago
rkangel 4y ago
This checklist is the normal sense check on battery announcements. Unless it fails on the last point, AFAIK it passes the test: [ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale. [ ] it will be too expensive for users. [ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles. [ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels. [ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures. [ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable. [ ] it has too short of a lifetime. [ ] its charge rate is too slow. [ ] its materials are too toxic. [ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode. [ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care. [ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then. [ ] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it. [ ] your claims are lies.
Ice_cream_suit 4y ago
This is promising. Níngdé Shídài (aka CATL ) is a credible, multibillion dollar company.
zbrozek 4y ago
I'd really like to know how to buy their cells or get custom packs as a small volume vehicle manufacturer. AFAICT they're impenetrable unless you're a very large customer.
ummonk 4y ago
Reliance in India is planning on manufacturing sodium ion batteries as well, and purchased Faradion - a startup that was designing sodium ion batteries, for this purpose.

If they plan large scale as soon as next year, then some physical specimens should be available already. Are they anywhere?

adrian_b 4y ago
Sodium-ion batteries with lower energy/mass ratio, but with high endurance and low cost, which are suitable for stationary applications, like storage for solar energy, are already available commercially. Googling finds on-line offers for 48-V, 2.5 to 10 kWh batteries at an energy/mass ratio of 89 Wh/kg (a similar battery with lithium-iron phosphate has 133 Wh/kg), i.e. a little less than half of what CATL is claimed to have achieved. It remains to be seen whether the claims about CATL are true, but the difference between what is claimed and what is already available is not so large as to make the claims incredible. For stationary applications, the sodium-ion batteries already seem a good choice, due to the much lower price than even the lithium-iron phosphate batteries, which have very similar specifications but seem to be 7 to 8 times more expensive.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Paywalled, but CATL already make 1/3rd of all EV batteries, including some to Tesla. Tesla's main supplier, Panasonic only supplies 9% of global demand so the framing of this as a threat to Tesla is weird. The US willingly gave up any chance to lead on this tech (and several related areas) to China, to slightly prolong their hydrocarbon industry. An obviously bad decision for multiple reasons.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Another reason is relatively lax environmental laws for rare earth production and electronics manufacturing. Interestingly, to your point, fracking and other hydrocarbon production techniques, are at least as bad if not worse but seem to get a relatively free pass. That said the advent of a sodium ion technology that’s practical at scale opens the door for competition by decoupling rare earth production from battery costs. Local rare earth saves on tariffs and transportation costs. Sodium earth makes it a raw technological affair and the west is still leading in technological innovation. Manufacturing is already globally spread out for battery production, so raw cost of labor must not be a primary component of cost.
- Tade0 4y ago
  The last chemistry to use rare earths at scale was NiMH, the "M"(metal) being Lanthanum - also used in catalysts in the oil industry. Li-ion batteries generally don't contain rare earths.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    My bad. I’m better at programming.
vinaypai 4y ago
Right now any framing that somehow involves sticking it to Elon Musk guarantees clicks.

throwawaymaths 4y ago

Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Presumably you say that due to energy density. However it discusses that in the article. You’re invited to read.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Yes, they are comparing currently available lithium tech to unavailable sodium tech even though lithium is hardly fully optimized. It's certainly the case that sodium development benefits from decades of lithium research
tromp 4y ago
Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the moment is to cut manufacturing costs, rather than any of the other pie-in-the-sky advantages announced on Battery Day a few years back. > A Model Y's 4680 pack, for instance, is US$3,600 cheaper to manufacture than one with 2170 cells, but even then Tesla is only halfway through with the cost reduction potential of the new technology. It has yet to master and scale the dry-coating cathode method which would bring the pack's cost down US$5,500 compared to the 2170 battery. [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cell-test-reveals-lower-energy-density-in-the-Texas-made-Model-Y.669162.0.html#:~:text=The%20analysis%20returned%20244%20Wh,vehicles%20here%20in%20the%20US https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cel....
- quonn 4y ago
  Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.

CyanLite2 4y ago

Same article from Dec of 2020. Lots of promises, but no tangible product.

metadat 4y ago
Can you provide a link to corroborate this is the typical [sad] battery vaporware? I'm searching but haven't yet found the goods.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  The article links to an article from 10/22 stating they filed with regulators intent to produce in 2023, a year they’ve been promoting for at least three years so seems a fairly reliable indicator of ability to produce. https://www.caixinglobal.com/2022-10-25/catl-aims-to-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023-101955814.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2022-10-25/catl-aims-to-mass-pr...
- CyanLite4 4y ago
  https://community.bluettipower.com/t/bluetti-new-battery-sodium-ion-are-we-out-dated-again/1958 https://community.bluettipower.com/t/bluetti-new-battery-sod...

noipv4 4y ago

How easy is it to obtain sodium from common salt?

the_sleaze9 4y ago
Maybe we could even convert existing mcdonalds locations into battery-swap and electric vehicle charging stations
isoprophlex 4y ago
Take the salt, heat it, run current through it. Sodium vapor comes out. Not exactly "easy", but self-contained. From an environmental point of view sodium is absolutely brilliant compared to lithium. Everyone with access to sea water can produce almost 400 g of sodium from 1kg of common table salt. No lithium mining needed. More info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs_cell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs_cell
nagisa 4y ago
NaCl is not an applicable source material for these batteries. Na₂CO₃ is going to be the it, for better or for worse.
- scythe 4y ago
  Mostly because mining trona (actually Na3H(CO3)2*2H2O) is cheaper than the Solvay process. It's not a matter of possibility, it's just the path of least resistance.

hunglee2 4y ago

There is no way that CATL is going to escape the US policy of suppressing China's technological development. Batteries are going to follow SC's - very likely next in line - and Tesla's reliance on CATL batteries is the weak point upon which Musk's empire will fall. Destroying CATL will probably set back EV adoption by some years, replacement suppliers will surely be built if industrial policy continues to be applied

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Any references towards US policy against CATL? Most battery producers build plants in the local region anyways. Surely you don’t think China has been a fair partner in technology and business? That perhaps the Chinese state has conducted systematic espionage to favor its local industry development, mandated technology transfer for market access, established unfair trade policies to favor local business development, and suppressed the success of foreign investment that was purchased at the cost of aforementioned technology transfer?
- hunglee2 4y ago
  my description of US policy is accurate
entropicgravity 4y ago
Chemistry will not be determinant regarding which battery technology will prevail. Cost will be primary and endurance will be next. Tesla's 4680 (yes, it's a can, not a chemistry) automated manufacturing technology will be hard to beat in both cost and endurance. And it's just at the beginning of the learning curve of the manufacturing tech. Competitors will have to be prepared to shell out plenty of cash to keep up. Hard not to notice that even Panasonic would not commit to 4680 manufacturing at scale until they could confirm that Tesla's dry anode tech was viable.
dzhiurgis 4y ago
You can bad CATL and Tesla can continue to serve remaining 90% of EV market

nharada 4y ago

Any battery experts have opinions on this chemistry? My understanding is that CATL is a fairly established operation and far along in development -- what are the remaining risks in using this chemistry?

tuatoru 4y ago
Little is known about CATL's secret sauce. But several other groups have been working on other Na-ion chemistries, mostly for stationary storage which has bigger market potential if the price is right. Faradion is working on Na-ion for India's vehicle market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery#Commercialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery#Commerciali...
tuatoru 4y ago
IANAE, but from my very brief topic search last month (~50 hours) the risks are competitive, that some other chemistry turns out to be "better" for a major application or that some other company does it better than you. There is always the possibility that someone figures out how to make cheap, safe, reliable, durable, high-current, temperature-tolerant and abuse-tolerant X-air (aluminum-air, lithium-air, or some other common metal or anion -air) batteries. The holy grail of max energy density, volumetric and gravimetric. There are many niches in storage, though, especially in stationary uses. Lifetime cost (10 to 50 years) will dominate for some, sticker (label) price for others.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
CATL as the world's largest manufacturer of batteries is covering the entire battery market and different parts of the market have different requirements. It's less about risk and more about having products with different cost and features. They are diversifying their products and opening up new segments of the market. Sodium ion batteries are interesting because they don't depend on a lot of expensive materials like Lithium and (presumably) don't require a lot of dirty and energy intensive processing. In terms of energy density they are comparable to some of the outdated lithium batteries from a few years ago (i.e. not that impressive but still capable). But in terms of cost, it probably is a massive improvement. And this looks like it should do well in cheap cars as a good enough & cheap enough battery. And of course there is a lot of demand for batteries now beyond cars or transport where energy density simply is not that relevant.

jimnotgym 4y ago

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

throwaway294566 4y ago
Yes. My question is always "show me the shop where I can buy it". Never an answer ;)
- api 4y ago
  Lab bench to product can be 15 years or more, so doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. The other hard thing is beating Li-Ion. It would have to be a lot better or cheaper to beat the economy of scale. Just a little better won’t displace the incumbent.
  - chongli 4y ago
    That's the thing: Lithium ion batteries are not a fixed technology, they're a moving target. They've evolved dramatically and encompass many different chemistries since they first appeared in the lab in the 70's. But since they're all grouped under the name "Lithium ion" people just think of them as a fixed, static, mature technology.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      That's true, but sodium ion batteries are also not a new technology.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    If you can’t get the Lithium it’ll have a chance. Lithium I believe is quite common, it is just increasing supply could take several years.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  CATL doesn't do retail, but you might be able to preorder a sample.

Tade0 4y ago

I've been following the developments around this chemistry since the time Tiamat announced their sodium-ion battery and it appears that in this case it's not all sunshine and rainbows: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s-sodium-ion-ev-battery-shows-we-may-be-betting-on-the-wrong-powerpack https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s...

throwtheacctawy 4y ago
adrian_b 4y ago
Maybe CATL will not be able to deliver what they have promised, but that article is just a piece of garbage that does not prove anything. I could not read it on Bloomberg, but the same article seems to be also available at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/are-investors-betting-on-the-wrong-ev-batteries/2022/11/06/8e302db8-5e27-11ed-a131-e900e4a6336b_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/are-investors... The article begins with a photograph of "A CATL battery pack on display at the IAA Transportation show in Hanover, Germany, on Monday, Sept. 19, 2022". The article does not say whether the pictured battery pack is one with Na-ion or just some random battery pack that does not have any relationship with the article. If the battery pack displayed at Hanover had been a Na-ion, then it would have been weird for CATL to show it if they had discovered problems that would have prevented its production. Also, the article says that CATL have announced last month again that they will start the production in 2023. It would be weird for them to discover just now problems that have not been discovered earlier. After this introduction, the article says repeatedly that despite what CATL hoped, the Na-ion batteries are not good, but then the article fails to provide even a single logically-coherent sentence that says what exactly is not good about them. Until anyone else provides some real information about what might be wrong about the CATL Na-ion batteries, this Bloomberg "analysis" can be safely ignored. There is no doubt that the Na-ion batteries can work fine at energy/mass ratios somewhat lower than lithium-iron phosphate batteries. CATL claims that they have found some means to increase the energy/mass ratio to a value intermediate between that of LFP and that of lithium-nickel/cobalt batteries. It is possible that whatever they have done could affect negatively other battery parameters, but with the possible exception of the lifetime, such problems should have been identified much earlier and CATL should not have continued to say that everything is on track, so even as a rumor report that lacks any concrete information the Bloomberg "analysis" looks more like wishful thinking than like anything plausible. The few numbers given in the "analysis" are wrong. It is said that Na-ion would need an 8 times increase in energy density, which is a claim that would be valid only about the ancient lead-acid batteries. Na-ion needs only a 2 times ... 2.5 times increase in energy density to become competitive in transportation applications. There is some nonsense claim about Na-ion batteries "in certain formulations", which, even if it were true, would say nothing about the CATL batteries, because those do not use those "certain formulations", whichever those might be. I have rarely read any article so illogical as this one.

tschesnok 4y ago

Why does the article do a head to head comparison between the new battery and a "generic" Lithium battery.. and then later we see the specs of the Tesla battery and it is just about identical with the new battery.. but you know.. more energy dense and in production. The differences seem to be more in the rounding range. Sure.. twice the milage.. but show me a car where this matters past 500k. Always clickbait.. Now compare this to some Tesla battery still in R&D...

benj111 4y ago
true but if youre going to compare anything to a musk product in R&D then it should probably be cold fusion anti grav cars.

throwtheacctawy 4y ago

rkangel 4y ago

This checklist is the normal sense check on battery announcements. Unless it fails on the last point, AFAIK it passes the test: [ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale. [ ] it will be too expensive for users. [ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles. [ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels. [ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures. [ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable. [ ] it has too short of a lifetime. [ ] its charge rate is too slow. [ ] its materials are too toxic. [ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode. [ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care. [ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then. [ ] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it. [ ] your claims are lies.

Ice_cream_suit 4y ago

This is promising. Níngdé Shídài (aka CATL ) is a credible, multibillion dollar company.

zbrozek 4y ago

I'd really like to know how to buy their cells or get custom packs as a small volume vehicle manufacturer. AFAICT they're impenetrable unless you're a very large customer.

ummonk 4y ago

Reliance in India is planning on manufacturing sodium ion batteries as well, and purchased Faradion - a startup that was designing sodium ion batteries, for this purpose.